[Flipside]

Yes, we do disagree, because had these images appeared on youTube or Twitter or similar individual outlet, then I could say 'Well, it's all the action of a few idiots, get used to it'. When it starts appearing in magazines and other frontline publications though, it projects an entirely different message.

People insulting Muslims is the action of individuals, as in the case of the movie, but entire companies insulting Muslims projects an entirely different image, as in the case of the cartoons.

Oh, and no, I'm not talking about forcing people to take responsibility beyond the point of law, please don't put words into my mouth, it's about personal responsibility, not governmental responsibility, that's the whole point of Freedom of Speech.

[Scotty]

Freedom of Speech is a right.

Going into a crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" may be free speech, but that doesn't make it okay.
Walking into a crowded bar and calling everyone inside faggots may be free speech, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get your ass kicked for it.
Shouting profanities at the top of your lungs into a quiet suburban neighborhood may be free speech, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to ask you to stop.

Freedom of Speech is a right, but it should be exercised responsibly.  If it's not, it becomes a mockery of itself.

[Dragon]

I wonder why couldn't those Muslims just draw a cartoon making fun of Jesus (or the French, or maybe both) in response. What those French jerks did was stupid and immature, and should be met with an appropriate response (if any).
Also, I wonder what would happen if they made fun of black people instead. I bet nobody would even look at the cartoon before throwing the cartoonists out. The only difference between anti-islamism and racism is the people targeted.

[Flipside]

Thing is, we can ask these people to consider causing a little less death in the world by showing some empathy, chances are they would ignore us and continue anyway, and there's little we can do about that, but that doesn't make what they are saying defensible or right, it's still obnoxious, offensive and dangerous. I would defend their right to be able to draw those pictures, but I'd still think they were assholes for doing so.

There's nothing 'glorious' about this, nothing 'good', nothing that promotes the best the West has to offer the world. Quite the opposite in fact. It's depressing, because the West does have plenty to offer the world, but the actions of a few people hiding behind 'Freedom of Speech' has reduced the odds of anything improving for a considerable amount of time, and we all get branded for it, some people pay the ultimate price for other people's trolling.

People like the Ambassador in Libya put their lives on the line to try and encourage understanding between the two cultures and then some dip**** comes along and not only undoes all the hard work, but infuriates an entire culture to the point where it leads to his death whilst sitting comfortably at their computer. That doesn't forgive his murderers but it does highlight that maybe we should be leaving East-West relations to those who actually know what is going on rather than stereotyping and insulting and undermining all the work that these people put in to try and prevent these kinds of incidents?

[StarSlayer]

I'm not familiar enough with the French publication to do more then speculate, but I assume the cartoon was a reaction to the killings.  People tend to respond more vehemently as a gut reaction then when they have had time to cool off and think.  The Rubicon had already been crossed by the film and the subsequent violence.  I can see the cartoon may have been more of a "**** You! We are not intimidated" response without a real scoping out of the entire problem and consequences.  That type of reaction is natural, especially when anger clouds reason. 

I'm not saying its the right reaction, just that when the fanatics went on a rampage and kill people, they make it a international issue which will garner a spectrum of reactions.  Especially in the West where we don't clamp down on people's  ability to express themselves.  Though it's worth pointing out a rude cartoon is a much more measured and constructive response then hunting down a bunch of random Muslims in Western countries and killing them in revenge.

Again I'm not condoning it, but expecting people as diverse as the west to somehow turn around and act like saints in reaction to this is a bit idealistic, especially when there are so many, many twits.

[Dragon]

The truth is, Muslims are judging us by the actions of a couple of idiots. Another, just as true truth is, we are judging Muslims by actions of a couple of idiots.
The world would've been a much better place if people on both sides would stop for a while, think, and realize that.

[Flipside]

Well, the thing is, both sides are guilty of a knee-jerk reaction to the situation, that is why both sides have to grow up. The defence of 'but we didn't kill anyone!' is a bit thin, because whilst they didn't kill anyone, people still ended up dead, and it was suspected this would happen before the cartoons were ever released.

As I've said before, the film was the act of an individual, stupid action, stupid reaction, but to respond to anger with more anger makes us no better, for all our education.

[achtung]

Also, I wonder what would happen if they made fun of black people instead. I bet nobody would even look at the cartoon before throwing the cartoonists out. The only difference between anti-islamism and racism is the people targeted.

Black people can't choose not to be black. It's wrong to fault people for their genetic structure, but faulting them for beliefs is not the same thing.

[Flipside]

Problem is, that's a very Western take on the issue. In most of these countries Islam isn't just a religion, it's an entire way of life, it defines who these people are.

You may not agree with that, I know I don't, but to Muslims, their faith is fundamental to defining them, asking a Muslim to give up Islam would be like asking him or her to cut off a limb, it would be simply unthinkable to them.

Once again, our biggest error is assuming that everyone, deep down inside, wants to be like us. We always assume that the Middle East is 'jealous' of the West for all its technology and Freedom, but I fear we may be pandering to our own image of ourselves in that case.

[NGTM-1R]

The defence of 'but we didn't kill anyone!' is a bit thin, because whilst they didn't kill anyone, people still ended up dead, and it was suspected this would happen before the cartoons were ever released.

No.

Regardless of your stance on the use of free speech, once someone is out there killing people over speech, it is entirely on them that they have done this. The existence of the cartoons or movie as a provocation can in no way absolve responsibility for the act of murdering people over them.

Yelling fire in a movie theater is treated as unacceptable speech in every justice system in the world regardless of their stance on free speech, because it is recognized that the reasonable response to someone yelling "fire" while you're sitting down to watch The Dark Knight Rises is to attempt immediate escape, so people will do it and probably get injured. There was nothing reasonable about this response and therefore no reasonable way to attach moral culpability to the people who did the speaking.

The act of the filmmaker and the act of the cartoonist are reprehensible, but on their own. The acts of those who killed over these works are even more reprehensible, but also on their own.

[Flipside]

People like the Ambassador in Libya put their lives on the line to try and encourage understanding between the two cultures and then some dip**** comes along and not only undoes all the hard work, but infuriates an entire culture to the point where it leads to his death whilst sitting comfortably at their computer. That doesn't forgive his murderers but it does highlight that maybe we should be leaving East-West relations to those who actually know what is going on rather than stereotyping and insulting and undermining all the work that these people put in to try and prevent these kinds of incidents?

I just love having to repeat myself over and over and over and over, it's great fun....

[Mikes]

Problem is, that's a very Western take on the issue. In most of these countries Islam isn't just a religion, it's an entire way of life, it defines who these people are.

You may not agree with that, I know I don't, but to Muslims, their faith is fundamental to defining them, asking a Muslim to give up Islam would be like asking him or her to cut off a limb, it would be simply unthinkable to them.

Once again, our biggest error is assuming that everyone, deep down inside, wants to be like us. We always assume that the Middle East is 'jealous' of the West for all its technology and Freedom, but I fear we may be pandering to our own image of ourselves in that case.

You are right, we should all try to empathize more with some of those extremists and maybe also start oppressing our women, stone them for infidelity and sentence to death anyone who utters blasphemy against OUR beliefs in our own countries, so we can understand them better. Yup that will work. We'll all be one happy stone throwing family. Maybe we can even meet up to burn each others flags or straw effigies of our presidents or leaders or something.

[Flipside]

You don't know what Empathize means do you? You've gotten confused with 'Emulate'.

[Luis Dias]

Well we just have to imagine we are dealing with 12th century Europe.

Tough job.

[Flipside]

12th Century Europe with 20th Century weapons, which makes the situation even more delicate. But until we get a handle on why these people feel the way they do, there's nothing we can do to change it.

[achtung]

12th Century Europe with 20th Century weapons, which makes the situation even more delicate. But until we get a handle on why these people feel the way they do, there's nothing we can do to change it.

The region is rife with poverty, and poverty breeds religious extremism like nothing else in the world. It doesn't help that the countries where the riots are the worst are just coming off of a revolutionary fervor. Those are pretty glaring issues, and they're issues we can't do too much to fix.

[Flipside]

True, there are some overlying issues that will be very difficult to fix, but there are poor relations between East and West since the early 1900s, with various superpowers encouraging coups and wars between Middle Eastern countries. The resistance to Western influence is as much social as cultural and its going to be a long road to undo the bad feeling that has developed over a large period of time. Even when I was in primary school, the PLO were hijacking planes over the situation in Palestine.

Truth is, the Middle East would be far more receptive to Aid and assistance if it were not for the fact that they simply do not trust our motives, and they believe they have good reason not to. And throwing enormous Mohammed-shaped spanners into the works does less than nothing to help improve that situation.

[NGTM-1R]

I just love having to repeat myself over and over and over and over, it's great fun....

It's one thing to say you don't absolve them once. It's quite another to go through the whole thread using phraseology that can easily be interpreted as doing that wholly or partially. Perhaps if you were to start discussing these things as the ultimately separate acts that they are from a moral standpoint. This sort of separation of actions and assignment of personal responsibility for them is extremely important when discussing these events, because the failure to do so is what causes them.

[Flipside]

I haven't even once said or inferred that the actions of the rioters are acceptable in any way shape or form, what are you talking about? I've said it was tragic, I've said it was stupid of people to deliberately inflame these people into riots, but NOT ONCE have I EVER said that the results were acceptable or justifiable. How dare you infer that?

I want an apology for that comment.

[Flipside]

I'm going to lock this thread, it seems apparent that people are now deciding to be trolling assholes.

And before anyone starts whining about 'Freedom of Speech'... Benevolent Dictatorship. Live with it.

Edit : I MAY re-open it at some point tonight, but if there is a repeat of someone trying to twist my position into one of sympathy with the rioters, it'll be locked straight back up again.