[ionia23]

I have just enough faith left in humanity to see how this turns out, but I will not be dissapointed if it goes as I expect.

Like I said, wrong team.  Kind of a shame.

[Grey Wolf]

Holding a bit tightly to your Kipling, eh, Sandwich?

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

[NGTM-1R]

So was Sinn Fein.

Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.

By contrast, while Hamas has a humanitarian side, it was originally formed for and continues to conduct terrorist actions. The same leaders who control the political policy of Hamas also control its terrorist functions...which have not notably been altered as of late. Until there is some distinct seperation of leadership, then Hamas cannot rightly be regarded as anything like Sinn Fein.

There is a very simple cause for this kind of hate. They needed a scapegoat. The Middle East is not a closed system; the best and the brightest are sent to the West for education all the time. This makes a good way to create someone who can and will lead the masses in revolt in the name of democracy, and so they needed to inoculate the masses, if you will, against such ideas. They adopted the idea of the Little Satan and the Great Satan, giving people someone to hate (and even deflecting hatred, as they blame the Little Satan for all kinds of societal ills that are really their own damn fault) instead of their leaders. This was done so that when the Rebel Leader comes along, there's no hatred for the leadership for him to exploit...and the people most likely to support such a rebellion are deeply hated by the masses. The latter is really a masterpiece if you think about it, in that they essentially created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[aldo_14]

So was Sinn Fein.

Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.

Sinn Fein was known to have its members on the governing group of the IRA; a number of it's higher-ups are former IRA members (if anyone can be a 'former' member).  To quote Sinn Féin organiser Danny Morrison at the party's Ard Fheis (Annual Conference) from 1981; "Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?".

i.e. there were known ties between the two organisations.  Just putting a different name on it doesn't remove the connection; of course Sinn Fein weren't officially 'part' of the IRA, because the IRA was a purely terrorist movement.  They were the political partner of the IRA, inexorably linked to the terrorist organisation but maintaining the fascia of arms-length separation in order to operate within the political sphere (hence the 'ballot box and armalite' quote).  How else do you think the IRA could be persuaded to (eventually) give up their weapons and effectively their 'voice', if it wasn't for Sinn Fein being a proxy?

[karajorma]

Were that true, Sinn Fein could not have openly existed in Northern Ireland, elected anyone to Parliament (while the Troubles were ongoing, no less!), and have any of its members openly visit the United States. So either you deny any such events happened or you have knowingly made a very, very poor analogy. Sinn Fein is not and never was a terrorist organization. It associated itself with one, perhaps went so far as to aid terrorists, but it in of itself never conducted any terrorist attacks or did anything more offensive then spout rhetoric.

You say potato...

The leaders of Sinn Fein are all people who have been members of the IRA (Martin McGuinness certainly, Gerry Adams probably, depending on who you believe). So if Hamas were to state today that they were mearly the mouthpiece for the terrorists and still keep people in charge who have been responsible for ordering attacks on Israel in charge that would make them okay then?

There is a very simple cause for this kind of hate. They needed a scapegoat.

So if your country was invaded and you were kicked out of your house to let someone else settle there you'd have to invent a reason to hate someone?

[Scuddie]

It seems nobody in this thread is getting anything right.  At all.

Xenocide is the key, that is all.

[aldo_14]

You first

[TrashMan]

To tell the trusth - I could care less.

They've been at eachothers thoarts for so long that any new about htem is like hearing the same record for hte 100000000000000000th time.

They should just nuke eachother and THEN the middle east will have some peace.

[aldo_14]

....and you second.

[Deepblue]

Oh. My. God.

Palestinian woman: You killed my child, that's enough. You ruthless man, let him go.

Israeli soldier: Shut up, old woman!

Young girl: Mother!

Abd Al-Rahman: Be quiet.

Father: You illegitimate atheist, I will kill you.

Israeli commander: Finish him off.

Young girl: Mother! Dear mother, open your eyes. Why isn't our mother saying anything? Dear mother, for God's sake, please don't die.

[...]

Abd Al-Rahman: Oh God, I must take revenge upon these bloodthirsty aggressors, who murdered my father, mother, and brother.

Karim: Abd Al-Rahman, your father was my uncle. You are like a brother to me. Whatever you decide to do, my brother, know that I will stand by your side.

Abd Al-Rahman: Karim, there must be a way to fight these criminals.

Karim: As a matter of fact, I know someone who could help us.

Abd Al-Rahman: God bless you, Karim. who is he?

Karim: Our neighbor's son. His name is Jassem. He has been in a resistance group for some years now, fighting the Israelis.

Abd Al-Rahman: Great, so how can we meet with him?

Karim: I learned today that he has secretly come to the village to visit his family. If we go now, perhaps we can meet with him and ask if we can join the resistance group.

[...]

Jassem: Hurry up, guys. come in.

Abd Al-Rahman: I feel I shouldn't just sit quietly. I must do something.

Jassem: Abd Al-Rahman, would you recognize the criminal officer if you saw him?

Abd Al-Rahman: Of course. How could I ever forget his huge body, his height, and especially the wound on his face?

Jassem: Did you say he had a wound on his face? Where?

Abd Al-Rahman: There was a scar on the left side of his face.

Jassem: The man who turned your family into martyrs is one of the most bloodthirsty Israeli officers. May God curse him for his ruthlessness.

Abd Al-Rahman: Do you know who he is?

Jassem: Yes, I know him well. His name is Ariel. He is a criminal through and through. He shows no mercy, not even for children.

[...]

Jassem: Yesterday, many Israeli soldiers came to the village without warning. They gave the people 15 minutes to leave the village. But the villagers refused to do so, and then, bloodthirsty Ariel gave the order to open fire on the people. All the villagers, including the women and children, were killed.

[...]

Khalil, tell your group members that tomorrow night they must join up with our group. At all costs, we must prevent the barbaric Zionist murdering of our people.

Khalil: Sure, I will do it. The problem is that we are very few. Such an operation requires more men.

Abd Al-Rahman: Can I join your group? Please.

Karim: I want to join too.

Khalil: No. This is impossible, because you've had no training and cannot bear arms.

Abd Al-Rahman: But we have two days to learn how to throw hand grenades and so on.

Karim: We can do it. Please let us, brother Jassem.

Khalil: Accept them, Jassem. There's no other way.

Jassem: Alright, I accept. But you must know that you may become martyrs. None of us knows if he will survive this operation, so you must give this careful thought.

Abd Al-Rahman: I've already thought about this. I will avenge the blood of my family, even if I am killed doing so.

Karim: This is not only in revenge for your father, mother, and brother. This bloodthirsty man must be held accountable for all his crimes. We must not allow these bloodthirsty Zionists to take even one inch of our holy land. If necessary, we will die this way.

Khalil: Well said! I applaud your deep faith.

[...]

Abd Al-Rahman's aunt: Farewell, my dear ones. God willing, you'll be successful. Go, my children. Do not let the enemy beat you. Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine.

[...]

Dawn breaks.

Jassem: We are near the border, where the Zionists want to pass. We will attack them in accordance with our plan. May God be with you, brothers. I now our mission is a hard one, but with God's help we must stop this bloodthirsty enemy. If there are no questions, assume your positions.

Karim and Abd Al-Rahman, you wait here. Here, these are for you. Your role in this operation is very important. While the others are keeping the Israeli soldiers busy, you must throw grenades at them.

Abd Al-Rahman waits for an Israeli military convoy to pass by, and ties a string of grenades around his waist.

Jassem: Brothers, get ready. They are coming.

Abd Al-Rahman: I place my trust in God. Allah Akbar.

It's like Nazi propaganda.

[aldo_14]

It's like any propaganda - attempted brainwashing.  What's the source?

(I presume it may be referencing the Sabra and Shatila massacre, which is still one of the motivational factors for attacks against Israel and, by extension, Ariel Sharon)

[Deepblue]

It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.

[aldo_14]

It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.

Ah, so it's Iranian.  Well, it's not like we don't know what to expect from them, is it?

To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....).  It could even make a good point if they weren't anti-semitic nutcases over there in Iran, and it had shown the consequential cycle of violence and hurt that results, and how vengeance begets vengeance. 

Unfortunately it only serves to illustrate the problem that IMO drives the conflict; an unwillingness to actually understand the people who get hurt, and to understand their suffering and thus examine why they respond the way they do.

[Grey Wolf]

At least Abbas isn't quitting:

Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who will keep his post under Palestinian law, had threatened last week to resign if he was blocked from pursuing negotiations with Israel. But he said last night that he was ''strongly committed to implementing the political program for which I was elected."

EDIT: Syntax here is just a bit different than WS. Odd.

[Deepblue]

It was the transcript of that cartoon that Sandy linked to.

Ah, so it's Iranian. Well, it's not like we don't know what to expect from them, is it?

To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....). It could even make a good point if they weren't anti-semitic nutcases over there in Iran, and it had shown the consequential cycle of violence and hurt that results, and how vengeance begets vengeance.

Unfortunately it only serves to illustrate the problem that IMO drives the conflict; an unwillingness to actually understand the people who get hurt, and to understand their suffering and thus examine why they respond the way they do.

You're over-thinking it. It's so horrible because it's a bloody children's cartoon.

[Sandwich]

I don't believe you can use religion as an excuse for crime, and I don't believe you can stereotype people based on a group of vocal nutters.  That site is set up to basically state a pre-conclusion and label Muslims in a certain way; that's what the 'about' page says.  to me that's no more factual than sites created to 'detail' the 'Zionist threat', and it's not all that dissimilar to what that cartoon you mentioned does; 'these people hurt someone of my religion, hence all those people must be evil because they were of a different religion'.

Oh, ok, so what you're saying is that the suicide bombers' death cry being "Allah hu akbar", the crowd chants of "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad!", and the declarations of intent to wipe out the infidels... none of that has ANYthing to do with their religion?? Dude, pardon me, but wake the hell up.

No, not all Muslims are terrorist. Not all Arabs are terrorists. And not all terrorists are Muslims. Or Arabs. But the facts speak for themselves, if you (this is a general "you", not specifically singling you out, Aldo) would be willing to listen.

To be fair, you do get an idea of what the justification is, what the perceived (it's up to you to judge how correct that perception is) injustice is there, and why they resort to blowing themselves up (lack of any other option...if you want kill people for revenge, of course, which is always wrong....).

Pardon me for being so presumptous, but I do believe that of all the people on HLP, I am the only one who experienced at least some (not all, obviously) of the interaction between the IDF and the Palestinians. So unless you're so naive as to think that you actually can get a better picture of the situation through 30 seconds of footage from the directed and focussed lens of a news team's camera than I saw in 3+ years of actually being there, I'll kindly ask you to take my word on the accuracy of the perception portrayed in that cartoon. If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to hop on a plane and observe things for yourself.

The accuracy of the perception as portrayed in that children's cartoon is about %5. Yes, there have been Palestinian children killed. The circumstances of those deaths, however, are never what you are led to believe by the Western media.

[TrashMan]

Oh yes...god forbid thare are actually ANY Isrealis who muder.. Nope, ther are no murderes out there.. only good law-abiding jews...each and every one of them wouldn't harm a fly, let alone level a refugee camp and ran over women with buldozers...

Point - both sides did massive ammounts of c***.
If you ask me a big large fence should be built around BOTH countries, sealing them off from the rest of hte world.
Let them sort it out for themselvs with no contact or help from outside...

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Oh yes...god forbid thare are actually ANY Isrealis who muder.. Nope, ther are no murderes out there.. only good law-abiding jews...each and every one of them wouldn't harm a fly, let alone level a refugee camp and ran over women with buldozers...

and that is soooooo NOT what Sandwich said.

[karajorma]

If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to hop on a plane and observe things for yourself.

And get shot.

Cause the IDF have a real bad habit of doing that to independant observers anbd reporters.

[TrashMan]

and that is soooooo NOT what Sandwich said.

Maby not. Maby I did misunderstood him.... alltough I doubt it.