[Ford Prefect]

He's going to agree with you. He's a Libertarian; arguing with a Libertarian is the only activity known to induce suicidal behavior faster than watching the Teen Choice Awards.

[iamzack]

I don't like to think about libertarians. They're social conservatives and also think roads, hospitals, and schools come out of thin air.

[NGTM-1R]

He's going to agree with you. He's a Libertarian; arguing with a Libertarian is the only activity known to induce suicidal behavior faster than watching the Teen Choice Awards.

Ah. Stop using logic. Gotcha.

[Turambar]

Personally one of my reservations about the whole thing is that while Scandinavia can rock Socialism like its hawt I tend to think our government is to retarded to implement it properly. 

I don't know if it's a matter of being retarded as much as it's a matter of there being way too much corporate bribe money in the way.

[Bobboau]

He's going to agree with you. He's a Libertarian

someone is paying attention

[mxlm]

Y'know why the protestors get called racist? Because people like Mark Williams go on CNN and call Obama a "Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug". Mind, this same man was insisting that no, racism has absolutely nothing to do with the mainstream of the teabaggers. It's just a lunatic fringe.

Also because a quarter of Republicans actively think Obama isn't a proper citizen, and therefore shouldn't be president. Oh, and it just so happens that even more than party lines, this follows a regional breakdown; whereas in the Northeast about 90% of those polled thought Obama was a citizen, in the South 20% actively think he wasn't born in the US and 30% are unsure.

Or Joe Wilson? Well, let's see, he interned for Strom Thurmond; strike one. He got all pissy when Thurmond's illegitimate daughter was like, 'yeah, he totally raped my mother'. Actually, she didn't say rape, but c'mon; let's quote Fox here "Her mother, Carrie Butler, 16 at the time, worked as a maid in the Thurmonds' home." In 1924. In the south. Anyone who claims there aren't any consent issues there...well, nevermind. I digress. Really Wilson just got pissy because

In 2003, Essie Mae Washington-Williams' revealed that she was the daughter of Wilson's former employer, the late Senator Strom Thurmond, and Thurmond's black maid. Wilson was among those who publicly doubted her claim that Thurmond had a child out of wedlock. Wilson said even if her story was true, she should not have revealed it because "it's a smear" on Thurmond's image and was a way to "diminish" Thurmond's legacy. After Thurmond's family acknowledged the truth of Washington-Williams' revelation, Wilson apologized but said that he still thought that she should not have revealed that Thurmond was her father.

And finally, he opposed the removal of the Confederate battle flag. The Confederacy, of course, was inherently racist; racialized slavery was codified in its very Constitution, nevermind CSA VP's assertions in a speech that

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

So yeah, not exactly pulling stuff out of thin air there.

[NGTM-1R]

And finally, he opposed the removal of the Confederate battle flag.

I always find such arguments about the battle flag to be painfully stupid. Yes, I know the context in which it was added to the state flags.

But I also know that the damn flag stands for more than just the inherent racism of the Confederacy. Great things were done with and for that flag, things worthy of rememberance. Not all of them were just or noble, but that is no reason to forget them.

It reminds me of Japan's desire to forget WWII. They also did great things, things worthy of being remembered. But they want to forget.

[StarSlayer]

I gotta agree with NGTM-1R, you stand up on Cemetery Ridge by the Copse of Trees and look across that field and realize what the men on both sides did during that war transcends the causes. 

[iamzack]

The confederate flag is one of THE symbols of hate in the south. Whenever I drive through SC or western NC, I am so very glad I'm not an obvious racial minority, though it is nice how all the crazies are clearly labeled. I don't care what it represents to the enlightened. In the south, it represents hatred.

[StarSlayer]

I thought it was the "Only good Yankee is one headin' North" bumper sticker. 

I suppose I'm guilty of looking at it through a historical lenses of the war itself, as opposed seeing it stuck on a pick-up in celebration the last medieval society on earth.

[Mongoose]

As much as the free-speech-supporting side of me disapproves, part of me really wishes that the federal government would have outlawed display of the flag as a symbol of treason immediately after the war's conclusion.  There's really no good reason whatsoever for someone in this day and age to be celebrating what the Confederacy stood for.

[Bobboau]

says the yankee.

[Mongoose]

Of course.  We won, they lost, and it's high time they dealt with it.

[iamzack]

I almost agree with Mongoose.

[BloodEagle]

Of course.  We won, they lost, and it's high time they dealt with it.

I'm going to ignore the opportunity to take the pot-shot at Black History Month that you opened up, and instead point out this and this. Oh, and don't forget about this.

Some things are best remembered.

[mxlm]

But I also know that the damn flag stands for more than just the inherent racism of the Confederacy. Great things were done with and for that flag, things worthy of rememberance. Not all of them were just or noble, but that is no reason to forget them.

The notion that random martial exploits can be considered great doesn't sit particularly well with me (although I suppose my discomfort depends on the definition of 'great' you're using). That aside, I'm not advocating forgetting anything about the Civil War. Oh no. I simply don't think the display of the flag is a necessary component of that remembrance. Especially since there's no way to elide the racist implications of the flag. Even more so since that remembrance often looks a lot like glorification, and forgetfulness of a different sort; witness the people who insist that, like, the Confederacy wasn't racist, dude.

[iamzack]

...there's no way to elide the racist implications of the flag. Even more so since that remembrance often looks a lot like glorification...

That. That's the main issue I have with it.

[Mongoose]

I'm going to ignore the opportunity to take the pot-shot at Black History Month that you opened up, and instead point out this and this. Oh, and don't forget about this.

Some things are best remembered.

I don't know where you're going with the Black History Month reference, and I fail to see what the first and third events you linked (please don't insult me with something along the lines of the middle again) have to do with the Confederate flag specifically.  As mxlm mentioned, no one's advocating forgetting about any aspect of the Civil War entirely, nor about any of the atrocities committed during it or the deep and lasting national wounds it caused.  That being said, I have very little sympathy for slave-holders and secessionists, and at least in my mind, flying that flag today is, at the very least, a massive display of bad taste.

[BlueFlames]

I'm going to ignore the opportunity to take the pot-shot at Black History Month that you opened up, and instead point out this and this. Oh, and don't forget about this.

This is why we study history in school.  It is not a reason to carry the standard of traitors or glorify their treason.  Preserve the flag as a historical artifact, and study the events surrounding it, but don't fly it and ignorantly proclaim, "The South shall rise again!" as though the Confederacy was some pure and noble movement.

[Liberator]

The confederate flag is one of THE symbols of hate in the south...In the south, it represents hatred.

It shows how little you understand some things.

The flag is representative of a fight for freedom from what was deemed an oppressive federal government by a group of states.  It was that oppressive government that resorted to force to keep the states in the union.  Until that time, the vast majority of governmental power had resided with the individual states.  Certainly slavery had a part, and I'm hardly saying the CSA were a bunch of saints, but the war was more about individual states rights. Hundreds of thousands of brave men(and some women) fought, bled and died pretty horrific deaths for a cause they felt was right and honorable.  For those that still fly that flag, the VAST majority are honoring the sacrifices on BOTH sides.  Using your logic, the graveyards at Normandy should be torn down and forgotten as well.