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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on March 11, 2016, 08:49:59 am

Title: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Bobboau on March 11, 2016, 08:49:59 am
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0316/100316-American-devotion-to-religion-is-waning
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 11, 2016, 02:16:40 pm
45% for people aged 18-30 is still a massive number though.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: rubixcube on March 11, 2016, 02:39:51 pm
45% for people aged 18-30 is still a massive number though.

But it's much less than it used to be, and with luck, it should keep shrinking
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Galemp on March 11, 2016, 04:39:25 pm
(http://33.media.tumblr.com/d33669ad30a56312ab952d5ccadd5f9e/tumblr_inline_ni6ymtHccD1t1bqu1.png)

Do you believe that piety or orthodoxy has anything to do with religious devotion in this place? Do you think that's the Gospel they're pandering to now?
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Scotty on March 11, 2016, 06:41:38 pm
45% for people aged 18-30 is still a massive number though.

But it's much less than it used to be, and with luck, it should keep shrinking

The presence or absence of devotion to religion is not a problem in either direction.  The idea that it is somehow to blame for anything (or that its reduction is something to be desired) miss the point.  It may be more frequently used as a tool for rhetoric and demagogues, but I think it's fairly evident that it's not the only thing (or even the worst.  Thank you, Mr. Trump, for proving that at least) that stirs violent passions.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Dragon on March 11, 2016, 08:40:52 pm
I think that reduction in devotion to religion is a very good thing. The problem with religion is that it mandates belief in very much unproven worldviews, some of them rather absurd (for example, much of creationism comes from a literal interpretation of the Bible). This is especially important in the US, since most Protestant churches don't have a central figure that could, like The Pope or The King/Queen of England, officially condemn such ignorant interpretations. These days, influence of religious authorities is usually backwards rather than forwards, so I believe its a good thing to see religion fading away.

Of course, that's not to say that non-religious idiotic beliefs won't arise instead (there's already a lot to chose from). That said, such beliefs usually don't have such "staying power" as organized religions, mostly due to not being so firmly entrenched in the culture, so they're a bit less of a problem.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: rubixcube on March 12, 2016, 12:18:30 am
45% for people aged 18-30 is still a massive number though.

But it's much less than it used to be, and with luck, it should keep shrinking

The presence or absence of devotion to religion is not a problem in either direction.  The idea that it is somehow to blame for anything (or that its reduction is something to be desired) miss the point.  It may be more frequently used as a tool for rhetoric and demagogues, but I think it's fairly evident that it's not the only thing (or even the worst.  Thank you, Mr. Trump, for proving that at least) that stirs violent passions.

As bad as Trump is, he's not as bad as Ted Cruz, coincidentally the most religious candidate in the running for president

My problem with religion is that it gives people an easy tool to justify otherwise horrific acts without requiring logic or reason, and yes I realize their are other ways of achieving this, but faith provides one of the easiest routs to manipulate the uneducated masses
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 12, 2016, 12:39:45 am
Unfortunately, people have found new idols to worship and blindly believe in. Like Chris(t) Roberts and SC.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 12, 2016, 02:04:58 am
Unfortunately, people have found new idols to worship and blindly believe in. Like Chris(t) Roberts and SC.

Heresy!
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 12, 2016, 04:50:21 am
These figures have been going this way for a long while; the thing is, they don't represent an actual drop in 'religious belief' as much as a drop in social pressures to self-identify as religious.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 17, 2016, 03:51:55 am
My problem with religion is that it gives people an easy tool to justify otherwise horrific acts without requiring logic or reason, and yes I realize their are other ways of achieving this, but faith provides one of the easiest routs to manipulate the uneducated masses

It doesn't, though. Leading people by the nose is easy, and has little to do with religion specifically. It could be established with any other kind of tribal affiliation just as well. Better, even, since those are not subject to awkward contradictions. The Southern Baptist's Conference is not overrun with people who hate gays because they are Southern Baptists; it is because the people who are a part of the conference have made hating gays a necessary step to being legitimate in their number. Men made it this way; and of late, men are challenging it as well. Religion was a context, not a predeterminator, of these shifts.

There is also a difference between professing faith and being faithful, or between saying you're religious and being observant. Phantom Hoover touched on it somewhat, but it should be noted it goes deeper; those who attend church regularly tend to be sharply divided from those who don't (and not always for the worse; the divide between Catholics who attend and those who don't actually skews liberal on the attendees side). The divide between professing and being is more subtle politically but tends to be pretty obvious in person. Ted Cruz is the most overtly religious candidate, but he doesn't act particularly like he has actual faith in a deity to apportion justice in and manage the affairs of either this world or the next.

Or to put it another way, I once saw an argument between two Baptist ministers, discussing the family that sheltered Anne Frank and her own family. They had to lie, constantly. One argued that this moral relativism was abhorrent, and an affront to God. The other rebuked him, and said that such compromises to achieve good are a consequence of the human condition; to be imperfect creatures in an imperfect world, wholly dependent on the forgiveness and the grace of the Lord for salvation. The first minister professed his faith, but only the second demonstrated "confidence and trust" in his deity.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: zookeeper on March 17, 2016, 04:46:24 am
Or to put it another way, I once saw an argument between two Baptist ministers, discussing the family that sheltered Anne Frank and her own family. They had to lie, constantly. One argued that this moral relativism was abhorrent, and an affront to God. The other rebuked him, and said that such compromises to achieve good are a consequence of the human condition; to be imperfect creatures in an imperfect world, wholly dependent on the forgiveness and the grace of the Lord for salvation. The first minister professed his faith, but only the second demonstrated "confidence and trust" in his deity.

Or you can reasonably see it exactly the other way around: the first minister demonstrated confidence and trust that what the deity tells you to do is actually the right thing to do regardless of whether it's easy or hard to makes sense to you or not, while the second minister merely professed their faith and clearly did not trust that as long as people follow the deity's commandments, the deity will take care of the rest.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: The E on March 17, 2016, 05:01:04 am
Or you can reasonably see it exactly the other way around: the first minister demonstrated confidence and trust that what the deity tells you to do is actually the right thing to do regardless of whether it's easy or hard to makes sense to you or not, while the second minister merely professed their faith and clearly did not trust that as long as people follow the deity's commandments, the deity will take care of the rest.

Which, in this concrete example, would lead to the inescapable conclusion that the holocaust was god's will....
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 17, 2016, 05:35:07 am
Or you can reasonably see it exactly the other way around: the first minister demonstrated confidence and trust that what the deity tells you to do is actually the right thing to do regardless of whether it's easy or hard to makes sense to you or not, while the second minister merely professed their faith and clearly did not trust that as long as people follow the deity's commandments, the deity will take care of the rest.

Aside from The E's point about how that makes relatively little sense specifically here, the problem you're having is that you are reducing the concept of the divine to something decidedly human and petty, inflexible and even moronic, rather than an omniscient being (and hence one that understands simple facts humans have long grasped, such as not every rule applies equally to every situation and that rules can be perverted to do harm as much as they can be solid guidance about doing good) who genuinely cares for his creations and would forgive them their mistakes in their stumbling efforts to be better, so long as they make a genuine effort.

As Karl Barth spent several thousand pages trying to explain much more magisterially, remember we're talking about God here. Not the Pointy-Haired Boss from Dilbert.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: zookeeper on March 17, 2016, 05:50:50 am
Or you can reasonably see it exactly the other way around: the first minister demonstrated confidence and trust that what the deity tells you to do is actually the right thing to do regardless of whether it's easy or hard to makes sense to you or not, while the second minister merely professed their faith and clearly did not trust that as long as people follow the deity's commandments, the deity will take care of the rest.

Which, in this concrete example, would lead to the inescapable conclusion that the holocaust was god's will....

Well I don't see how that follows at all. Of course "the deity will take care of the rest" did not mean that the deity would prevent all wrongdoing against the believer in this life, neither of the ministers would claim that, and would agree that the nazis were acting against the deity's will.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: zookeeper on March 17, 2016, 06:39:12 am
Aside from The E's point about how that makes relatively little sense specifically here, the problem you're having is that you are reducing the concept of the divine to something decidedly human and petty, inflexible and even moronic, rather than an omniscient being (and hence one that understands simple facts humans have long grasped, such as not every rule applies equally to every situation and that rules can be perverted to do harm as much as they can be solid guidance about doing good) who genuinely cares for his creations and would forgive them their mistakes in their stumbling efforts to be better, so long as they make a genuine effort.

As Karl Barth spent several thousand pages trying to explain much more magisterially, remember we're talking about God here. Not the Pointy-Haired Boss from Dilbert.

I'm as vehemently anti-religion as they come, so naturally I'm not saying the concept of a deity telling you to not lie makes any sense. However, having faith that an omniscient deity knows their stuff and thus that even seemingly petty and moronic commandments must serve some greater purpose even if you can't understand it does not demonstrate lack of faith.

The dumber the deity's commandments seem like, the more faith it requires to stick with them. The minister who is against lying even when nazis come looking for people to cart off to be executed has to have more faith in their deity's great plan than the minister who caves in when the going gets rough and reverts to what even they themselves consider to be faulty human judgement.

Yes, I understand the point that the second minister seems more in tune with what might be seen as the spirit of the purported word of their deity, and not just the letter, but that's little more than favouring one religious interpretation over another. I much prefer it when people hold that kind of watered-down unfanatic religious beliefs incorporating some traces of rationality (as opposed to more literalist interpretations, that is), but I won't call them more faithful because of that.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: z64555 on March 17, 2016, 06:48:10 am
It doesn't exactly help church attendance when members of the church are prosecuted for crimes, such as child molestation.

Also, the promotion of rational thinking and the idea of individuality may have hit some of the younger generations. It really tests one's faith if you must question the reasoning behind passages you've been instructed by your parents/family/priest to "follow to the letter."
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 17, 2016, 12:23:27 pm
My problem with religion is that it gives people an easy tool to justify otherwise horrific acts without requiring logic or reason, and yes I realize their are other ways of achieving this, but faith provides one of the easiest routs to manipulate the uneducated masses

It doesn't, though. Leading people by the nose is easy, and has little to do with religion specifically. It could be established with any other kind of tribal affiliation just as well. Better, even, since those are not subject to awkward contradictions. The Southern Baptist's Conference is not overrun with people who hate gays because they are Southern Baptists; it is because the people who are a part of the conference have made hating gays a necessary step to being legitimate in their number. Men made it this way; and of late, men are challenging it as well. Religion was a context, not a predeterminator, of these shifts.

I have to agree with rubixcube. Obviously, strong convictions can exist in the absence of religion, but the strongest are produced by religion. There's a reason that martyrs and suicide bombers are associated with religion. Unless you believe in an afterlife, there's no selfish reason to sacrifice yourself.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Grizzly on March 17, 2016, 12:29:43 pm
I have to agree with rubixcube. Obviously, strong convictions can exist in the absence of religion, but the strongest are produced by religion. There's a reason that martyrs and suicide bombers are associated with religion. Unless you believe in an afterlife, there's no selfish reason to sacrifice yourself.

I'd agree with you, but as soon as I read this and re-read this I am always reminded of Japanese kamikaze pilots and wondering what religious motivations drove them.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 17, 2016, 12:31:21 pm
Good point. I assume that their motivations weren't selfish.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 17, 2016, 01:12:55 pm
Kamikaze were heavily religiously motivated so IDK what the confusion is.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 17, 2016, 06:42:48 pm
I'd agree with you, but as soon as I read this and re-read this I am always reminded of Japanese kamikaze pilots and wondering what religious motivations drove them.
...Are you serious?

Do you even know what "kamikaze" means?
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 17, 2016, 07:17:08 pm
kami=god
kaze=wind

So yeah, I'd say there was some religious motivation in there.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 17, 2016, 07:22:01 pm
I've always thought that they were mainly motivated by patriotism. Learn something new every day.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Dragon on March 17, 2016, 07:23:05 pm
I'd call it nationalism (I prefer to reserve the word "patriotism" for when this kind of thing doesn't go too far). Actually, the name is a reference to a religious reference, which originally referred to an actual wind. Specifically, one that sunk a Mongol fleet trying to invade Japan. WWII Kamikaze pilots were more motivated by the Japanese ideals of honor and Samurai tradition rather than religion. That said, their devotion to Emperor and their country was reminiscent, in many ways, of religious devotion. He did sort-of hijack Shinto to stir up this devotion even further, but I think that what drove Kamikaze pilots would be better classified as particularly fierce nationalism.

Eastern religions are very different from Western ones, though. Shinto is polytheistic and there are variants of Buddhism that don't involve beliefs in any gods. They're also far more of a personal matter than Western religions. In case of Japan, the Emperor (and through him, the state he was the head of) was practically elevated to a position not unlike that of God. The Japanese blindly believed in Emperor and the authorities in general, taking absurd claims of victories at a face value and volunteering for Kamikaze squadrons. So it might not be religious devotion, but it's very possible to practically make nationalism into religion if the conditions are right.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Bobboau on March 17, 2016, 07:53:46 pm
Trying to separate religion from nationalism in pre WW2 Japan is like trying to separate oil from another slightly lighter oil, after three weeks in a blender. Separation of church and state is a concept utterly alien to most of humanity throughout history. modern western culture is actually kinda weird in that regard.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: perihelion on March 17, 2016, 11:25:20 pm
Trying to separate religion from nationalism in pre WW2 Japan is like trying to separate oil from another slightly lighter oil, after three weeks in a blender.
/me tries applying a separation tower to religion and nationalism
Nah, it's not working for me.  [ducks]
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Bobboau on March 18, 2016, 09:22:13 am
I did not mean lighter by mass/density
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Grizzly on March 19, 2016, 12:31:18 pm
Basically what Dragon said.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 19, 2016, 02:31:16 pm
If you promise someone an exalted afterlife if they kill themselves for your cause then I'd say that's comfortably religious.
Title: Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to new study
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 19, 2016, 04:51:09 pm
I'm now even more convinced that religion is potentially the most powerful form of control.
Spoiler:
Makes me think of Ubuntu and the Vishnans... wait, Ubuntu isn't officially a religion. Ugh.

EDIT: Whoops, Blue Planet spoiler.