[Ace]

Goober has sent many messages, wanting to intergrate Cardinal Spear into the V-T war project, I might as well be clear as to why I have not replied other then a lack of time. I'll probably piss off the entire staff here but I need to be honest:

War Name:
FreeSpace- The Great War: Terran-Vasudan War, V-T War
FS Ref Bible: Terran-Vasudan War, T-V War
T-V War Project: Terran-Vasudan War, V-T War
Ace- The first case of conflict between the Ref Bible and FS1, one of the few cases since the document was written before FS1 was. The name of the project when abbreviated should be the V-T War Project

FS Ref Bible: "...Since the discovery of subspace travel twenty two years ago, mankind has been able to travel and communicate over many star systems.  Subspace travel and communication are used every day, by people in all walks of life."
Ace- The year was 2313

Chapter 1- The Unification War: "...The year is 2317. Thanks to the discovery of subspace..."

FS Ref Bible: "...What started out as a show of strength and technology degenerated into a war of attrition, with both sides suffering heavy losses. Terran and Vasudan ships skirmished in remote areas of space while the politicos flapped their gums on the news. After 14 years, both sides suffered terrible losses, and the end was nowhere in sight."

Chapter 2- Outbreak: "In which the GTA learns of the existence of a new Species, who is not as Friendly as we might like."

Ships:
GTSC Faustus: (Source: FS Ref Bible) "....The Faustus Science vessel was, and still is, a primarily civilian craft. However, in the 14 years since the Terran-Vasudan war began, more and more of these were commissioned by the GTA in order to pursue military research."
Ace- The Faustus has been used during the entire V-T war.

GTC Fenris, GTC Leviathan: (Souce: FS Ref Bible) "...It was later decided that a second line of cruisers would be produced, for defensive purposes, once it became apparent that the V-T war wouldn't be over in a few months. The Fenris led to the GTC Leviathan line of cruisers, produced as mobile defense battleships.  Their speed and maneuverability were greatly reduced in tradeoff for stronger weapons and more powerful hull.  Production was discontinued when the GTA thought they would win the Vasudan war after the Battle of Gulnara, and then the production was started up again after the terrible defeat at the Talania system.  Because of the on-again off-again nature of this vessel's production, almost all of the Leviathan Cruisers have different armaments, but all of them have consistent hulls and speeds."
Ace- Fenris class cruisers were used by the GTA before the V-T war, Leviathans were the one new cruiser class.

GTT Elysium (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...Since the start of space colonization, the standard transport has been used by everyone, civilian and military."
Ace- These have been used since the start of colonization, so 2213

GTFR Poseidon (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...The Poseidon was designed for military purposes, and is easily the strongest freight craft in the fleet."
Ace-Military ship developed then at the start of V-T war.

GTFR Chronos (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...The massive Chronos was never designed for military uses.  A civilian design, it's slow, barely maneuverable, but can move cargo around..."
Ace-Civilian ships that would later be seized for military use due to the attrition of the V-T war.

GTF Apollo (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...The Apollo fighter is the original Space Superiority Fighter in the Terran fleet."
Ace-The Apollo was the first fighter used by the GTA.

GTF Angel, GTF Valkyerie (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...Originally an old design for a space superiority fighter, this fighter was outfitted with bigger engines, and turned into an interceptor..."
Ace- This is one case of contradiction between the reference and the game, the Angel Scout Fighter was not for space superiority. The Angel is already in the V-T war project mods.

Start of the War: (Source: FS Ref Bible) "...The Vasudans had an advanced civilization, a fascinating history, and an evolved culture. They were similar to humans in many ways. Unfortunately, those similarities included irrational fear, and the willingness to sacrifice lives over politics. It didn’t take long for hostilities to break out, and for the first interplanetary war in history to begin.

AP 2/26:  We’ve kept the specifics of the start of the war purposefully vague.  For future elaboration in add-on disks, sequels, and fiction like this."
Ace- Except for Operation Thresher, the war was waged on the frontier with fleets of young men and women dying for politicians on Earth and Vasuda Prime. Consider the war Vietnam in space

Final notes:
The history before subspace travel was kept vague for a reason. There is nothing to state wether or not the GTA was founded before or after subspace travel, if after it was almost immediately after.

Stick to canon, don't write anything more then the canon. Due to the economic problems with both the Terrans and Vasudans there was very little innovation, so the ship classes were limited the GTA and PVN fleets were about as diverse as seen at the start of FS1, the changes were in armaments. If there is room for any new ship in the canon it would be a bomber that would be rendered obsolete at the time of the Angel, and it would similarly have an "Angellic" name scheme probably from Hebrew mythology.

The FS1 tech room has a lot of battles and events such as Talnia, Gulnara, the destruction of an Orion that lacked escape pods, etc. Stick to these events don't invent a "Unification War" and such.

Because this project does not keep with FS canon, and instead uses a "revised FS history" I have not been interested in it. I don't expect or necessarily want you to change because of one whiny person, but I do hope that you make it clear to everyone that this is your vision of the V-T war as opposed to Volition's. Maybe an FAQ would help there?

Now that I've pissed everyone off one final comment: (don't make the mistake I always did five years ago...)

Vasudan Parliamentary Navy (PVN)- Vasudan Military Forces
Vasudan Parliamentary Empire (VPE)- The Vasudan Government

For where the Reference Bible can be downloaded from:
http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads.cfm

One final comment: How can anyone read this forum with this color scheme?

[Solatar]

Talk to Eishtmo about story, I guess we'll wait until he gets here. If something isn't canon, it's his fault.

Well...not really...

[Goober5000]

Um...

Okay, you have succeeding only in confusing me.  I'm not ticked off, and I don't know what your problem is beyond this one paragraph:

Because this project does not keep with FS canon, and instead uses a "revised FS history" I have not been interested in it. I don't expect or necessarily want you to change because of one whiny person, but I do hope that you make it clear to everyone that this is your vision of the V-T war as opposed to Volition's. Maybe an FAQ would help there?

We're trying to keep as close to FS canon as possible.  We're consulting heavily with Eishtmo on this, who has thought about this in-depth and has developed a timeline that we're using.  Yes, a bunch of stuff is made up, but we're making every effort to follow FS canon, as well as trying to remain as consistent as possible with user-made campaigns (this is why I've been interested in including Cardinal Spear).

The Unification War is not part of the Terran-Vasudan war itself - it's a conflict that takes place just before it, and leads to the founding of the GTA.  Although the UW starts in 2317, that doesn't mean subspace was discovered in 2317.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Um...

Okay, you have succeeding only in confusing me.  I'm not ticked off, and I don't know what your problem is beyond this one paragraph:

We're trying to keep as close to FS canon as possible.  We're consulting heavily with Eishtmo on this, who has thought about this in-depth and has developed a timeline that we're using.  Yes, a bunch of stuff is made up, but we're making every effort to follow FS canon, as well as trying to remain as consistent as possible with user-made campaigns (this is why I've been interested in including Cardinal Spear).

The Unification War is not part of the Terran-Vasudan war itself - it's a conflict that takes place just before it, and leads to the founding of the GTA.  Although the UW starts in 2317, that doesn't mean subspace was discovered in 2317.

I like the style of both your mods and Eishtmo's story, but if this is intended to be kosher FS you need to sacrifice a lot of creative flair.

Practically no new ship mods are needed as most of the ship designs were used during the entire war, no unecessary backplot, the Unification War can be considered that because all that is important is at the start of the V-T war the GTA exists as a pan-galactic Terran state.

The easiest way to make things canon-compliant is to keep things simple. Only a few mods, a few weapons, things that are absolutely needed to balance out the game.

Also trying to be compliant with other campaigns doesn't work very well. When I made Cardinal Spear years ago it was pretty horrid on making up things as it went along, and I'm not proud of that.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Ace
I like the style of both your mods and Eishtmo's story, but if this is intended to be kosher FS you need to sacrifice a lot of creative flair.

Yeah, but creativity is what makes a mod fun.  This isn't a ten-mission thing - we plan to have several chapters with a dozen or so missions each.  It'd get boring pretty fast if you didn't get new toys to play with.  Besides, war breeds innovation.

EDIT: And we're not claiming this to be hard-and-fast canon, either.  It's our campaign, after all.  Only Volition stuff is canon.

Practically no new ship mods are needed as most of the ship designs were used during the entire war

How do you figure that?  Yes, the Apollo was around for a while, but that doesn't mean there weren't revisions and add-ons.  We plan to have the Apollo A, Apollo B, Apollo C, and Apollo D.

Also trying to be compliant with other campaigns doesn't work very well. When I made Cardinal Spear years ago it was pretty horrid on making up things as it went along, and I'm not proud of that.

I didn't say it wasn't difficult.  And if something is too out-of-place, we could drop it.  But we're making every effort to be as compliant as possible while also being creative and fun.

[Taristin]

So there, you big party pooper.

*runs from Acy*

[Ace]

Originally posted by Goober5000


Yeah, but creativity is what makes a mod fun.  This isn't a ten-mission thing - we plan to have several chapters with a dozen or so missions each.  It'd get boring pretty fast if you didn't get new toys to play with.  Besides, war breeds innovation.

EDIT: And we're not claiming this to be hard-and-fast canon, either.  It's our campaign, after all.  Only Volition stuff is canon.



How do you figure that?  Yes, the Apollo was around for a while, but that doesn't mean there weren't revisions and add-ons.  We plan to have the Apollo A, Apollo B, Apollo C, and Apollo D.



I didn't say it wasn't difficult.  And if something is too out-of-place, we could drop it.  But we're making every effort to be as compliant as possible while also being creative and fun.

Well then instead of saying that it's heavilly canon based just say it's your take on things

[Goober5000]

But... it is heavily canon-based.  Just not canon itself.

[Solatar]

Originally posted by Goober5000
But... it is heavily canon-based.  Just not canon itself.

Exactly...

[Eishtmo]

Ace, I've read your original post and I can only say one thing:

What the hell are you talking about?  Seriously, you have a bunch of snippets from the Bible (which I have, mind you), and none of them seem to center on any particular issue or problem you have.  Frankly, I'm just confused.

I will, however, clarify a few things.

1)  The Unification War was created because I personally believe that the GTA (an Alliance, which implies independent states) could not have formed without some level of bloodshed.  I did not detail it in any way shape or form save for some background stuff I used for the No War, No Peace campaign.  It is my invention, not based on any canon information at all, just a educated guess and any work being done on it is by the rest of the staff with me acting as advisor.  Personally, I'm waiting for us to get the actual war before I start really throwing my weight around.  However, the website apparently is mistaken.  The U War should have started in 2313, not 2317.  It was finished by 2316.

2)  I don't call it the T-V War, or the V-T War.  It is the 14 Year War to me, mainly because there is a chance of another war between the two species.  In any case, it's and issue of semantics, nothing more.  Same goes for the PVE, PVN issues (I believe these are used in game, which trumps the Bible).

3)  The ship thing has me the most confused.  Yes, the Faustus and the Fenris were used before the war (the Fenris I had dated back to the end of the U War in fact).  The other ship issues you have seem to be, well, silly.  I'll leave it at that.

4)  Big one.  I am not "rewriting" Freespace history.  THERE IS NO HISTORY TO REWRITE!  

We’ve kept the specifics of the start of the war purposefully vague. For future elaboration in add-on disks, sequels, and fiction like this.

They didn't CREATE a history, only a few vague references to past events.  To this end, I have included all said events (or as many as I could find) into the timeline.  Talinia, Gulnara, Operation Thresher, Vega Engagement, deployment of the Leviathan, etc, etc, etc.  The rest HAD TO BE INVENTED.  I did my best to create something that would take into account all the events yet still be believable given what little we actually know of the universe and expand the war into something vaugely historical.  I have made some leaps (for example, when it says "subspace discovered" in the Bible, I take it to mean inter-system subspace), but all were done with the best of intentions.

To be perfectly honest, I don't care if you merge Cardinal Spear into this or not.  Actually, I think I would prefer if it was left out.  We can't dictate the 14 Year War to the Freespace community, and by allowing objects to exist outside its domain, we can let everyone else keep their views of the events there in.

However, we should be willing to share ideas and models and such with each other to try to refine our differing view points.

[Ace]

Alright, I do need to clarify myself a bit. I never intended to have a condesending tone in my post.

From what little is stated in FS1, the GTA is a loose organization for mutual protection and exploration. The founding of the GTA does not require a war.

If Volition wanted the history of the GTA to be more turbulent, when FreeSpace 2 was written that backstory would have been added in.

In my first post the long and chaotic bit of snippets and comments covers a few things:
1) Semantics, on that topic:

2) I don't call it the T-V War, or the V-T War. It is the 14 Year War to me, mainly because there is a chance of another war between the two species. In any case, it's and issue of semantics, nothing more. Same goes for the PVE, PVN issues (I believe these are used in game, which trumps the Bible).

PVE isn't used in FS1 or FS2's official campaigns It is used though a lot in fan made missions, it's a common mistake.

2)  The fact that there don't need to be many ship mods except for variants because the GTA fleet hardly changed in 14 years.
3) Epic space opera events did not occur until the latter portions of the war other then some notable events such as Talnia, Gulnara, etc.

There actually is an FS history, it is divided into the random tech room snippets, and vague comments in the FS Bible but they do come together to show what the V-T war was like. They don't give a lot of detail but they show the overall mood.

I have no intention here of saying any of your work is bad, I just disagree with how it seems to look from the material that has been released.

Anyway, going on an earlier comment, if there is no backstory as Eishtmo is saying how can the campaign be heavilly canon based? (okay now I'm just being a jerk with that comment )

Anyway, I do hope though that this will have more people interested in doing their own projects in this period based on their own ideas as opposed to one fan-fiction storyline being used by everyone.

More then anything with this thread, I'm just trying to make those pesky private messages I was being sent stop

Also it seems like there is a real lack of 'debate' on what events during the V-T war were like. Maybe this might spark some discussion of what people want to see?

[Taristin]

Glastarofa. Huk no trowa shlaxu. Histrana Terran nosw 'aksham!

[GrandAdmiralAbaht]

Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Glastarofa. Huk no trowa shlaxu. Histrana Terran nosw 'aksham!

whaa???

In other news.......................

I believe that Volition intended for the 14 Year War to be an era of ruin for both Terran and Vasudan species, it was hinted in the FS2 techroom that the war would end with the total destruction of both species.  I mean the war was FOURTEEN YEARS LONG!!!!
Think of what WWI or WWII would have been like if they lasted that long?  The Earth would have been ruined!  I say at least a quarter of the planet's population would have been killed!

The last cutscene in FS says that it was the Terrans and Vasudans' ability to adapt that allowed them to survive the Shivans.  In a 14-year war, you need to be able to adapt in order to win.  The Terrans must have gone through a multitude of combat ship models throughout the course of the war.  Most would probably be declared failures after a year, but in war, you send what you can.  Maybe the Apollo A was the first fighter, but it probably was not the only fighter.  In the Great War, the Terrans are spitting out new models and weapons every fifith mission, I highly doubt they did not invent anything other than the Apollo throughout the war.

When you are lacking in information, you must think of the most rational facts to fill the gaps.  There's an actual expression for it, but it slips my mind at this time.

[Eishtmo]

Originally posted by Ace
Alright, I do need to clarify myself a bit. I never intended to have a condesending tone in my post.

I could say something, but I won't.

From what little is stated in FS1, the GTA is a loose organization for mutual protection and exploration. The founding of the GTA does not require a war.

It is possible, but given current events in the real world, do you really think its likely?  I wish I was that optimistic.

If Volition wanted the history of the GTA to be more turbulent, when FreeSpace 2 was written that backstory would have been added in.

No they wouldn't.  In fact, they said quite clearly that there was no detailed history of anything before the Great War.  Nothing, nada, zero, zilch, zip.  And after another 32 years, do you think anyone really pays attention to events of 50 years ago, especially after the Shivans and all?  What do you remember of the wars before WWII?  They were bloody and most of the people that fought them are dead.  That's how it would be.

1) Semantics, on that topic:

PVE isn't used in FS1 or FS2's official campaigns It is used though a lot in fan made missions, it's a common mistake.

You're wrong.  Look in the mission briefing for "The Aftermath," Act II, Mission 1.

The PVD Pinnacle will be arriving at the designated check point. This Typhon class destroyer has one of the most skilled crews in the PVE. It will escort the refugees for the remainder of their journey.

It may be used only once, but it was used.  What it means is up for debate, but considering what PVN means, I think it's save to assume that we defined it correctly.

2)  The fact that there don't need to be many ship mods except for variants because the GTA fleet hardly changed in 14 years.

Abaht actually has part of the answer already.  Its unlikely that on a full war footing the GTA would use the same pieces of junk at the end of the war as they did at the beginning.  The only military I know that did this was the Japanese during WWII, and look how they faired.  The other part is that most of the models we're introducing were nearly obsolute when the war started anyway.  The Apollo (all versions), Angel, Athena and others are the modern tools for war, with the older versions, Mustang and such, retired as soon as they were no longer tactically viable.  In any case, there's no way the fleet didn't change over the course of the war, it simply isn't logical.

3) Epic space opera events did not occur until the latter portions of the war other then some notable events such as Talnia, Gulnara, etc.

Epic space opera?  Did you just say that?  Have you ever seen a documentary on a war, any war?  The number of stories, large and small in any war is huge!  But only a few select ones, usually about battles that change the tide of war, are remembered by the public at large.  Talinia and Gulnara count in this respect.  They were notable battles, but there had to been others.  The entire point of this project is to fill in the gaps of the war, tell those stories.  If we left it up to you, we'd have three battles and Operation Thresher.  That's it, nothing more.  That project doesn't interest me, and anyone else, in the least.

There actually is an FS history, it is divided into the random tech room snippets, and vague comments in the FS Bible but they do come together to show what the V-T war was like. They don't give a lot of detail but they show the overall mood.

Durrrrrr.  Didn't I just say that?  The point of the project is to fill in that detail, flesh out this conflict, and show why the mood that exists at the begining of FS1 is what it is.

I have no intention here of saying any of your work is bad, I just disagree with how it seems to look from the material that has been released.

Anyway, going on an earlier comment, if there is no backstory as Eishtmo is saying how can the campaign be heavilly canon based? (okay now I'm just being a jerk with that comment )

If you want to argue my 14 Year War timeline, I'll happily post it again and we can argue it until our fingers bleed.  The fact is that only a handful of people have even attempted a timeline for the war, and mine is the biggest, the baddest, and the closest to canon possible.  And that's how it should be defined, not as "heavily canon based," but "as close to canon as possible."

Anyway, I do hope though that this will have more people interested in doing their own projects in this period based on their own ideas as opposed to one fan-fiction storyline being used by everyone.

Don't look at me, I never said I wanted this to be the official history, that was people like Flaser who were saying that.  I just created the most likely timeline from what little was known.

More then anything with this thread, I'm just trying to make those pesky private messages I was being sent stop

Have you tried saying no?  It be a hell of a lot easier than writing half of what you wrote.

[Goober5000]

I only sent you a few PMs, Ace... and only because I was trying to get you at a time when you were online, and I wasn't sure if you had gotten any or accidentally deleted them.  If you had replied with a "sorry, not interested" PM I would have stopped immediately.

But trust us when we say that we've already had a lot of discussion and thought on this (especially Eishtmo) and for the most part we know what we're doing.

EDIT: Dates on the website have been fixed.

[killadonuts]

Oh boo hoo
As long as it's a good campaign I could care less about canon

Ace must not have anything better to whine about these days

[Gloriano]

i agree with Ace

[phreak]

if its quality and fun, who cares?

[Taristin]

People are taking this too seriously. I could see if we were making an epic WW2 battle, and we want to have things as they happened, but this is not real life, so get over it.  If you like the idea of a new campaign that'll fill the gaps between the timelines a bit, then DL it and have fun. Otherwise, I guess it really doesn't matter, does it?

[Stealth]

There are many reasons why the TVWP isn't interested in you