Author Topic: Britain votes for Brexit  (Read 17319 times)

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now.

You've only confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about by posting this. Do not reenter this conversation until you have learned enough to not make a fool of yourself.

TBH this topic is a sorcery to me and I have no idea how does this thing work. So maybe you will explain <simply, if possible> why did he "fool himself" instead of just bashing Mika :doubt:? Much appreciated.


BTW. I talked to my friend who studies IT in UK. There was quite a turmoil among foreign students, that university had to calm everybody down by sending emails explaining that everything remains unchanged. Mostly in terms of student loans, bills etc.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I'm going to try.

That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now. What goes down tends to get back up, and given the EU calling the shots, turmoil and see-sawing of the indexes are almost guaranteed. It's almost a capital investor's wet dream. Just like Greece was.

There is an argument to be made that the financial sector is bloated far in excess of the actual value it provides to society, but that's not one to be made here or now. The problem is that, if a shrinkage is necessary, it is better to shrink gradually than in a short sharp drop. And while we're committed to anticapitalist daydreams, capitalists snapping up businesses for bargain-bin prices should not fill us with joy.

Finally, the financial sector is one of the UK's primary economic drivers. If it crashes and departs for Frankfurt or Paris, the british recession will get much worse, and the Leave campaigns promises of greater economic freedom will evaporate.

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The reason France is mega pissed is partially historical and also related to the UK negotiations with the EU. Moderate stance is the one that gains in this case, Germany is looking for the financial sector growth in Frankfurt, and has nothing against France spoiling its chances. Additional thing is, the EU imports more stuff to the UK than the UK exports to the EU. This is already progressing to a game of capturing as much of those UK markets as possible before the others get there.

Mika is confusing things here. The UK running a trde deficit against the rest of the EU is a bad thing when the UK leaves. For any single EU country, the loss of the UK market is not exactly good, but it's not backbreaking either. For the UK, reliant as it is on free traffic of wares and raw materials, tariffs would put an enormous brake on the economy.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
So we just absolve the Remain-dominated government of not having a contingency plan for a vote that they knew would be close at best?
But clearly the people are the bad guys for not voting the way the Government wants, not the government for failing to represent its people.

So my previous question does hold some water then after. It's like if these guys voted for free ponies for everyone and then got mad when the government didn't do it. You'd think they'd want their guys doing the thing they wanted  themselves but apparently that sounds like work so we'll make the other guys do it. I suppose the next step is complaining they aren't doing it.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
From my FB feed from one of my friends and their friend, thought you might find it interesting:

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Let's accept as a reasonable premise that Brexit will likely inaugurate the disintegration of the EU (a fate perhaps inevitable given Greece etc., but now likely to come much sooner rather than later), which will in turn lead to greater destabilization of the global order (such as it is). But: is not contempt for democracy and its results when one is on the losing side exactly the kind of attitude the people who voted Leave were concerned about? It certainly does not inspire confidence in those are worried about the undemocratic nature of the EU to have their losing opponents say, "well, you're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count," which is the basic gist of many responses I've seen. Is there not something both ugly and ironic in the idea that only idiots would have supported Brexit? This is the same rhetoric used everywhere by elites and their parties against any populist opposition. It's funny because it betrays such a basic psychological deafness: what people want is recognition (especially in the Hegelian sense: I don't just mean some formal political process) and some basic respect. The refusal to bestow this, which in no way means acceding to their demands or agreeing with them politically, followed by contempt for their uneducated, non-urban situation, is exactly what fuels their resentment in the first place. We live in such a narrow-minded, half-witted political climate that probably the reader by now thinks I support Brexit, merely because I can respect people who oppose me and think offering them contempt is a good way to render any concilation forever impossible.
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"well, you're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count" - is a principle that has in one way or another always underlied "democracy," ever since that illusory idea expressed itself in Ancient Greece. People forget that the "democratic" Greeks of old did not allow the majority of their population to vote, reserving this right for the small percentage of the landowning males only. It is hard to imagine Brexit causing any significant dissolution of the EU. Too much corporate interest is involved in keeping that market as some kind of totality. The world seems to be returning back to imperial politics of the 19th century and for Europe to compete, it simply must be a unit. What is likely to happen in the next 5-7 years then, is that the Brussels' grip on the European elites will need to get even more ruthless. That "referendum" in England was a strange one. I don't think it would even happen if Cameron did not initiate it. Then why did he initiate it only to run around advocating against it? Was that meant to be a threat to Brussels that simply went a bit too far? If Brexit is part of the war of the elites, some new Brussels "agreement" will need to be reached. More cash will need to be spilled to buy out the local elites, and then some of the recalcitrant [greedier] sons of their nations, especially in countries like Hungry and Poland, will need to go to jail for "corruption." As far as the EU hoi polloi...in the next decade they will be drinking way more beer, watching way more football, or when football is not in season, they will be riveted by 24/7 coverage of some terrorist attack. Nothing unites a diverse group more than a common threat! The relationship between Brussels and the U.S. is what is super interesting to watch in the next few years. TTIP will both force EU to become an even tighter unit, but also turn it into a substructure of American corporate interest in ways that could not possibly make all the EU elites happy.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.

Let's ignore that's what the remain camp has been saying all along and that the leave camp dubbed it "Project fear", too!

So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I haven't seen too many people say "You're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count" Unless I'm missing a lot. Possible since I'm not deep in UK politics. What I have seen a lot of is "You're an idiot and you voted wrong" either because it was against their interests, or they voted as a joke, or didn't know what they were voting for etc etc.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is those people are kinda dumb. But hey each their own and all that jazz. But people who say they shouldn't count, or shouldn't be allowed to vote are equally dumb. You either work towards getting those people on the same page as you, or accept that half your country is dumb, like we have over here.

PS. I believe you if you say people are saying they don't count. Some yahoo on FB saying it doesn't trump the previous lines in my opinion.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit

So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?

"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit

So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?

"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.

I really need to stop prefacing my posts with "I'm not as well versed and these are outsider perspectives" so maybe I'll just post a US flag or whatever to proclaim my ignorance.

Anyways! Not knowing the future and all, if they leave, and everything is ****ed, isn't that a proper message? If one side is saying everything will be rainbows and ponies if we leave, I'm not sure how well "If we stay, we'll have more rainbows and ponies" would work. If the country turns down into a recession or worse, you can't turn to them and say "Yea you were right, but you didn't have to be so mean about it"

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Even if you think the financial sector is bloated or whatever and don't care about market indices, the pound crashing and interest rates falling to zero or possibly even negative are absolutely terrible in themselves.
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Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit

So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?

"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.
No it isn't, if you are telling the truth it's by definition not bull****.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Gonna say in wake of the Brexit, good on Britain.

The EU should get a clear message to clean up its act than remain a waggling stick for German/French grand-standing and remain focused on clearing up economic matters. If there's one thing I cracked up at is the overall fear and paranoia fired out on both sides of the Remain and Leave camp - everything from racism, feminazis, to World War 3 were brought up. If Britain chooses to leave and its done by referendum... welp, that's democracy in action.

There's nothing inherently wrong with choosing to stay or leave, as both ends of the spectrum are running around screaming.

Whether Britain's choice is a good one, only time will tell. They've cut themselves off from from an economic frontier, but in return, have chosen to take their own matters. It isn't stupid, but I think time will tell us how Britain will sink or swim.

Love or hate the UKIP Party or NIgel Farage, I think this is a sorta of an entertaining farce. At least the one net positive to this is you Brits getting rid of Cameron.
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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
There's nothing inherently wrong with choosing to stay or leave, as both ends of the spectrum are running around screaming.


What's this even supposed to mean? How can you have "ends of the spectrum" in a dichotomy?
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Offline Mika

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
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remind me mika you were the one who was glad that the terrorists hit brussels because it's a seat of EU power, yes?

I was happy they struck Bruxelles because then the EU bureaucrats got literally into the line of fire themselves. This is not something that usually happens to the politicians, and tends to hammer out a few kinks of the corkscrews and perhaps instate a little bit of common sense too. So they got to live with the results of their own immigration agenda for once. That's a win in my books. It didn't happen in some distant member state, it happened to them!

That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now.

You've only confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about by posting this. Do not reenter this conversation until you have learned enough to not make a fool of yourself.

The sheer brilliance of this is snow-blinding! With this razor sharp analysis I'd better find some Quickplast to those cuts!

I suppose you know how well the financial industry and real industry mix together? Or the effect of the UK housing prices towards creating new jobs?

To make a couple of things clear to start with:
a) Have you actually ever been in EU?
b) Have you ever been in the UK?
c) Have you ever worked in the EU?
d) Have you ever worked in the UK?
e) Have you ever worked for the EU?

The answer is yes to all five from my part. Bear in mind my family has ran banking business for a generation. Not my generation, but you tend to pick up some useful stuff... My advise would be to think before posting next time.

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There is an argument to be made that the financial sector is bloated far in excess of the actual value it provides to society, but that's not one to be made here or now. The problem is that, if a shrinkage is necessary, it is better to shrink gradually than in a short sharp drop. And while we're committed to anticapitalist daydreams, capitalists snapping up businesses for bargain-bin prices should not fill us with joy.

Finally, the financial sector is one of the UK's primary economic drivers. If it crashes and departs for Frankfurt or Paris, the british recession will get much worse, and the Leave campaigns promises of greater economic freedom will evaporate.

The E's answer warrants a reply as well. You exactly made the connection to what I was saying. However, I dispute that the financial sector bloat is not relevant. It is very highly so. The problem with gradual shrinking to begin with is that it simply will not happen. It just wont - every single time it has been suggested and attempted in history, the rich part of the society has never given in to what is essentially a reduction of their status (be it measured in money or anything else). To make it simple, how many Deutsche Bank CEOs have been fired due to their involvement in loaning to Greece before that crisis started? The answer would be "none, because they did not break the law", right?

Thus there are two real world options left to reboot the economy: re-distribute the wealth (tends to be violent), and as second, the stock market meltdowns. In this perspective, the meltdown should be seen as a good thing, if handled well, this will prevent the violent re-distribution. Yes, some period of time will be tight, but as the demand gradually picks up, this will stabilize the system to a sustainable level.

Those greedy capitalists capturing the cheap stocks prevents the stock market from melting more! It's part of the corrective movement. Yes, some elitists have likely dropped because of this, but that's class migration for you. But this was actually supposed to happen, right?

Well, then back to the question on how this is relevant to the UK. Well, the financial sector has resided in London City for quite some time. Given the nowadays way how it works, one of the areas the financial sector readily engages is the housing (another is insurances as that is easily expandable business without a big need for infrastructure), as this is a basic need everyone must have and selling houses does not actually require big infrastructure. Due to intertwining of loaning and housing industry, it is possible to drive up the housing costs, while the loan times can be extended. For a normal person buying house, he will see low interest rate and a relatively large loan. No biggie, he thinks as there's years to make up for this from his perspective. However, this is not the most ideal thing from the government's perspective that is detached from the financial industry. That money that the guy is now paying for the house could have been used to buy something else. Also, the guy is shafted if the interest rate picks up. The bank is not even if several loaners default, as then the taxpayers will be forced to monetize the bank (usually without getting shares because somehow that would just be plain old socialism, right?).

Now, people are paying nearly a million pounds for a house that's 300 years old. And not only is it 300 years old, it's been given a museum status (intended to increase the perceived prestige of the house), preventing any cheap repairs on it. So in the end, London City is the most expensive place in the Europe, but it's the most expensive place because the snobs have said so, and if you can't afford it, then you ain't a snob. Regardless of how rotten or non-functioning your 300 year old mansion is.

Given the 10 % drops in the indexes, surprisingly little has happened as of yet. But let's see till the beginning of next week.

I suppose I'll have to write of the import export balance some other day. It's 3 o'clock in the morning, and the sun rise seems to be taking place. If I don't go to bed now there wont be training tomorrow.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
is there a single UK citizen here who voted leave? are the demographics so ****ed that a majority of the UK is not represented?
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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Quote
remind me mika you were the one who was glad that the terrorists hit brussels because it's a seat of EU power, yes?

I was happy they struck Bruxelles because then the EU bureaucrats got literally into the line of fire themselves. This is not something that usually happens to the politicians, and tends to hammer out a few kinks of the corkscrews and perhaps instate a little bit of common sense too. So they got to live with the results of their own immigration agenda for once. That's a win in my books. It didn't happen in some distant member state, it happened to them!

... What the actual **** is wrong with you?

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Nothing. The EU bureaucrats seem to be fairly detached from the actual reality their policies create. This is one case where they got to feel the results of their decisions on their own skin, not see it in the numbers. Normally, someone getting bombed would not be anything to be happy about, but in this case, it might work out for the better. EU politicians are, for most part, either morons or deluded, in both cases a direct hit against them might make some of them think (it doesn't seem to have actually done much in that regard, though). Mika probably knows best (having worked for those dolts), though intelligent people in Poland, especially those old enough to remember Warsaw Pact, have been saying this for quite a while.

I wonder what it'll take to make them realize that maybe accepting all those refugees into EU wasn't such a good idea. I bet some will still defend this after they're kicked out in favor of a guy with a toothbrush mustache...

 

Offline The E

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Nothing. The EU bureaucrats seem to be fairly detached from the actual reality their policies create. This is one case where they got to feel the results of their decisions on their own skin, not see it in the numbers. Normally, someone getting bombed would not be anything to be happy about, but in this case, it might work out for the better.

Jesus Christ, what the **** is wrong with you?

First, look at how many actual EU institutions were attacked. Then make really sure you have looked closely, because the answer is NONE. These attacks did NOTHING, not a single thing, to impact the EU bureaucracy, and they're more an indictment against belgian law enforcement than an indictment against EU immigration policy.
Thirdly, you are openly advocating for terror attacks as an effective way to make political statements. Words fail me to describe how utterly stupid that stance is. You're saying that these people working for the EU, most of which are not in any shape or form evil or bad persons, deserve to be the victims of terror attacks because of the place they work at.

Get this through your head: Terror attacks never hit the "right" people. They always end up making everything worse.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Well, seeing as how Germany has handled the immigrant mess, the EU isn't in any better shape.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
The answer is yes to all five from my part.

Guess what? Those are utterly irrelevant to the fact that you don't know **** about how financial markets work and everything you said about them was so incredibly wrong that should have resulted in your exit from the conversation.

It's telling that you don't even argue a single qualification for why I was wrong about the actual part I quoted; all of your statements about how you know **** are about something totally different from your assertion that market correction was necessary or that buying was either somehow unexpected in this situation, desirable given your stated agendas, or otherwise somehow interesting.

And they still reveal you know nothing. Your appeal to some unverifiable qualifications you possess is undermined entirely by the fact you turn around and spew incredible ignorance about the things you're claiming you should have special understanding of. The reason every recent Islamic terrorist incident inside the EU has originated in Brussels somehow has everything to do with poor Belgian law enforcement and an amazingly anti-integration attitude only matched by the Scandinavian countries which were so eager to pat themselves on the back about how fair they were without actually having a minority population worth mentioning to test the hypothesis. (Unsurprisingly, when tested against the reality of having to actually cope with brown people now, they've failed miserably.)

It has nothing to do with the EU. The attacks themselves have come nowhere near anything to do with the EU either. Why should they? You seem to think the EU is facilitating them, it would behoove the attackers to do nothing to hurt it. Parts of your worldview are openly, obviously in conflict with other parts, but you want us to ignore this and take you seriously, rather than treat it as the poorly considered racist mess it actually is.
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
NGTM-1R, you are not the arbiter of who can and cannot participate in this thread.  Stop demanding that Mika "exit this conversation".  If you want to post in an echo chamber, go start a subreddit.