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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Mika on March 24, 2009, 05:26:39 pm

Title: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on March 24, 2009, 05:26:39 pm

Decided to make a thread of the old games you'd like to show to those young ones.

Recent reviews of HAWX reminded me of the ground breaking Falcon 3.0 (1991, Spectrum Holobyte): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf4oaUZMpFw

It seems boxy, old and 320x240ish, with antiquated MIDI sound, but the war room music still brings a tear to eye. It's like seeing your old friend again. From the Youtube clip, you can see some of the back then state of the art video clips in home computer, all that made you wanna go kick some ass and become a fighter pilot also. The whole game really oozes that Cold War feeling. Surprisingly, there videos for being captured and being killed also, including your own funerals!

In comparasion to nowadays flight simulators, Falcon 3.0 is certainly not realistic. The missiles miss far more often in F3 as in the recent installations, emphasizing gun play and dogfighting skills. I recall I had almost fool-proof method of jamming all missiles in there. All these factors combined make F3 more fun than the recent sims. But it was certainly not an arcade game!

Surprisingly, the wingman and enemy AI was actually pretty good and could hold its own against human player (though it had a different flight model), though it was possible to defeat six MiG-29s alone and with guns only. However, the AAA was quite murderous on bombing missions, and it was really not really possible to see those SAM missiles after they were launched. Also, the introduced high fidelity flying model required the mathematical co-processor, which wasn't always shipped with even 486 class computers.

The dynamic campaign was introduced in F3 and made the new standard for campaigns. Very few simulators can reach the dynamic happenings of F3 back in its day, let alone now (though Falcon 4 is totally alone in its class). It was actually possible to see those tiny ground units fighting against each other, can also men running around, especially after firing Maverick to their favourite tank. All units in the game could be found from the unit information screen

The game casing was a surprise, especially for those who bought Falcon 3.0 Gold when it was available. It had three different aircrafts (F-16, MiG-29, F/A-18), and each of them had a 300+ pages long manual describing everything from the weapons usage to 20 page introduction to why there is a conflict in some region. Included also was flight path maps of the region! The 45 minute long Art Of Kill video was a virtual lesson for virtual pilots in dogfighting, video is lectured by a instructor pilot.

Instead of HAWX, I think they should actually do a Falcon 3.0 -type game with updated graphics and sound effects since for general population, Falcon 4.0 type realism is simply too much to learn. But on the other hand, I find it difficult to understand why the genre has progressed so little in many terms compared to Falcon 3, though Falcon 4 is an exception. Not many simulators include dynamic campaigns. Not many simulators include flight planning and resource management up to arming the weapons to aircraft. Advances have happened in the area of flight modelling, sounds and graphics.

Waiting for your posts about your favourite oldies!

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mobius on March 24, 2009, 05:41:59 pm

Uhm...I noticed something interesting about Falcon 3's intro...  :eek:

The F-16 pilot's voice is that of the American F-14 pilot who scored the second MiG-23 kill in the skies above Libya.

Proof (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSimVE5NyMw)

Listen carefully to the F-14 pilot before and after the kill.  :nod:

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on March 24, 2009, 05:54:54 pm

Quote

Uhm...I noticed something interesting about Falcon 3's intro...

I know. I think there was also something related in the Art Of Kill video.

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Rick James on March 25, 2009, 12:39:41 am

Raptor: Call of the Shadows.

It came before Tyrian and dammit, it's just better.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Dilmah G on March 25, 2009, 05:27:42 am

Oh this takes me back. That Falcon 3.0 Menu music really brings on the nostalgia

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 25, 2009, 06:13:50 am

Still have Falcon 3.0 Gold, though I'm not sure it works...

Actually, being a bombing fiend, I got pretty good at dealing with SAMs after launch. AAA was murderous though, Shilkas were priority targets...and I admit when my frustration ramped up too high I might have gone Red Flag and dropped GBU-12s on them on occasion. :p

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Dilmah G on March 25, 2009, 06:40:20 am

Quote from: NGTM-1R on March 25, 2009, 06:13:50 am

Still have Falcon 3.0 Gold, though I'm not sure it works...

Actually, being a bombing fiend, I got pretty good at dealing with SAMs after launch. AAA was murderous though, Shilkas were priority targets...and I admit when my frustration ramped up too high I might have gone Red Flag and dropped GBU-12s on them on occasion. :p

:lol:

I play LOMAC now, fulfills my Hardcore Simming for the time being

Big learning curve though, not for n00bs

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 27, 2009, 09:19:19 pm

I don't think I even played computer games was born yet :lol: when that came out. My first computer game was AoE2... lol

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on March 28, 2009, 07:15:13 pm

Then another ground breaking game: Dune II, The building of a dynasty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tppjzT-su0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKclZnrWglU (one of three endings of the game)

This is the original Westwood's game that levelled the ground for real time strategy games in a same way as Wolfenstein 3D started shoot-em-ups. It was followed in 1995 by Command & Conquer (freeware nowadays). Dune is actually a sci-fi novel written by Frank Herbert (pretty good one), one was partially copied by George Lucas in Star Wars. In short the novel happens in a desert planet called Arrakis (or Dune), and it is the home of the heavily mutagenic substance called Spice that space navigators consume while navigating through stars. This substance is required by massive amounts in the space empire, and the only source is Dune. The harvesting is trusted to some large faction (called houses) by time. The book is about the destruction of house of Atreides by the deceit perpetrated by house of Harkonnen when the harvesting permissions were given to them. In the end, after much warring and battling house of Atreides is rebuilt and starts a new emperor dynasty.

Unfortunately, Dune II only borrows the surface layer of the novel and has very little to do with the original novels by itself. However, the game was pretty good by that time so this thing is overlooked. Today, the graphics are again 320x240ish and units look like toys you used to play with in a sandbox but back then were very sufficient. There is surprisingly large amount of speech in the game, even to the point it informed the player about every single unit being destroyed "Sardaukar destroyed" etc. Some times this caused the sound buffer overflow when multiple units were destroyed in short sequence, some of them screaming, some of the exploding and game happily playing victory tune of each unit blown up. Besides, "Construction complete" can still be found from modern Westwood games!

In the technology tree there was a general progression towards more powerful units, more powerful unit being almost always a better choice than the weaker. Infantry were pretty much useless in the game, it pretty much has no purpose. Airforces consisted of attack aircraft and carryalls, carryalls being more useful for repair and increasing the resource gathering speed. Each of the houses had their own special tank unit, Harkonnen heavy Devastator has self-destruct capability with massive damage to surroundings, Atreides being the most humane eliminate their enemies by the blasts of the Sonic Tank and Ordos clan has the bastardly Deviator that could take control of any enemy unit. All of the houses have ultimate superweapons also, Atreides having the disappointing Fremen infantry unit (which in book could dominate about anything on ground), Ordos having the invisible saboteur (massively useful) and Harkonnen the inaccurate but massively destructive Death Hand missile (Save and Reload anyone!).

It is more clear that the nowadays user interfaces with RTS type games have been improved. Back then with Dune II it was necessary to instruct every single unit at a time, there wasn't group movement. Also, attack, move and retreat instructions were issued from a list, this being a quite slow method. Add in the "Affirmative" -acknowledgement by all units when touched, it turned out to be quite annoying. Especially when that giant sandworm came up to eat your expensive newly constructed Siege Tanks.

The enemy AI is relatively poor, it mostly sends units as a non-concentrated stream towards your base through the shortest route, this leading to human player fortifying some areas and neglecting the rest of the base. Missions themselves are just repeats of each others, construct a base and wipe off the resistance, the variation comes from different technologies available. Music reacts to changes, sometimes being catchy and sometimes not especially notable.

All structures in the game had to be constructed on a rock bed, and prefereably on concrete slabs, otherwise they tended to break apart when exposed to hard conditions on the planet surface. The powerplants were the most annoying, as the structures were quite weak and tended to wear off in ten minute interval. Repairing of the structures was though easy, just clicking the repair button. But this tended to get irritating after 10 missions of the same. Other than that, the structures are pretty much standard nowadays: light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicles, heavy vehicles and airborne unit factories plus the additional black space market building. Refineries and silos for financing, windtraps for power, outposts for radar and palaces for superweapons. There were two different types of defensive turrets also, difference being mostly in the range.

That's about it for this time, waiting for your favorites!

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Scotty on March 29, 2009, 01:10:36 am

MechCommander.  The original.  Probably pretty recent to you old folks (;)), but it was forever ago for me.

It was one of the only RTSs I've ever seen where you don't actually build the units in a given map.  The ones you started with, and the ones the enemy started with (barring units arriving from outside) were it.  You could salvage the 'Mechs if they weren't completely destroyed, but you couldn't completely repair them unless you had gotten a lucky headshot and done no real damage to the 'Mech itself.  I was amazed by how the weapons on the 'Mechs could actually be destoyed by hits, with arms and legs going flying off after enough damage.  Even better was the tactical decision to either destroy a 'Mech fast so you wouldn't take too much damage, or take it down surgically, and use it to bolster your forces now that they were down some.

The missions were kind of blah.  Go find this person.  Now blow up this base.  Repeat.  Oh wait, now here's a convoy to blow up.  Sometimes you get the rare gem of a mission where you have to make a running retreat from overwhelming enemy forces.  The variety of gigantic metallic killing machines, I mean 'Mechs, was really good though.  I will always love an Atlas 100 ton Assault 'Mech going toe to toe with a Clan Mad Cat, lasers and missiles flying everywhere.

The AI was lacking.  It always came the same direction for every different playthrough, as if the designers had scripted every move it could make, and left no room for seat-of-the-pants piloting.  One of the funnier parts was how if you destroyed a vehicle, the pilot would run out and try to find another one to get into.  When he comes out, you can pop a laser into him and watch one of the original blood showers.  Or step on him for laughs.  Decent support options made the game really easy unless you were on the highest difficulty.  In at least one mission, you could finish the whole thing by not moving and just airstriking the target.

The fact that it's BattleTech only makes it better.  Oh, if only it would come back again!

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Hellstryker on March 29, 2009, 04:47:44 am

My vote goes to Fury 3 and Pax Imperia: ED. I'd go into more detail as to why, but I'm too tired :p

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: lostllama on April 01, 2009, 02:54:38 pm

Didn't have Falcon 3.0 but I played a bit of F-16 Combat Pilot (by Digital Integration), which was the first complex flight sim I think I ever played. That and the original B17 Flying Fortress by Microprose. The latter could get really stressful at times, especially when there're injured crew and engines on fire. Can't recall if it had a multiplayer option but that must have been awesome if it did have one. Hind (also by Digital Integration) was also cool, but very difficult to control. I really liked the troop insertion and evac missions. The older combat flight sims used to come with so much documentation and maps etc, especially the Microprose ones. Don't see that anymore. I can see why flight sims made over the last 10 to 15 years mostly draw a niche group of gamers/simmers these days, but the ones I mostly play (like IL2, LOMAC, sometimes EECH) have scalable realism - which is something I don't think many gamers realise. On the surface, I think most gamers just assume they are too hardcore and not something they can pick up and play easily, i.e. that they'll need months of practice before they can have any fun with them. But in most flight sims, that needn't be the case if the realism settings can be adjusted.

I missed out on Dune II, but did pick up Dune 2000 which was basically a C&C: Red Alert clone.

Anyone remember the Secret of Monkey Island? Point-and-click adventures are so dead these days. :( It's due to all these RPGs, if you ask me.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

Quote from: Scotty on March 29, 2009, 01:10:36 am

MechCommander.  The original.  Probably pretty recent to your mom old folks (;)), but it was forever ago for me.

It was one of the only RTSs I've ever seen where your mom don't actually build the units in a given map.  The ones your mom started with, and the ones the enemy started with (barring units arriving from outside) were it.  Your mom could salvage the 'Mechs if they weren't completely destroyed, but your mom couldn't completely repair them unless your mom had gotten a lucky headshot and done no real damage to the 'Mech itself.  I was amazed by how the weapons on the 'Mechs could actually be destoyed by hits, with arms and legs going flying off after enough damage.  Even better was the tactical decision to either destroy a 'Mech fast so your mom wouldn't take too much damage, or take it down surgically, and use it to bolster your mom's forces now that they were down some.

The missions were kind of blah.  Go find this person.  Now blow up this base.  Repeat.  Oh wait, now here's a convoy to blow up.  Sometimes your mom get the rare gem of a mission where your mom have to make a running retreat from overwhelming enemy forces.  The variety of gigantic metallic killing machines, I mean 'Mechs, was really good though.  I will always love an Atlas 100 ton Assault 'Mech going toe to toe with a Clan Mad Cat, lasers and missiles flying everywhere.

The AI was lacking.  It always came the same direction for every different playthrough, as if the designers had scripted every move it could make, and left no room for seat-of-the-pants piloting.  One of the funnier parts was how if your mom destroyed a vehicle, the pilot would run out and try to find another one to get into.  When he comes out, your mom can pop a laser into him and watch one of the original blood showers.  Or step on him for laughs.  Decent support options made the game really easy unless your mom were on the highest difficulty.  In at least one mission, your mom could finish the whole thing by not moving and just airstriking the target.

The fact that it's BattleTech only makes it better.  Oh, if only it would come back again!

You need to play Ground Control, which kicked off that whole limited-units tactical-RTS deal. (Kinda.)

Mechcommander was great fun. Along with Mechwarrior 3, they came the closest of all games to capturing the magic of the Battletech setting.

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Rick James on April 01, 2009, 03:01:18 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

Quote from: Scotty on March 29, 2009, 01:10:36 am

MechCommander.  The original.  Probably pretty recent to your mom's mom old folks (;)), but it was forever ago for me.

It was one of the only RTSs I've ever seen where your mom's mom don't actually build the units in a given map.  The ones your mom's mom started with, and the ones the enemy started with (barring units arriving from outside) were it.  Your mom's mom could salvage the 'Mechs if they weren't completely destroyed, but your mom's mom couldn't completely repair them unless your mom's mom had gotten a lucky headshot and done no real damage to the 'Mech itself.  I was amazed by how the weapons on the 'Mechs could actually be destoyed by hits, with arms and legs going flying off after enough damage.  Even better was the tactical decision to either destroy a 'Mech fast so your mom's mom wouldn't take too much damage, or take it down surgically, and use it to bolster your mom's mom's forces now that they were down some.

The missions were kind of blah.  Go find this person.  Now blow up this base.  Repeat.  Oh wait, now here's a convoy to blow up.  Sometimes your mom's mom get the rare gem of a mission where your mom's mom have to make a running retreat from overwhelming enemy forces.  The variety of gigantic metallic killing machines, I mean 'Mechs, was really good though.  I will always love an Atlas 100 ton Assault 'Mech going toe to toe with a Clan Mad Cat, lasers and missiles flying everywhere.

The AI was lacking.  It always came the same direction for every different playthrough, as if the designers had scripted every move it could make, and left no room for seat-of-the-pants piloting.  One of the funnier parts was how if your mom's mom destroyed a vehicle, the pilot would run out and try to find another one to get into.  When he comes out, your mom's mom can pop a laser into him and watch one of the original blood showers.  Or step on him for laughs.  Decent support options made the game really easy unless your mom's mom were on the highest difficulty.  In at least one mission, your mom's mom could finish the whole thing by not moving and just airstriking the target.

The fact that it's BattleTech only makes it better.  Oh, if only it would come back again!

Your mom need to play Ground Control, which kicked off that whole limited-units tactical-RTS deal. (Kinda.)

Mechcommander was great fun. Along with Mechwarrior 3, they came the closest of all games to capturing the magic of the Battletech setting.

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

Play with the Atlas in a 3025 Battletech RPG. Then you'll understand.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: lostllama on April 01, 2009, 03:04:51 pm

BTW, anyone that's played Dune II (or not, even) might find this of interest: http://d2tm.duneii.com/ (http://d2tm.duneii.com/). It's a fan remake. I haven't actually tried it, but the AI is supposed to be an improvement on the original.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: The E on April 01, 2009, 03:10:01 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

What Rick James said. Also, it looks awesome, can soak up a lot of damage and deal massive amounts of it, and pick something like a Locust up and hit others with it. (As long as the Locust is incapacitated, that is) To elaborate further, since in the RPG all weapons have more "realistic" ranges, having an Atlas provide medium to close range support, as well as sheer intimidation value, is really really comforting (or scary, dependant on which side the Atlas is on). In post-3050 games, the Atlas loses some of it's stature, but still remains pretty awesome, IMHO.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 03:18:33 pm

Quote from: The E on April 01, 2009, 03:10:01 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

What Rick James said. Also, it looks awesome, can soak up a lot of damage and deal massive amounts of it, and pick something like a Locust up and hit others with it. (As long as the Locust is incapacitated, that is) To elaborate further, since in the RPG all weapons have more "realistic" ranges, having an Atlas provide medium to close range support, as well as sheer intimidation value, is really really comforting (or scary, dependant on which side the Atlas is on). In post-3050 games, the Atlas loses some of it's stature, but still remains pretty awesome, IMHO.

Yeah, it's decent all around, but even in 3025 it can't quite reach out and hit the way a lot of other units can. But I concur that playing under RPG rules it's a more intimidating creature.

I think part of it is simply that the Atlas was fluffed as a beast.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: The E on April 01, 2009, 03:27:28 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 03:18:33 pm

Yeah, it's decent all around, but even in 3025 it can't quite reach out and hit the way a lot of other units can. But I concur that playing under RPG rules it's a more intimidating creature.

I think part of it is simply that the Atlas was fluffed as a beast.

Yeah, but it does what it was designed for, when it is used in the way the designers imagined it would be used. After all, taking a Longbow into, say, the canyons, is as bad an idea as going hunting on the wide open plains in an Atlas is.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 02, 2009, 09:11:54 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

Obviously you never played Pirate's Moon... No, actually, the Atlas was quite capable for 3025, and it gets better by 3050 (not counting Clan designs), then goes downhill again by 3055.

No, the real mystery is figuring out where the Battlemaster got its killdeathdestroymachine rep. Ever.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2009, 11:55:33 pm

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 02, 2009, 09:11:54 pm

Quote from: General Battuta on April 01, 2009, 02:59:28 pm

I can't quite figure out where the Atlas got its rep -- it's a mediocre design even in its home time period.

Obviously you never played Pirate's Moon... No, actually, the Atlas was quite capable for 3025, and it gets better by 3050 (not counting Clan designs), then goes downhill again by 3055.

No, the real mystery is figuring out where the Battlemaster got its killdeathdestroymachine rep. Ever.

I played Pirate's Moon. But it had the Annihilator in it.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 03, 2009, 02:00:02 am

Ah yes. Dump-you-on-the-ground-or-your-money-back LB-10X.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: The E on April 03, 2009, 07:13:35 am

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 02, 2009, 09:11:54 pm

No, the real mystery is figuring out where the Battlemaster got its killdeathdestroymachine rep. Ever.

Two Words: Michael Stackpole. Two more words: Hanse Davion. Two last words: Warrior Trilogy.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: BloodEagle on April 03, 2009, 07:53:11 am

Some games that I would like to show the younger generation? Saying that makes me feel old, *grumbles*

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Because they should suffer like I suffered.

Little Nemo: Because it's actually really good, surprisingly.

Smash T.V. (NES): I shouldn't need to validate this.

Quote from: The E on April 03, 2009, 07:13:35 am

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 02, 2009, 09:11:54 pm

No, the real mystery is figuring out where the Battlemaster got its killdeathdestroymachine rep. Ever.

Two Words: Michael Stackpole. Two more words: Hanse Davion. Two last words: Warrior Trilogy.

An excellent series of novels. His X-Wing novels are also worth a go.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 03, 2009, 01:28:19 pm

Quote from: The E on April 03, 2009, 07:13:35 am

Two Words: Michael Stackpole. Two more words: Hanse Davion. Two last words: Warrior Trilogy.

Two Words Obvious Trope?

I have the Warrior Trilogy. What Hanse did is incredible, but it was Hanse, not his 'Mech. TRO:3025 gives the Battlemaster an aura of invincibilty that's more than a little ridiculous.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Scotty on April 03, 2009, 04:24:02 pm

Quote from: BloodEagle on April 03, 2009, 07:53:11 am

Quote from: The E on April 03, 2009, 07:13:35 am

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 02, 2009, 09:11:54 pm

No, the real mystery is figuring out where the Battlemaster got its killdeathdestroymachine rep. Ever.

Two Words: Michael Stackpole. Two more words: Hanse Davion. Two last words: Warrior Trilogy.

An excellent series of novels. His X-Wing novels are also worth a go.

The X-Wing novels kick some serious ass.  Aaron Allston carries them on for a few after the fourth book.  Stackpole also wrote a couple New Jedi Order books, which are pretty good.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: The E on April 03, 2009, 05:06:16 pm

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 03, 2009, 01:28:19 pm

I have the Warrior Trilogy. What Hanse did is incredible, but it was Hanse, not his 'Mech. TRO:3025 gives the Battlemaster an aura of invincibilty that's more than a little ridiculous.

*Consults library* Yes, it does, doesn't it? While the Battlemaster is a good, well balanced machine, it certainly isn't that awesome.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: BS403 on April 08, 2009, 01:30:57 am

Dune II: The Building of a Dynasty is still the best and the toughest RTS that I have ever played.   It's the only RTS I have played but never beat.  The last mission is nearly impossible.  The enemy attacks before you can even get a based up, and they just keep coming.  The best I ever did was destroying about a third of the base with Harkonnen nuke strikes before they attacked en masse and destroyed me.  I did get to the last mission with all the different factions however.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: lostllama on April 14, 2009, 04:14:49 pm

Interstate '76. I took a gamble buying this one, since it got above average but not "must have" reviews, and it was a bit old when I got it. Bought it mostly for the comedic value and its retro style, but it turned out to be a fave of mine. It was bundled with MechWarrior Mercenaries when I bought it IIRC, but I didn't really play the latter. (:nervous:)

This was a vehicular combat game based on the MechWarrior 2 engine and set in an alternative 1976, in which the States is facing an oil crisis and is on the brink of financial collapse after the aftermath of Vietnam and Nixon. The game had you, as Groove Champion (aka "Swinger"), racing driver turned auto-vigilante, attempting to avenge your sister's death by taking on an army of "creepers" (bad guys with armed cars) across the south-western states. It was a bit short, but it was crazy, with a retro feel to the graphics (cutscenes especially) and it had a lot of vehicles to drive that were based on real cars of the decade (although their names were changed). In the story-based part of the game though, you could only drive the Picard Piranha. Weapons included machine guns, cannons, rockets and guided missiles, flamethrowers, mines and guided turret-mounted weapons, amongst others.

It was mission-based and played in a similar way to MechWarrior, in that after each mission components from destroyed vehicles could be mounted on your own, and the combat was sort of similar too. The game had one or two nice touches as well, in particular whilst driving you could ask your buddy Taurus (aka "Stampede") to recite one of his poems, of which there were a fair few.

Some of my all-time favorite random lines from this game include (although there's nothing particularly funny about most of them, they just stuck with me; note - possible spoilers if you're curious and want to get a copy):

Spoiler:

Taurus: It's not all that easy, is it? Killing...people?

Groove: I don't know, this whole thing sounds like a movie.

Taurus: I HATE...movies.

Skeeter: The difference between cars and people...uh....cars are hard to fix.

Taurus: Speed, Groove. Speed is your salvation.

Groove: A duel.

Malochio: You couldn't possibly in your condition! Besides you don't even have a car.

Groove: .... Gimme a bicycle.

..... And of course: NEVER get out of the car.

And the music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JCGZFQZkdc&feature=related) was cool.

*reminisces whilst jiving*

It was followed by a prequel - Interstate 76: Nitro Riders (which I also have), and a sequel called Interstate '82, which was different in that you could actually leave the car (thus breaking the golden rule of the first game!) but you usually got run over really quick.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: InsaneOne on April 14, 2009, 05:08:13 pm

I know they may not be that old but I loved the Battlezone series. The combination of vehicle combat and RTS was so fun, and the AI was smart enough to just shell you to death if given the chance.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Titan on April 15, 2009, 02:52:04 pm

I don't see Close Combat here. I grew up playing that game (well, replaying every demo I could get my hands on)

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Dilmah G on April 15, 2009, 11:50:43 pm

Quote from: Titan on April 15, 2009, 02:52:04 pm

I don't see Close Combat here. I grew up playing that game (well, replaying every demo I could get my hands on)

Yeah, I still play it occasionally (CC5 That is). I think infantry should be more useful against tanks and tanks should be smarter when dealing with each other.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 16, 2009, 07:38:47 am

Quote from: Titan on April 15, 2009, 02:52:04 pm

I don't see Close Combat here. I grew up playing that game (well, replaying every demo I could get my hands on)

I have, and still play, A Bridge Too Far...

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Titan on April 16, 2009, 11:58:12 am

Quote from: NGTM-1R on April 16, 2009, 07:38:47 am

Quote from: Titan on April 15, 2009, 02:52:04 pm

I don't see Close Combat here. I grew up playing that game (well, replaying every demo I could get my hands on)

I have, and still play, A Bridge Too Far...

Can you post it?  :drevil:

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Scotty on April 16, 2009, 06:23:45 pm

I liked IV better.  Battle of the Bulge FTW!

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Titan on April 16, 2009, 07:30:52 pm

Quote from: Scotty on April 16, 2009, 06:23:45 pm

I liked IV better.  Battle of the Bulge FTW!

I know a member of the One-Oh-First that was there. Not Easy Company, though.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mikes on April 20, 2009, 12:40:56 pm

Please do not name the Falcon series in the same sentence or even post as Hawx. They are not even in the same genre.

I really wish they would make a realistic flightsim again someday and as i first heard of a "Tom Clancy game with Planes" i even got my hopes up ... but Hawx, sadly, really is just an arcade action game that has absolutely nothing to do with an actual flightsim or realism of any kind at all.

(If we backtrack to Falcon's glory days then the Hawx aequivalent would be something like SEGA's "Afterburner", but certainly not Falcon :/ lol)

As for a flightsim game that actually balanced realism, action and storyline rather well my vote would go to Chris Robert's Strike Commander.
That game was still recognizable as a flightsim and not totally stripped down to flashy simplisitic action like Afterburner, ... or Hawx.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on April 20, 2009, 03:24:06 pm

Quote

Please do not name the Falcon series in the same sentence or even post as Hawx. They are not even in the same genre.

I know. Falcon 3.0 was really a blast to play when you got good with guns. Out of Sidewinders and Amraams while enemy had missiles? No matter, come get some! MiG-29 expansion was fun, I especially loved the helmet mounted sight, IRST and no G-limiters [I recall tearing off the wings once by pulling 22 Gs]! The problem with gunplay was that the gun had only those 150 rounds that the automatic fire control wasted almost always into a single aircraft. And you could forget using Russian radar guided missiles, they tracked the target maybe the first five seconds.

What it comes to Dune II, the last mission is definately possible to play through without Save&Load, I think me and my friend did it a couple of times with Atreides and Harkonnen. Using Save&Load it became a lot more easier as a single Death Hand missile hit will not wreck your game in the beginning (i.e. save & load until it misses). The mission is easier with Harkonnen, as there is only one Death Hand missile to look out for (and I seem to recall it was also a lot more inaccurate than when playing with Atreides), but one could do some nasty tricks to impending enemy units with Atreides sonic tanks. Of course, we found some creative uses for Harkonnen Devastator and Death Hand missiles in the mission.

The trick in the mission was the placement of rocket turrets, heavy vehicle factory and repair facility so that the enemy had to circle in front of the base defenses. In other words, taking advantage of the stupid AI. We though had to play it something like 20 times until we got the right positioning. I think that for the whole base area, 12 rocket turrets were needed.

First cluster of four turrets were placed to the north east part of the base, close to the first construction yard. The cluster of 2x2 turrets had to be placed pretty much at the edge. The second cluster position is hard to explain, but we found that starting from the middle of the rocky area, there is a rocky extension towards north. We placed the second 2 by 2 cluster of turrets at the tip of this extension.

Heavy vehicle factory had to be placed as far to the west and south as possible at that stage of game, and there had to be enough constructions so that enemy had to circle around the rocky extension (north). At this point, computer usually complained that you couldn't construct any more buildings, so you had to go and destroy enemy buildings to be cleared to construct more. Sonic tanks were exceptionally good at this. After destroying some buildings or turrets, the last 2x2 cluster could be constructed. This was usually placed at the edge of north west part of the base. Repair facility was placed close there.

Since the AI usually targetted either the heavy vehicle factory, it ignored the rest of the buildings and tried to get into shooting position for that structure. This is the reason why they then try to circle around the base, ignoring pretty much other structures and got blasted by the rocket turrets. The repair facility attracted enemy units like nothing else. The only thing you had to be careful with was that the heavy vehicle factory was not in range when enemy was circling around the base. Otherwise, it tried to shoot at the factory, possible destroying the building in front of the factory. If the factory was not in range, they didn't try to clear a path through the base.

To the north of the initial position of the construction yard, there is another small rocky area. Atreides players could start to fill this rocky area with sonic tanks from the beginning. The idea behind this is that the enemy ground units usually didn't engage the sonic tanks located here... So this provided a certain amount of free shots before enemy arrived on the base area. You needed a repair facility to repair the damaged units though, as the quads and trikes could attack sonic tanks time by time.

Or somesuch. I don't remember exact details.

By the way, I do remember Interstate '76. For the short period of time I played it, it was pretty fun. I also think I will write about another classic tomorrow.

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on April 22, 2009, 03:08:28 pm

And introducing today, Red Baron by Dynamix 1990.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY5mDKmS_xk

Germans have made a movie with the same name last year. Historical accuracy is not the movie's best part, suprisingly game is more strict in this sense. However the flight model of the game most likely does not represent what it was in reality. Given the time frame the game was made, I suppose this was the best they could achieve. Back then with a 486DX33 the framerate was quite smooth, and I remember that the aircraft were modelled suprisingly accurately. The ground isn't that great, sometimes it was very possible to lose track of one's location over the front lines simply because there wasn't enough details to see.

The game replaces the flight model with sheer fun factor, though there is some historical accuracy in each aircraft. Sopwith Camel indeed turned easier on the other side, but there is no spins or flat spins involved in the game. It was possible to rip off the wings by exceeding the stuctural maximum speed, and with some aircraft this happened ridiculously easily. The challenge comes from the fact that there is no virtual cockpit nor a padlock view, so pilot has to constantly scan around each view so that he doesn't get surprised.

There were some other interesting details, like when firing weapons in dogfight, pilot most likely has to pull so much lead that there is no line of sight towards enemy aircraft as your airplane's nose hides it! This made up a possibility for quick reversals. Of the mission variety, there are balloon busting and defending missions, stopping bombing raids, escorting bombing raids, patrolling and Zeppelin hunting (available only for Allies). Of these Zeppelin busting was fun but also demanding in terms of ammunition, bombers had accurate gunners behind and destroying them required some amount of tactics. The most difficult missions were Balloon bustings, as the enemy had aircraft defending them and also flak.

In the campaign mode (WWI from beginning to end), each mission was randomly generated, but there is no overall chart that would show how the ground units fared despite of your failures or successes. In the mode, it is also possible to get your own aircrafts (when each became available), paint them accordingly, get promoted to get more wingmen and from performing heroic deeds, getting medals. Time by time, if stationed in the same region as enemy ace, being knights of the skies they usually issued a challenge. Usually mission briefing said man against man above some land mark, but as you became more famous the enemy simply stated to come alone, yet it was allowed for them to have three wingmen.

In the later months of the war, it became increasingly more difficult to stay alive, and in the aircraft by that time, there were no parachutes - this probably was considered as unsportmanship behavior. So if pilot gets hit in mid-air, he only had a fraction of minute to land the aircraft. If that failed, pilot simply died. Other than that, enemy was not willing to let the wounded aircraft to land, so basically getting hit in the air was game over if a miracle didn't happen. Too bad if the injured pilot happened to land on the wrong side of the front line, then he was captured and managed to escape maybe after six months of prison time.

In some other comments, the game itself had an intuitive user interface and in general was programmed remarkably well, I don't recall a single crash & reboot from the time I played the game!

Till next time. I think we still need to revise slightly older generation of games...

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: CP5670 on April 23, 2009, 11:21:10 am

I remember doing many of those things in Dune 2, especially the save/load with the death hands. :D The last mission was easier than the previous one in some ways though, since you were at the bottom of the map. There was a strange issue in the game (which was carried over into C&C and RA) where rocket launchers and sonic tanks could hit rocket turrets from below, but not from above, without getting into their range.

In many missions I set up a repair facility and walled it off on purpose, which made the carryalls drop units into it and drop them back around their original location after they were repaired.

If you hit the 25 unit limit, you could still buy things from the starport, so it made sense to build a lot of the special units first and then buy the rest from the starport.

I remember the Ordos were the weakest side and the hardest to play as. They got rocket launchers and siege tanks later than everyone else, their second to last mission put them in the middle of the map with enemies on both the top and bottom, and their Deviator was pretty useless, missing frequently and having an enormous reload time.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on April 23, 2009, 04:04:30 pm

Speaking of HAWX, Yahtzee has his review available:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/689-Tom-Clancys-H-A-W-X

Personally I'm surprised about his review.

Of Dune II, Ordos big stick was the Saboteur unit. That, along with Deviators, provided the best laughs of the game. Saboteur pretty much required radar to be easily controllable (yes, you could control it) and was probably the most enjoyable super weapon as it required some tactics. Using Deviator on Devastator and self-destructing it next to the Harkonnen Construction Yard guaranteed to happy rest of the game. Or the target could have been that nasty rocket turret battery that didn't allow your units to pass, it was actually possible to destroy rocket turrets with a single hit if you approached them from the right angle - i.e. the opposite of the gun pointing direction.

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: CP5670 on April 24, 2009, 12:24:50 pm

Yeah, self-destructing Devastators was the only good thing you could do with them, but you still had to do it quickly. The units always turned hostile again after moving several squares, or if they ever got hit by anything.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on May 03, 2009, 10:21:42 am

I thought to write something down here also.

Next I would like to remind the older forumites of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdfIfC9BHwQ

Archon. While looking like chess, it proved out to be a lot more different. And much more fun than the occasional chess with set rules. I recall I never got the hang of the units like the guy does here. But I do remember getting my ass kicked by the basilisk just like the AI does in the Youtube clip. Despite inevitably losing the game, you still had to play it - maybe you get lucky this time...

Probably one of the better friendship ruining games released. Good memories, though.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Goober5000 on May 07, 2009, 09:51:41 pm

Is that Trogdor I see on the game board?

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Flipside on May 07, 2009, 11:02:47 pm

I used to love Archon, the trick was to ensure that battles happened on the correct coloured square, Evil pieces were stronger when they entered battle on a Black square, and vice-versa.

Of course, that wasn't helped by the fact the board used to have a 'day/night' phase where the squares slowly swapped colours :/

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Scotty on May 08, 2009, 05:44:43 pm

...

I really feel like bringing up StarCraft, but I don't know if that would count as a 'blast from the past.'

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2009, 05:45:00 pm

Starcraft rules.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 08, 2009, 08:26:13 pm

Going another round with both of the turn-based X-COM games right now...

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: redsniper on May 08, 2009, 08:46:26 pm

TFTD!!?!!? ARE YOU MAD!?!?!

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 08, 2009, 09:18:51 pm

Quote from: redsniper on May 08, 2009, 08:46:26 pm

TFTD!!?!!? ARE YOU MAD!?!?!

I had the ending to TFTD in my reach once. I could have done it, but I never realized the thing about launching my Levi to T'Leth.

IT WILL BE AGAIN.

Colony assault underway, Lobsterman Commander and Navigator both unconcious, playing "hunt the alien" now.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: redsniper on May 09, 2009, 10:41:51 am

Are you save-scumming or are you iron manning it?

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 09, 2009, 07:01:49 pm

Quote from: redsniper on May 09, 2009, 10:41:51 am

Are you save-scumming or are you iron manning it?

I suppose iron manning it is the most accurate description. I'm saving it, but not very often; once every sixty turns or so. (Should have done it more, I've got a guy stuck on top of the now-gone control device.)

I miss colony assaults on Enemy Unknown. They were so much easier to find the aliens in.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 10, 2009, 07:12:49 pm

I swear there's a bug on TFTD colony assaults so they don't end.

But it doesn't matter!

I BEAT THE ****ING GAME.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Goober5000 on May 10, 2009, 11:12:01 pm

Quote from: NGTM-1R on May 10, 2009, 07:12:49 pm

I swear there's a bug on TFTD colony assaults so they don't end.

Nah, it's just the Lobstermen.  It's incredibly hard to outright kill them without stunning them, and the battles last for so long that they often wake up and go wandering through areas you've already combed over.  It's often necessary to station one guard over each stunned Lobsterman, but even that isn't foolproof in the case of grenades stunning Lobstermen you can't see. :sigh:

Quote

I BEAT THE ****ING GAME.

Congrats!  I couldn't beat it the one time I played it because of the research tree bug.  I need to play it again.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: redsniper on May 11, 2009, 03:41:35 pm

Iron-manning is where you just keep going whatever happens. If you lose a man, you lose a man. If you lose a Skyranger, you buy a new one, etc. Basically, you don't go back and reload a save when something bad happens, you just deal.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: BloodEagle on May 11, 2009, 04:46:18 pm

A new game to add to the list, even though it's not very old.

Uplink: Elite Hacker.  :yes:

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Mika on May 11, 2009, 05:11:12 pm

Your talk of UFO and XCOM reminded me of something little bit earlier: Laser Squad (1988).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-G9Z9mJRLM&videos=WeEK9-3mi-o&playnext_from=TL&playnext=1

The video is taken from Commodore 64 version of the game, I played the Spectrum ZX version of it. I don't remember anymore which of the Laser Squads we had on tape. By browsing through these old titles, it is amazing to note that the gaming itself hasn't evolved much from the situation 20 years ago.

Graphics, sounds and save&load possibilities have been added, but quite a lot of core gameplay mechanics have remained the same. As can be seen, the opportunity fire is quite old concept. The bodies are still left on the ground here, and it is possible to loot equipment from them. I think they added possibilites of units being standing (fast movement, poor aim), crouched (moderate movement, moderate aim) and prone (slow movement, good aim) later on some of the game in this series. There is also destructible objects in the environment even in this game, and they could be utilized to the demise of AI!

The morale of the units had quite an effect on everything they do: if they witnessed the death of their team mate, it was certain to affect their actions in the next turn. If somebody carried heavier equipment, they couldn't move fast and had less action points. And so on. Back then I didn't have that much of concept of tactics (being something like 5 years old), but I do remember this game by getting constantly my arse kicked by the AI and wondering what did I do wrong this time?

This is probably one of the oldest turn-based tactical shooting games I recall. By browsing through Wikipedia on Laser Squad, it is actually mentioned that it is also one of the major factors behind UFO, and even working with Space Hulk, which itself is probably a classic, too bad I never got to see it - the only and the best game reviewing magazine in Finland by that time was raving about the game and it being tense as hell.

Mika

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 11, 2009, 06:44:34 pm

Quote from: Goober5000 on May 10, 2009, 11:12:01 pm

Nah, it's just the Lobstermen.  It's incredibly hard to outright kill them without stunning them, and the battles last for so long that they often wake up and go wandering through areas you've already combed over.  It's often necessary to station one guard over each stunned Lobsterman, but even that isn't foolproof in the case of grenades stunning Lobstermen you can't see. :sigh:

I actually grenaded every Lobsterman corpse (or not-corpse) out of existence just because of this (God I wish you could shoot downed aliens, I hear that's possible in the UFO After*blank* (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UFOAfterBlank) series...), and I eliminated at least 12 aliens on the upper level as well as stunning into infinity the navigator/commander bunch in the control room. (It was six stun bombs.)The lower levels were apparently empty. I swept each level twice, but I only found one more Tenteculat. Partway through the third sweep of the upper level, I just gave up and hauled my prisoners back home.

Currently looking for the X-COM spiritual successors, the UFO Aftermath/Aftershock/Afterlight.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: Flaser on May 11, 2009, 09:33:41 pm

You should try Incubation.

Granted it's more a tactical than a strategy game, but it was still fun.
...and if you bet the original game and want a *real* challenge, play the Wilderness Missions.

Title: Re: Blast from the past
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 15, 2009, 01:09:56 am

Well, I found Aftermath. It's good...but damn, the second Dreamland mission is kicking my ass.

Also, their F-18s look almost indistingushable from their MiG-29s...