Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on January 26, 2006, 04:20:08 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4649606.stm
[q]Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei has announced his resignation, saying Hamas must form the next government following the parliamentary elections.
It comes as the militant Islamic group appeared to be heading for a shock win. [/q]
Hmm.... this could go one of two ways, it seems.
Bad way; end of any dialogue between the PA and Israel, and escalating violence as a result both due to Hamas militancy and Israeli reaction (either retaliatory or pre-emptive).
Good way; encourages Hamas to move away from militancy to diplomacy (akin to the IRA/Sinn Fein in N.Ireland)
Bad way seems more likely based on the quotes in the BBC article at the moment.
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good way is more quoted in swedish news, last night.
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It may sound harsh, but I personally am glad about one aspect of this whole thing - perhaps now the world will see how desiring of peace our Palestinian neighbors are after this, voting for the most hardcore terrorist group around as their government. Not that the previous Palestinian government was any better, but at least Hamas doesn't try to hide who they are.
God help us all.
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This could get interesting. As in: bullets and explosions interesting.
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It may sound harsh, but I personally am glad about one aspect of this whole thing - perhaps now the world will see how desiring of peace our Palestinian neighbors are after this, voting for the most hardcore terrorist group around as their government. Not that the previous Palestinian government was any better, but at least Hamas doesn't try to hide who they are.
God help us all.
I don't think that's been the general international assessment of the situation, to be honest; the Hamas vote appears to be generally viewed as a protest vote against Fatah (principally corruption & the failure to make progress towards a 2 state peace deal), and possibly the general unrest and lack of security in the territories.
It'd be unwise to regard it as some sort of endorsement (by voters) for escalating or even continuing violence at this early stage; Hamas has 2 spheres of operations, one of which is terrorist/militant, and one of which is social (building hospitals, schools, mosques, etc) - the question that we'll need to wait and see answered is which one was key to this election. Certainly the very decision for Hamas to participate democratically in the first place offers some glimpse of hope.
One other thing worth considering is that when Sharon was voted in, he was (probably still is AFAIK) considered a war criminal by the Palestinians; this sort of situation is scarcely unprecedented in that sense, just in that it's the smaller, weaker group this time that have voted in someone the 'other side' considers the devil incarnate.
Of course, if it is an endorsement for terrorism and the eradication of Israel - you have to ask why? I don't think low enough of humanity to assume the majority of hatred comes without some form of rationalisation for it, and it's usually more useful to address that rationalisation than just keep addressing the consequences (of that hatred).
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From what i've seen and read, voters were attracted to HAMAS namely due to their efforts to stamp out corruption and soforth. The fact that this has happened only after HAMAS chose to seriously downplay the violent aspects of their group should go a long way to show that the general populous isn't a group focussed on bloodshed and destruction.
Oh, and Sandwich; it's called optimism. Look it up. :p
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I don't think that's been the general international assessment of the situation, to be honest; the Hamas vote appears to be generally viewed as a protest vote against Fatah (principally corruption & the failure to make progress towards a 2 state peace deal), and possibly the general unrest and lack of security in the territories.
It'd be unwise to regard it as some sort of endorsement (by voters) for escalating or even continuing violence at this early stage; Hamas has 2 spheres of operations, one of which is terrorist/militant, and one of which is social (building hospitals, schools, mosques, etc) - the question that we'll need to wait and see answered is which one was key to this election. Certainly the very decision for Hamas to participate democratically in the first place offers some glimpse of hope.
It is frustrating to see people in the world trying in every which way possible to avoid facing the facts on the ground. Pardon me if I do not continue this specific line of debate - I don't feel like being frustrated. As you said, we'll just have to wait and see.
Of course, if it is an endorsement for terrorism and the eradication of Israel - you have to ask why? I don't think low enough of humanity to assume the majority of hatred comes without some form of rationalisation for it, and it's usually more useful to address that rationalisation than just keep addressing the consequences (of that hatred).
I fully agree. Their hatred is not some sort of out-of-the-blue, irrational hatred. It comes from simple things, such as some children's TV programs (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=906#) (this is an Iranian cartoon, not Palestinian, but it depicts Palestinians and IDF soldiers).
EDIT: There comes a point, Mefustae, when optimism must give way to realism. I don't base my expectations on my hopes. I base my expectations on history, on past experience. Sure, my hopes are that things have changed, that leopards can change their spots, etc. I hope so. But I don't expect it to happen. And that, my friend, is called realism. :)
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*Looks up 'realism'*
Aaaaah, point well made.
However, look at the bigger picture. While you argue that HAMAS will likely never change its views, Israel's (and the United States') complete refusal to even talk with a HAMAS controlled government hardly encourages change.
Edit: (If i'm ever being sarcastic, i'll add a smilie or [/sarcasm], you made a good point and I acknowledge that :))
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
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It may sound harsh, but I personally am glad about one aspect of this whole thing - perhaps now the world will see how desiring of peace our Palestinian neighbors are after this, voting for the most hardcore terrorist group around as their government. Not that the previous Palestinian government was any better, but at least Hamas doesn't try to hide who they are.
God help us all.
Sandwich, this is the problem. I don't doubt there are many blood thirsty Palestinians who would like nothing more than for Islam to rule the world, just as I don't doubt there are zionists in Israel who like to make us all Jewish.
At the end of the day these people are not the majority, they simply appear so because of the violence and strangth of certain singular acts.
When, in France, an extreme right wing political group gained ground in the early stages of an election people did not assume that the majority of the French wanted to kill all darkies (so to speak) - they assumed it was a warning to the established mainstream parties to buck up and get their act together.
Why is it so hard to accept that the Palestinian people are doing the same to their mainstream party?
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It is frustrating to see people in the world trying in every which way possible to avoid facing the facts on the ground. Pardon me if I do not continue this specific line of debate - I don't feel like being frustrated. As you said, we'll just have to wait and see.
I'm not sure I understand you. Remember that, whilst I may be somewhere else, I'm also emotionally distanced by that. Where you are, you have a very good view, but only of certain things and perspectives.
I fully agree. Their hatred is not some sort of out-of-the-blue, irrational hatred. It comes from simple things, such as some children's TV programs (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=906#) (this is an Iranian cartoon, not Palestinian, but it depicts Palestinians and IDF soldiers).
Yes, but why? Why does that sort of cartoon get made?
More importantly, why would it get watched by Palestinians (because these are the people who voted for Hamas, not the Iranians - we all know about that countries foibles)? Why would it be accepted? You're trying to say 'this causes hate, they make them hate'; but not why anyone would want that hatred. What are the simple things that cause it? Why do those simple things exist?
If you want to sit, and confidently say "we're better than them", you have to rise above the easiness of simply assuming hatred never has valid reasons.... understand them, understand why, and thus understand how to overcome it and find peace. 90% of time, those reasons hurt to be realised, and that's why they're ignored.
And no, I'm not saying there's any justification for bombings or violence; not for blowing up a cafe or a bus, nor is there for bulldozing a refugee camp or shooting a protestor in the head. There never is. But not everyone is born to hate, and I doubt many even want to. All they need is an alternative to it.
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Why is it so hard to accept that the Palestinian people are doing the same to their mainstream party?
As far as elections can guage the opinions of a public (i.e. uneven turnout between supporters of one side vs. supporters of the other can't be calculated), the majority of the Palestinian people have voted for Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, as recognized by the EU, UN, US, and any other acronyms you want to throw in there.
Now, I freely admit that it could very well be that the Palestinians were not so much voting for Hamas as they were voting against the (corrupt and ineffective) Fatah. Be that as it may, it's still a worrying outcome.
Yes, but why? Why does that sort of cartoon get made?
More importantly, why would it get watched by Palestinians (because these are the people who voted for Hamas, not the Iranians - we all know about that countries foibles)? Why would it be accepted? You're trying to say 'this causes hate, they make them hate'; but not why anyone would want that hatred. What are the simple things that cause it? Why do those simple things exist?
For a simple reason, although you're not going to like it: because Islam is a religion of Peace (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/). Oh, and make sure to read the "About this site (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm)" page before you start bringing forth the "there's lots of 'normal', peace-loving Muslims" argument - a fact I don't argue against, don't get me wrong. It's just that "lots" != "majority".
If you want to sit, and confidently say "we're better than them", you have to rise above the easiness of simply assuming hatred never has valid reasons.... understand them, understand why, and thus understand how to overcome it and find peace. 90% of time, those reasons hurt to be realised, and that's why they're ignored.
And no, I'm not saying there's any justification for bombings or violence; not for blowing up a cafe or a bus, nor is there for bulldozing a refugee camp or shooting a protestor in the head. There never is.
Never said we were "better" than anyone. Just not as ruthlessly violent.
And dude, have you never watched a Palestinian protest on TV? Or a funeral? Or a celebration? Or a wedding? The crowd always has a sea of weapons, from pistols through assault rifles and on to RPG's, being fired into the air in celebration; did it ever occur to you that the reports of these protestors being shot and killed might be omitting the fact that said protestors were armed? I'm not citing any specific incident here, btw, just a general observation.
But not everyone is born to hate, and I doubt many even want to. All they need is an alternative to it.
Amen and Hallelujah! :nod:
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well, it's not liike there was a lot of love spent between the jews and muslims before israel came into existance. After that and the recurring defeats of the arabs it only got worse...
Maybe the arabs don't like jews, and like them even less when they're not dhimmis?
The same with christians imho: the palestinian christians are only tolerated cause they're second class to the muslims and their numbers are so small; similar in Lebanon where the christian numbers are dropping (though they're with much more). Imagine mid-eastern christians declaring an independent country for themselves, then imagine the muslim outrage at the uppityness of those dhimmis at declaring a 'crusader' state.
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on a semi-related note, didn't Ehud Olmert recently hint that there would be further withdrawls from the West Bank? Yeah, that's going to go down real well with the settlers and right wing.
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As far as elections can guage the opinions of a public (i.e. uneven turnout between supporters of one side vs. supporters of the other can't be calculated), the majority of the Palestinian people have voted for Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, as recognized by the EU, UN, US, and any other acronyms you want to throw in there.
So was Sinn Fein. You know something Sandwich. Your attitude in this whole matter reminds me of that of Ian Paisley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley) in Ireland. He too spent all his time complaining at how Sinn Fein were all terrorists and murderers, refused to see the flaws that existed in his camp and in the end stormed out of the peace talks that eventually lead to the situation we have now in NI simply because Sinn Fein were permitted to actually sit at the table and give their view.
The only way you'll get peace is by allowing the Palestinians to have a voice. They elect Hamas because they feel that they aren't puppets and will put their view across. It's the same reason that lead to Sinn Fein winning seats in the elections just before the ceasefire.
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For a simple reason, although you're not going to like it: because Islam is a religion of Peace (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/). Oh, and make sure to read the "About this site (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm)" page before you start bringing forth the "there's lots of 'normal', peace-loving Muslims" argument - a fact I don't argue against, don't get me wrong. It's just that "lots" != "majority".
I don't believe you can use religion as an excuse for crime, and I don't believe you can stereotype people based on a group of vocal nutters. That site is set up to basically state a pre-conclusion and label Muslims in a certain way; that's what the 'about' page says. to me that's no more factual than sites created to 'detail' the 'Zionist threat', and it's not all that dissimilar to what that cartoon you mentioned does; 'these people hurt someone of my religion, hence all those people must be evil because they were of a different religion'.
It's no more valid, indeed, than calling the Iraq or Afghan wars of recent times an accept by Christian/Zionist/Crusader nations to subjugate and kill Muslims. It deliberately ignores the reasons beyond religion- foreign policy, occupation, long term feelings of injustice - as well as the reasons of global power that act to define the tactics used by militant or terrorist groups. Especially in the PTs, because it's not a case where the Palestinians can retaliate with helicopter gunships and waves of tanks.... so for some of them - tragically - they decide to hit back using themselves as bombs.
The truth is that sort of attitude is an intentionally self-fulfilling one, as it aims to demonise a people in order to justify that demonisation. I'm sorry, and don't mean to cause offense, but i think it's just lazy racism.
Never said we were "better" than anyone. Just not as ruthlessly violent.
And dude, have you never watched a Palestinian protest on TV? Or a funeral? Or a celebration? Or a wedding? The crowd always has a sea of weapons, from pistols through assault rifles and on to RPG's, being fired into the air in celebration; did it ever occur to you that the reports of these protestors being shot and killed might be omitting the fact that said protestors were armed? I'm not citing any specific incident here, btw, just a general observation.
Oh, I'm not denying the right of Israeli troops to defend themselves if fired upon (although does that not extend in converse to Palestinians seeing their houses bulldozed?) - I was actually referencing the various cases of foreign peace activists shot and killed by IDF forces (I believe at least one has been ruled as murder), or run over by bulldozers.
The question is, though, is Israel 'not as ruthlessly violent' because it wants to be, or because it has an overwhelming array of hi-tech weaponry?
Is it not violent in itself to commit assasinations, regardless of how evil the target, using bombs and rockets? To demolish homes in response to once person coming from that area being soft in the head and blowing themselves up? Is it ruthless to wall up a people, particularly when said wall cuts towns in half and off from key agricultural areas?
More importantly, if the positions were reversed, can we really be sure there wouldn't be the same feelings on either side? IIRC, when Israel was still British administered territory, it was terrorism & guerilla warfare by both Arab and Jew that defined the shape of the nascent state.
My heart bleeds when I think of this whole situation; on the one hand, you have a Palestinian populace who feels oppressed and bullied by a larger state which strikes with impunity. On the other, Israel finds themselves surrounded by nations who are at best refusing to acknowledge the states existence, and at worst openly-anti-semitic and calling for its destruction. The only reason I tend to put the onus upon Israel is because Israel has, IMO, more power to make positive change.
The whole situation is almost a microcosm of the failings of humanity (intolerance, suspicion, greed for land and power over others, the desire for vengeance and the cycle of violence), IMO, but for some reason I still think there's room for hope. And I understand the problem of having Hamas in government there, but I don't think it should be viewed as a damming indictment for either the peace process or the Palestinian peoples' wish for one; at least not in these first few days.
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"When you sign up for the wrong team, you get what you deserve." -FS2
Palestine dug it's own grave this time. Way to go.
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So Northern Ireland dug their own grave electing Sinn Fein?
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Old article but I agree with it, although I can't say I understand all the geo-political references(I skipped most of them).
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j123002.html
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Well we all know how much those crazy Yanks like regime change. Maybe now it's time to send in the Abrams.
Gonna be interesting to see how the British government react, given how they accepted Sinn Fein into the political fold.
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I have just enough faith left in humanity to see how this turns out, but I will not be dissapointed if it goes as I expect.
Like I said, wrong team. Kind of a shame.
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Holding a bit tightly to your Kipling, eh, Sandwich?
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
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So was Sinn Fein.
Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.
By contrast, while Hamas has a humanitarian side, it was originally formed for and continues to conduct terrorist actions. The same leaders who control the political policy of Hamas also control its terrorist functions...which have not notably been altered as of late. Until there is some distinct seperation of leadership, then Hamas cannot rightly be regarded as anything like Sinn Fein.
There is a very simple cause for this kind of hate. They needed a scapegoat. The Middle East is not a closed system; the best and the brightest are sent to the West for education all the time. This makes a good way to create someone who can and will lead the masses in revolt in the name of democracy, and so they needed to inoculate the masses, if you will, against such ideas. They adopted the idea of the Little Satan and the Great Satan, giving people someone to hate (and even deflecting hatred, as they blame the Little Satan for all kinds of societal ills that are really their own damn fault) instead of their leaders. This was done so that when the Rebel Leader comes along, there's no hatred for the leadership for him to exploit...and the people most likely to support such a rebellion are deeply hated by the masses. The latter is really a masterpiece if you think about it, in that they essentially created a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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So was Sinn Fein.
Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.
Sinn Fein was known to have its members on the governing group of the IRA; a number of it's higher-ups are former IRA members (if anyone can be a 'former' member). To quote Sinn Féin organiser Danny Morrison at the party's Ard Fheis (Annual Conference) from 1981; "Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?".
i.e. there were known ties between the two organisations. Just putting a different name on it doesn't remove the connection; of course Sinn Fein weren't officially 'part' of the IRA, because the IRA was a purely terrorist movement. They were the political partner of the IRA, inexorably linked to the terrorist organisation but maintaining the fascia of arms-length separation in order to operate within the political sphere (hence the 'ballot box and armalite' quote). How else do you think the IRA could be persuaded to (eventually) give up their weapons and effectively their 'voice', if it wasn't for Sinn Fein being a proxy?
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Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.
You say potato...
The leaders of Sinn Fein are all people who have been members of the IRA (Martin McGuinness certainly, Gerry Adams probably, depending on who you believe). So if Hamas were to state today that they were mearly the mouthpiece for the terrorists and still keep people in charge who have been responsible for ordering attacks on Israel in charge that would make them okay then?
There is a very simple cause for this kind of hate. They needed a scapegoat.
So if your country was invaded and you were kicked out of your house to let someone else settle there you'd have to invent a reason to hate someone?
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It seems nobody in this thread is getting anything right. At all.
Xenocide is the key, that is all.
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You first
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To tell the trusth - I could care less.
They've been at eachothers thoarts for so long that any new about htem is like hearing the same record for hte 100000000000000000th time.
They should just nuke eachother and THEN the middle east will have some peace. :drevil:
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....and you second.
:nervous:
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Oh. My. God. :wtf:
Palestinian woman: You killed my child, that's enough. You ruthless man, let him go.
Israeli soldier: Shut up, old woman!
Young girl: Mother!
Abd Al-Rahman: Be quiet.
Father: You illegitimate atheist, I will kill you.
Israeli commander: Finish him off.
Young girl: Mother! Dear mother, open your eyes. Why isn't our mother saying anything? Dear mother, for God's sake, please don't die.
[...]
Abd Al-Rahman: Oh God, I must take revenge upon these bloodthirsty aggressors, who murdered my father, mother, and brother.
Karim: Abd Al-Rahman, your father was my uncle. You are like a brother to me. Whatever you decide to do, my brother, know that I will stand by your side.
Abd Al-Rahman: Karim, there must be a way to fight these criminals.
Karim: As a matter of fact, I know someone who could help us.
Abd Al-Rahman: God bless you, Karim. who is he?
Karim: Our neighbor's son. His name is Jassem. He has been in a resistance group for some years now, fighting the Israelis.
Abd Al-Rahman: Great, so how can we meet with him?
Karim: I learned today that he has secretly come to the village to visit his family. If we go now, perhaps we can meet with him and ask if we can join the resistance group.
[...]
Jassem: Hurry up, guys. come in.
Abd Al-Rahman: I feel I shouldn't just sit quietly. I must do something.
Jassem: Abd Al-Rahman, would you recognize the criminal officer if you saw him?
Abd Al-Rahman: Of course. How could I ever forget his huge body, his height, and especially the wound on his face?
Jassem: Did you say he had a wound on his face? Where?
Abd Al-Rahman: There was a scar on the left side of his face.
Jassem: The man who turned your family into martyrs is one of the most bloodthirsty Israeli officers. May God curse him for his ruthlessness.
Abd Al-Rahman: Do you know who he is?
Jassem: Yes, I know him well. His name is Ariel. He is a criminal through and through. He shows no mercy, not even for children.
[...]
Jassem: Yesterday, many Israeli soldiers came to the village without warning. They gave the people 15 minutes to leave the village. But the villagers refused to do so, and then, bloodthirsty Ariel gave the order to open fire on the people. All the villagers, including the women and children, were killed.
[...]
Khalil, tell your group members that tomorrow night they must join up with our group. At all costs, we must prevent the barbaric Zionist murdering of our people.
Khalil: Sure, I will do it. The problem is that we are very few. Such an operation requires more men.
Abd Al-Rahman: Can I join your group? Please.
Karim: I want to join too.
Khalil: No. This is impossible, because you've had no training and cannot bear arms.
Abd Al-Rahman: But we have two days to learn how to throw hand grenades and so on.
Karim: We can do it. Please let us, brother Jassem.
Khalil: Accept them, Jassem. There's no other way.
Jassem: Alright, I accept. But you must know that you may become martyrs. None of us knows if he will survive this operation, so you must give this careful thought.
Abd Al-Rahman: I've already thought about this. I will avenge the blood of my family, even if I am killed doing so.
Karim: This is not only in revenge for your father, mother, and brother. This bloodthirsty man must be held accountable for all his crimes. We must not allow these bloodthirsty Zionists to take even one inch of our holy land. If necessary, we will die this way.
Khalil: Well said! I applaud your deep faith.
[...]
Abd Al-Rahman's aunt: Farewell, my dear ones. God willing, you'll be successful. Go, my children. Do not let the enemy beat you. Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine.
[...]
Dawn breaks.
Jassem: We are near the border, where the Zionists want to pass. We will attack them in accordance with our plan. May God be with you, brothers. I now our mission is a hard one, but with God's help we must stop this bloodthirsty enemy. If there are no questions, assume your positions.
Karim and Abd Al-Rahman, you wait here. Here, these are for you. Your role in this operation is very important. While the others are keeping the Israeli soldiers busy, you must throw grenades at them.
Abd Al-Rahman waits for an Israeli military convoy to pass by, and ties a string of grenades around his waist.
Jassem: Brothers, get ready. They are coming.
Abd Al-Rahman: I place my trust in God. Allah Akbar.
It's like Nazi propaganda.
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It's like any propaganda - attempted brainwashing. What's the source?
(I presume it may be referencing the Sabra and Shatila massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre), which is still one of the motivational factors for attacks against Israel and, by extension, Ariel Sharon)
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It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.
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It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.
Ah, so it's Iranian. Well, it's not like we don't know what to expect from them, is it?
To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....). It could even make a good point if they weren't anti-semitic nutcases over there in Iran, and it had shown the consequential cycle of violence and hurt that results, and how vengeance begets vengeance.
Unfortunately it only serves to illustrate the problem that IMO drives the conflict; an unwillingness to actually understand the people who get hurt, and to understand their suffering and thus examine why they respond the way they do.
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At least Abbas isn't quitting:
Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who will keep his post under Palestinian law, had threatened last week to resign if he was blocked from pursuing negotiations with Israel. But he said last night that he was ''strongly committed to implementing the political program for which I was elected."
EDIT: Syntax here is just a bit different than WS. Odd.
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It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.
Ah, so it's Iranian. Well, it's not like we don't know what to expect from them, is it?
To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....). It could even make a good point if they weren't anti-semitic nutcases over there in Iran, and it had shown the consequential cycle of violence and hurt that results, and how vengeance begets vengeance.
Unfortunately it only serves to illustrate the problem that IMO drives the conflict; an unwillingness to actually understand the people who get hurt, and to understand their suffering and thus examine why they respond the way they do.
You're over-thinking it. It's so horrible because it's a bloody children's cartoon.
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I don't believe you can use religion as an excuse for crime, and I don't believe you can stereotype people based on a group of vocal nutters. That site is set up to basically state a pre-conclusion and label Muslims in a certain way; that's what the 'about' page says. to me that's no more factual than sites created to 'detail' the 'Zionist threat', and it's not all that dissimilar to what that cartoon you mentioned does; 'these people hurt someone of my religion, hence all those people must be evil because they were of a different religion'.
Oh, ok, so what you're saying is that the suicide bombers' death cry being "Allah hu akbar", the crowd chants of "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad!", and the declarations of intent to wipe out the infidels... none of that has ANYthing to do with their religion?? Dude, pardon me, but wake the hell up.
No, not all Muslims are terrorist. Not all Arabs are terrorists. And not all terrorists are Muslims. Or Arabs. But the facts speak for themselves, if you (this is a general "you", not specifically singling you out, Aldo) would be willing to listen.
To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....).
Pardon me for being so presumptous, but I do believe that of all the people on HLP, I am the only one who experienced at least some (not all, obviously) of the interaction between the IDF and the Palestinians. So unless you're so naive as to think that you actually can get a better picture of the situation through 30 seconds of footage from the directed and focussed lens of a news team's camera than I saw in 3+ years of actually being there, I'll kindly ask you to take my word on the accuracy of the perception portrayed in that cartoon. If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to hop on a plane and observe things for yourself.
The accuracy of the perception as portrayed in that children's cartoon is about %5. Yes, there have been Palestinian children killed. The circumstances of those deaths, however, are never what you are led to believe by the Western media.
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Oh yes...god forbid thare are actually ANY Isrealis who muder.. Nope, ther are no murderes out there.. only good law-abiding jews...each and every one of them wouldn't harm a fly, let alone level a refugee camp and ran over women with buldozers...
Point - both sides did massive ammounts of c***.
If you ask me a big large fence should be built around BOTH countries, sealing them off from the rest of hte world.
Let them sort it out for themselvs with no contact or help from outside...
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Oh yes...god forbid thare are actually ANY Isrealis who muder.. Nope, ther are no murderes out there.. only good law-abiding jews...each and every one of them wouldn't harm a fly, let alone level a refugee camp and ran over women with buldozers...
and that is soooooo NOT what Sandwich said.
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If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to hop on a plane and observe things for yourself.
And get shot.
Cause the IDF have a real bad habit of doing that to independant observers anbd reporters.
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and that is soooooo NOT what Sandwich said.
Maby not. Maby I did misunderstood him.... alltough I doubt it.
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Oh, ok, so what you're saying is that the suicide bombers' death cry being "Allah hu akbar", the crowd chants of "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad!", and the declarations of intent to wipe out the infidels... none of that has ANYthing to do with their religion?? Dude, pardon me, but wake the hell up.
No, not all Muslims are terrorist. Not all Arabs are terrorists. And not all terrorists are Muslims. Or Arabs. But the facts speak for themselves, if you (this is a general "you", not specifically singling you out, Aldo) would be willing to listen.
Do we say Christians are bound to be evil torturers because of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition? Or because Hitler believed God was behind him? Or we just regard them as a group of nutcases seeking devine justification for committing evil acts, and a promise of heaven so as to recruit? Are you sure it's not just easier to blame Islam than to introspect on the mistakes made?
I also wonder; these people are the dominant ethnic group of that area - would you oppose the concept of them having self-determination? And another thing I wondered - why is it even important to keep these areas? Especially when they will - seemingly - always remain hostile.
Pardon me for being so presumptous, but I do believe that of all the people on HLP, I am the only one who experienced at least some (not all, obviously) of the interaction between the IDF and the Palestinians. So unless you're so naive as to think that you actually can get a better picture of the situation through 30 seconds of footage from the directed and focussed lens of a news team's camera than I saw in 3+ years of actually being there, I'll kindly ask you to take my word on the accuracy of the perception portrayed in that cartoon. If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to hop on a plane and observe things for yourself.
The accuracy of the perception as portrayed in that children's cartoon is about %5. Yes, there have been Palestinian children killed. The circumstances of those deaths, however, are never what you are led to believe by the Western media.
Please don't start this 'blame the Western media' stuff. That's exactly what I was pointing out previously about how easy it is to assume your viewpoint is the only or correct one because it's close to your heart. Tell me, when you were with the IDF, how often would you talk to Palestinians? And when you did, were you armed? Were you in an IDF (military) uniform or accompanied with other troops? Do you know any Palestinians who have had family members killed by the IDF, either intentionally or by accident? Do you know anyone from a refugee camp who has had their home bulldozed?
Now, I am not condoning any sort of praise or encouragement for suicide bombing. That's wrong; any killing, any act of violence committed for revenge is, regardless of the cause or justification, and I believe I've made that very clear in several occasions. What I am saying is, if you strip out their propagandistic endorsement of one side, and instead add in the diamtrically opposed counterpoint, you have a better picture of what the motivations are, why people are hating others.
I don't expect you to be able to see their side; people are blowing themselves up and murdering in the name of these people, attacking your country, why would you even want to? But if you want to ever stop this, you have to understand what drives not just the nutcases with a bomb-belt, but the more rational people who still tacitly or silently support it.
EDIT; in any case, I remember Gank having had family visit there to make a documentary, and he was a lot harsher in his opinion of Israel than I am or would be. I note that a lot of the 'western media' you are so fond of criticising tend to have people on both sides of the fence, as it were (actually, I think that phrase can be literal now); I'd also note that they have no reason to be biased - or are you implying they're pandering to some hidden vast majority of Palestinian immigrants into the predominantly Christian + white Western world?
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Ahh, damn. I had this nice big reply typed up, hit preview, got distracted by someone, and closed the tab.
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Ahh, damn. I had this nice big reply typed up, hit preview, got distracted by someone, and closed the tab.
Curses, eh?
Let's call it a difference of opinion and let it rest; I don't think we'll ever be able to sort of look at our opposing opinion (in this) in the same way as we see our own, because of the way we form these things..... plus, I have too many huge arguments going on already :D