Author Topic: So they banned the Burka ...  (Read 13404 times)

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Offline Mikes

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So they banned the Burka ...

Who you might ask did such a thing? Germany? Nah fat chance. US? UK?

Nope, so who did it?

Well ISIS of course: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1731049/terror-fanatics-demand-women-stop-covering-themselves-up-in-iraq-claiming-face-veils-present-a-major-security-risk/

......

 

Offline jr2

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
:lol:

Always good to see Daesh squirming.  :nod:

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
The Ottomans banned it back in the day, too. Made it too easy for criminals to hide their identities.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
That's not a new idea. Both the Burka (an Afghani full body garment with a face veil) and the Niquab (a regular face-concealing veil) were often subject to regulations on these grounds. It was all too often exploited for concealment by criminals and spies (of both genders, funnily enough). Women covering their faces isn't actually mandated be the most common standards of modesty in the Arab world (indeed, some scholars consider the custom as un-islamic, though obviously Wahabis don't subscribe to that interpretation).

That said, it's hilarious that a Wahabi movement, usually so hell-bent on adhering to their interpretation of Qu'ran to the letter, has gone against its own doctrine for the sake of their own security. I hope that more of this religious nuttery will soon come back to bite them.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
and yet when France does it for the exact same reason all hell breaks loose.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
It's just that France has a thing known as "free press". With, ISIS, on the other hand, all good Islamic citizens agree with every decision of their wise and holy leadership. :)

I kind of hope hell will break loose, TBH. This display of hypocrisy will certainly turn some people off ISIS and may sow discontent in their ranks as well. It'll probably be swiftly quashed (ISIS being what it is), but this certainly won't help their cause. Of course, that's assuming a regular thug of their ever finds out their leadership did something like that. Those far enough from the security zones don't need to know that and I don't think the leadership will be big on telling them. Especially that this means a few top leaders of ISIS were killed either by women or by crossdressers, which can't be good for their image, either. :)

 

Offline potterman28wxcv

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
and yet when France does it for the exact same reason all hell breaks loose.
It has been banned in France after a fight happened between several muslims and non-muslims, because a tourist was taking photos of muslim women with burkas on the beach. The muslim men did not like it, one of the side started fighting, and there you go, more than 10 people punching each others.

This has raised the issue of multi-culturalism once again on the table - and the issue of the discussion was the ban of the burka on french public beaches. The official reason is to avoid fights between the communities.

In ISIS, if i understand correctly, it is banned because some women wearing burkas have been caught killing some of their men. This is clearly not the same reason at all as the French one. I have no idea how you can assimilate the two

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
and yet when France does it for the exact same reason all hell breaks loose.

Because France has turned out not to have a pressing Burka Security Problem for it, rather it ties into weird French cultural issues like their anti-clerical/anti-religion attitude and inability to grasp that anyone would ever call themselves French and not act exactly like a white person from Paris in 1935.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
ISIS does not even pretend to value such blasphemous concepts as "freedom". Not so with France, which is supposed to be a free country, at least in theory. So France banning the burka is indeed hypocritical, IMHO. What happened to liberty?

Quote
and inability to grasp that anyone would ever call themselves French and not act exactly like a white person from Paris in 1935.

If you don the burka, you are "French" maybe on paper, but not in reality. Being French should be about more than just a stamp in a passport, it is a culture, too. You dont need to eat them frogs, but you indeed have to share basic values with a white person from Paris in 1935. Wearing the trash bag casts serious doubt on whether you do.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 01:28:35 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
You dont need to eat them frogs,

Having drawn an arbitrary line, you must realize that it is drivel? Because it is arbitrary, you can no more justify it in one position then you can argue against burkha-wearing being essentially French. France has incorporated a Muslim minority since before World War I and has never needed to ban burkhas as unFrench before now. Indeed, France ruled large portions of North Africa and some of the greatest French patriots of the World Wars were born in French Algeria and gave their lives in defense of or to liberate Metropolitan France. (For which they were promptly ignored, or in the case of WW2, stabbed in the back by De Gaulle bringing in white people to replace them for the parade through Paris.) These people are a fundamental part of the French character and have been for more than a hundred years.

Being a citizen of a country does not even require obeying its laws, otherwise we would strip citizenship with criminal convictions, much less sharing its culture. Ideally, it should involve doing so, and paying taxes, and perhaps even being willing to defend it. By any reasonable analysis, most of France's Muslim citizens have met that burden.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Even simply being a muslim is in conflict with being French, because France is traditionally a christian and secular country. Muslims were extremely rare in continental France before WW2. So it is an obstacle to integration. But it can work as long as we are talking only about some modern, liberal interpretation of islam. Which usually does not involve wearing a burka, tough. Wearing a burka is a huge red flag, it is as bad as wearing a swastika really, and if it is becoming more common then you need to seriously rethink French immigration and naturalization policies to put a stop to it. That said, I dont support any bans on burkas, because for one thing it is an undue violation of the liberty of French citizens, and for another I think it merely hides the problem, not solves it.
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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Wearing a burka is a huge red flag, it is as bad as wearing a swastika really
Don't take this the wrong way, but ... what in the grand **** makes you think these two things are in any way related ? Seriously, one is a symbol that was appropriated by one of the worst regime the world has known in recent history, who engaged in large scale attrocities, the other is a piece of clothing with ties to religion and culture.

Also,
France has incorporated a Muslim minority since before World War I and has never needed to ban burkhas as unFrench before now. Indeed, France ruled large portions of North Africa and some of the greatest French patriots of the World Wars were born in French Algeria and gave their lives in defense of or to liberate Metropolitan France. (For which they were promptly ignored, or in the case of WW2, stabbed in the back by De Gaulle bringing in white people to replace them for the parade through Paris.) These people are a fundamental part of the French character and have been for more than a hundred years.
Good post.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Even simply being a muslim is in conflict with being French, because France is traditionally a christian and secular country.

This is the first sentence that made me say '**** off' aloud in an empty room.

Wearing a burka is a huge red flag, it is as bad as wearing a swastika really

This was the second.

I'll happily accept a warning for this post if another mod wants to give me one, but somebody really needs to tell you in no uncertain turns to **** right the hell off.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Don't take this the wrong way, but ... what in the grand **** makes you think these two things are in any way related ? Seriously, one is a symbol that was appropriated by one of the worst regime the world has known in recent history, who engaged in large scale attrocities, the other is a piece of clothing with ties to religion and culture.

Burka is a symbol of islamic extremism and ultra-conservative interpretations of islam, which is an ideology / regimes responsible for oppressing millions of people around the world and certainly more dangerous and prominent than nazism in recent history (post WW2). Burka and swastika are thus very much comparable as symbols of hatred, bigotry and totalitarianism.

Now I dont think either of those symbols should be banned, but they certainly both should be condemned.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
it's also an extreme conservative right wing ideology.
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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
What the actual ****. Are we seriously going to compare an extreme form of prudeness to the swastika, which symbolizes racial purity and an ideology which actively encourages ethnic cleansing?

...

**** off.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
it's also an extreme conservative right wing ideology.

Or isn't.

Nazism really doesn't have room for a softer version. Islam can. You're full of ****.
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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
The burka and the swastika are in completely different categories. But I do consider the former to be a symbol of sexism.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
What the actual ****. Are we seriously going to compare an extreme form of prudeness to the swastika, which symbolizes racial purity and an ideology which actively encourages ethnic cleansing?

...

**** off.

Well the comparison between Nazis obsession with "Übermenschen" / "Untermenschen" and the Islamists obsession with "Believers" / "Unbelievers" has been made before and rightfully so.
Both ideologies deem their members superior and demand the extermination of non members as the "final" goal.
At a lecture I heard it summed up pretty well as they called the extreme form of "Islamism" a kind of fanatic religion with fascist features.

Also, it was argued that Islamism is actually quite a bit worse than Nazi fascism, as Nazi fascism at least had it's roots in reality and hence the whole "racial stuff" could later easily be disproven by science. No such luck with Islamism where their ideology is backed up by an unfathomable god and the promise of paradise after death.

So yeah, you could actually argue that Islamists are a lot like Nazis (holding themselves superior above all and sneering at anyone else), except worse.

But nope, as far as symbolism goes I don't think you can compare the Burka with the Swastika. ISIS flag possibly would fit the bill however: That's pretty much their "brand" now, isn't it?

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
This whole discussion is quite silly. ISIS laws and tabloid reporters aside, burkas specifically are an Asian garment, mostly seen around Afghanistan, more conservative areas of Pakistan and India. It was (and still is) enforced by Taliban. Outside of areas they control, it's seen as a traditional garment mostly worn by old ladies. Western media calling every face-concealing muslim garment a burka makes about as much sense as calling every Western style of formal clothing a suit.

TBH, I suspect niquabs, not burkas were what ISIS actually targeted with the ban. A traditional Saudi niquab+abaya getup (which is presumably what ISIS makes the women wear) looks similar to a Burqua from the distance, but is very distinct. For one, a niquab is a face veil (separate from abaya, which covers the rest of the body), while burka is a full garment. The women who "took off their burkas celebrating liberation from ISIS" either actually wore niquabs, or were so liberated that they decided to go all the way and strip to their undies. :) Niquab has been assigned various meanings, but it's not exclusively a symbol of sexism and has stood for many things in the past.

As for islamism and nazism, I'd say they're very similar. Basically, ISIS has fascism with radical islam, while nazis had fascism with white supremacism. Same idea, but with a different ideology. They have the same source, too. A lot of angry idiots, a couple of power-hungry dolts and no strong government capable of either sticking said dolts in prison or lining them up against the wall and shooting them. Say what you will against dictators, but if anyone tried to establish something like that during Saddam's times, the secret police would be all over him in no time.