Author Topic: Terror in Munich  (Read 15099 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Yeah but when Battuta posted in these threads he was eloquent and insightful, whereas everything you post comes with a torrent of abusive sophistry.

I'm frustrated with maslo. I think it's understandable given that even you're acknowledging Batts had a point. I'm prompting him to show he's got some background, some grounding, that he's not just talking about things he hasn't even bothered to look up on wikipedia, again. Does that bother you so much you feel the need to post driveby complaints about it constantly, even when warned not to? Fine. But it's not like you wanted to have some kind of serious discussion in here, that's not something you do. All you've got to offer to a discussion is your own abusive one-liners.

Hell, at least I try to dress it up nice when I'm frustrated. At least there's actual content in there too. That's a comparison I'll cop to gladly. Both ways.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Deathsnake

  • 28
  • Again there
    • German Wing Commander Site
also. another one:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36880758

yea... it is just 50km from me away...thanks Merkel!
Star Citizen No. 250

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
I dunno man where were you when he was talking about doing exactly what ISIS wants us to do so that we can beat ISIS? When he could never engage with a point, only slide the goalposts?

What ISIS wants is two things:

1. for the relations between muslims in Europe and the majority to deteriorate, so that their recruiting pool inside enemy land is increased

2. for the unregulated mass immigration to continue so that so that their recruiting pool inside enemy land is increased

What the ISIS does not want is tight border control and Europeans treating muslims well.

I have explained this to Battuta, too, I didnt slide any goalposts at all.

I will respond to the rest of your posts later.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
PH, please have a warning for doing literally and exactly what I already told you not to do in this thread.

NGTM-1R, please have the same for doing the same.  If you can't be the better man, don't post.

Bobbau, please have a warning for inciting the warmest flames this thread has seen so far totally unprompted.  If your entry to the discussion is "you're full of ****", you are entering the discussion wrong.  That goes double for a Global Mod.

The next time I have to step in this thread is getting locked for a day.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Ansbach appears to just have had a "real" Islamistic bombing. Investigation ongoing. Islamistic background highly suspected due to how it went down (Nail bomb in crowd detonated by Syrian refugee.)

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/24/syrian-refugee-kills-woman-with-machete-in-southern-germany/

Grab another one from Germany. Interesting way of solving heart issues by a "refugee". Looks like nobody told him that we don't deal with woman's rejection with a knife here  :nono:.

 That gives us third Polish woman murdered abroad within a couple of weeks. 2 died in Nice.


 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
I know next to zero to what is going on exactly right now, but it feels as if the trends are accelerating in Europe towards something rather unbecoming. The ****show that Turkey is, the shenanigans surrounding the refugee crisis, ISIS *still* lingering on (and like a bad infection, threatening the life of an entire limb of a continent), all the crescendo around terrorist attacks.

If it's his thing, I welcome all NGTM's refutations based on facts, he's usually good at delivering "pwnages". Especially at "feels", which are often wrong against actual data points and so on. Still, I do have this glaring feeling that **** is slowly approaching the fan.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
I know next to zero to what is going on exactly right now, but it feels as if the trends are accelerating in Europe towards something rather unbecoming. The ****show that Turkey is, the shenanigans surrounding the refugee crisis, ISIS *still* lingering on (and like a bad infection, threatening the life of an entire limb of a continent), all the crescendo around terrorist attacks.

I wouldn't really disagree about the mood of Europe and what's in the air, but on the other hand, of all these things, the only one one that seems likely to result in a serious, permanent change is Turkey. And I don't think the Turkey thing has its genesis near the others either. Edrogan et. al. wouldn't stop seeking supreme power if they didn't have a civil war on their doorstep or if ISIS went away.

ISIS and their side effects have been going on for awhile; one of the reasons ISIS switched to attacking Europe was that they were losing ground in the Middle East. I doubt they'll ever have a moment where Satan comes to Jesus as did the IRA, so there will never be a clean end to the ISIS campaign. (If you can even call what happened to the IRA a clean end, considering.)They'll lose their territory and linger on as a more traditional terror group, tapping the apocalyptic mindset al-Qaeda wouldn't touch.

Then again it's not like al-Qaeda never advocated lone-wolf attacks. ISIS had a legitimacy, for want of a better term, they didn't, because they put a flag on the map and actually started accomplishing things against state actors for awhile. I guess the real question is, once that's taken from them, will it make things change in Europe? I'm hopeful but can't swear to anything.

I can't think of any especially appropriate parallels for Europe and the refugee problem at the moment. (It's not like a minority Muslim population in Europe is exactly new, France, Belgium, and Germany have had a noticeable minority for at least a decade.) The best fit, I think, would probably be...well. I'm not sure it's really a best fit, but see the last paragraph for why I feel like it does. The late '80s and early '90s, the US, gang violence, only focused outward rather than mainly in. Disenfranchised minority. Hated and feared. The cure for that was better policing on the one hand and the '90s economic boom on the other. (Mainly the economy, since it actually enabled the improved policing too.)

I suppose the former is possible; the French police seem to have some hangups about proper information-sharing, the Belgians have done a piss-poor job keeping an eye on their radicals, other areas of improvement doubtless exist. You can always get better. But the economic improvement...Europe's economy is technically on an upslope at the moment, but nothing like America in the early '90s.

As a personal aside, I admit a level of dark amusement as an American, watching Continental Europe, which has scolded us for so long about how much better they're integrated with their minorities, encounter a large group of brown people and completely lose their minds. A lot of the rhetoric you see get tossed around by people complaining about their new neighbors is very familiar in tone to that attacking African-Americans via the language of law and order from '70s onwards. But some of it is also straight Jim Crow-era nonsense, like banning hijabs. An attempt to force external conformity won't make them French in their hearts. Just piss them off.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Doubtful.

As I said, the current wave of islamic extremism easily matches or exceeds past waves of islamic extremism. Here is actual data I googled up:

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2016-03/terror-split2.png

To get back to the original discussion we had, it is pretty much a statistical fact that islamic extremism is increasing, or at best continuing as usual, both in Europe and around the world. This is enough to disprove your ignorant assertion that islamic extremism is going the same way as white suprematism went, meaning slowly became irrelevant. You just have no argument supported by any data left here, except for empty speculation about the future.

But it's not. You're arguing it's much worse because it's harder to defend against. So are gnats compared to mosquitoes. But mosquitoes can give you lifelong illnesses. Gnats can...get in your eye and make you uncomfortable for about a half-hour if you're really unlucky?

You need organization and resources to fight organization and resources. Humans are the dominant species on the planet because we can communicate, organize, and execute complex plans. That is our strength as a species and you need only look at a picture of New York, Berlin, London, or Beijing to understand just how incredibly powerful that ability is.

A "lone wolf" reduces themselves to a level below even than their namesake. At least a wolf is capable of simple communication and planning. These are people who won't even do that. They can kill us, in relatively small numbers.

Decentralized organizations such as a terrorist networks are still an organization. Neither centralized nor decentralized organizations can really threaten the superpower that is the West. So neither mosquitoes nor gnats can give you any serious illness, in this case..

But, a decentralized terrorist network (or worse - a terrorist inducing ideology/meme) is a bigger threat because it is much harder to eliminate, much harder to defend against and ultimately will kill more people over time than an actual enemy state you can target, simply because they can keep up the campaign of terror long-term. Any centralized organization such as Iran or IS (the state) is pretty much done after the first big attack, because it paints a big target on itself and cannot hide from the western military. This is not true of lone wolf attacks. An analogy with illegal file sharing comes to mind, where decentralization is also a desirable trait to make sharing much more robust and secure from law enforcement.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 12:39:53 pm by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
In unrelated news, this happened

I mean...

... I actually have no idea what to mean I'm just a bit depressed about it all okay?

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Turambar

  • Determined to inflict his entire social circle on us
  • 210
  • You can't spell Manslaughter without laughter
These asswipes want a huge holy war, but if the media wasn't complicit in spreading their terror, they'd kill us at a rate FAR below the rate at which we kill ourselves.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
In unrelated news, this happened

I mean...

... I actually have no idea what to mean I'm just a bit depressed about it all okay?

on the bright side, at least this mass killing can be said to have nothing to do with Islam uncontroversially.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
In unrelated news, this happened

I mean...

... I actually have no idea what to mean I'm just a bit depressed about it all okay?

on the bright side, at least this mass killing can be said to have nothing to do with Islam uncontroversially.

* -Joshua- cheers with an extreme lack of enthusiasm.

 
Maybe we should change the thread's name. So much happened recently that we can't just talk about Munich only.


Besides I am quite worried about World Youth Day in Kraków which started today and will last till 31'th of July. Security is tight as hell, we put armed officers, AT squads and even Military Police on the streets everywhere but still... That's several hundreds of thousands of people to protect. Yesterday the police revealed that they caught a citizen of Iraq who was in possession of explosive materials (small amounts, not enough to create a serious bomb but we still don't know if there was more or where it is. Police is looking for the rest). Guy rented several apartments in Kraków, very close to the pope's route. Police traced the explosives which were present in one of the apartments thanks to specially trained dog. Man was arrested for 2 months for now. If they find him guilty, then he will have up to 8 years to think about it in Polish prison.

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
As a personal aside, I admit a level of dark amusement as an American, watching Continental Europe, which has scolded us for so long about how much better they're integrated with their minorities, encounter a large group of brown people and completely lose their minds. A lot of the rhetoric you see get tossed around by people complaining about their new neighbors is very familiar in tone to that attacking African-Americans via the language of law and order from '70s onwards. But some of it is also straight Jim Crow-era nonsense, like banning hijabs. An attempt to force external conformity won't make them French in their hearts. Just piss them off.

Not to disagree with you regarding the sometimes knee jerk reaction towards migrants, but the (vast?) majority of the migrants are white. Muslim is not synonymous with brown.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 
As a personal aside, I admit a level of dark amusement as an American, watching Continental Europe, which has scolded us for so long about how much better they're integrated with their minorities, encounter a large group of brown people and completely lose their minds. A lot of the rhetoric you see get tossed around by people complaining about their new neighbors is very familiar in tone to that attacking African-Americans via the language of law and order from '70s onwards. But some of it is also straight Jim Crow-era nonsense, like banning hijabs. An attempt to force external conformity won't make them French in their hearts. Just piss them off.

Not to disagree with you regarding the sometimes knee jerk reaction towards migrants, but the (vast?) majority of the migrants are white. Muslim is not synonymous with brown.

That would depend entirely on who you talk to...

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Not to disagree with you regarding the sometimes knee jerk reaction towards migrants, but the (vast?) majority of the migrants are white. Muslim is not synonymous with brown.

Someone who's lived in Northern Europe their whole life is unlikely to be able to tell the difference between "Arabic" and "Mediterranean" as a complexion. I have a friend of Saudi descent who's forced to spend huge amounts of time on planes and overseas skating on that inability while traveling for her job, by telling people she's from Andalusia.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
As I said, the current wave of islamic extremism easily matches or exceeds past waves of islamic extremism. Here is actual data I googled up:

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2016-03/terror-split2.png

So, it's only for Europe, which is a problem since I specifically cited Europe and the US, and it has no breakdown into the strategies of terrorist operations I pointed out, where on one hand we have planned, organized attacks coordinated from outside the country, and on the other we have

If we were to actually address the argument I made, and attempt to make a useful breakdown of the attacks by how they were conducted per my original thesis, the spike in 2005-2006 belongs mostly to the first category, and the spike for the current era belongs mostly to the second and is noticeably smaller.

You've actually managed to disprove yourself. Would you care to try again?

To get back to the original discussion we had, it is pretty much a statistical fact that islamic extremism is increasing,

This is an obvious lie. It's not a misstatement, it's not ignorance, you are lying to my face. You know this statement is false. You literally linked the chart that disproves it. 2005-2006 was worse than the current situation.

Decentralized organizations such as a terrorist networks are still an organization.

There is no decentralized organization behind lone wolf attacks. Try again.

But, a decentralized terrorist network (or worse - a terrorist inducing ideology/meme) is a bigger threat because it is much harder to eliminate, much harder to defend against and ultimately will kill more people over time than an actual enemy state you can target, simply because they can keep up the campaign of terror long-term.

Linking to that chart was your worst decision ever.

You see that big mess up to 1992?

Do you know what's behind that?

The Soviet Union and Libya providing material and financial support and safehavens to terrorist groups throughout Europe.

Similarly, Iran continues to provide support to various terrorist groups throughout the Middle East.

These states were never "targeted" for these in a systemic, coherent, way, for their actions. Going to war over terrorist activities is frequently not worth it. The Soviet Union never even suffered real consequences, the Tomahawk strikes on Iran were the equivalent of a warning shot and in no way stopped their patronage. Libya, though bombed in the late '80s, did not cease their support until the mid-1990s, though without Russian help they had relatively little to offer. They did so because of an economic opening to Europe, not because of any military pressure.

You don't know anything about this.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
It can be easily argued that the spike between 2005 and 2006 has already been surpassed, given how that graph only includes data until march 2016. If you multiply that bar by 4 times (I'm obviously assuming the rest of the year will mirror the first half of it), it will be a bar that is pretty much in the same ballpark as 2015. Now that's something that is quite... ahhh... existing. And so, we may be able to say that something is definitely going on, it's not just a sentiment or a media coverage bubble.

I agree with NGTM's analysis, although the point he makes at the end is not entirely hopeful. The idea that market forces will somehow tame everything down is maybe historically accurate, but may not have any predictive power regarding countries with a completely different social culture than ours. Eastern europe was, at bottom, a christian / atheistic society / political infrastructure, with common values that easily map to our own. I do believe we just take for granted all these values and institutions that form what we holistically call "Democracy", that stem from a tradition of a mish mash of christian individualism, enlightenment, stoic personal responsibility, etc., all of which are completely alien to muslim societies.

George Bush and Tony Blair once thought that all that the middle east required was a shock and awe kind of democratic infusion, and all these values would automatically flourish, for they were already inherently human values. Except they are not. They were embedded for so long in our culture that we, again, just take them for granted.

It might well be that, while we all get along with everyone, middle east included, market-wise, we may be in a long haul of total bifurcation culturally-wise with most of these societies. Here's where Maslo has a point: society is collapsing like a black hole through "the power of the internet" and other media forces. This means that while once we could just ignore these people and these people could just ignore us, this seems to be increasingly difficult. And given the trends in technology, social media and general connectivity, it seems that it will become almost impossible in a decade or two. Given how irreconcilable certain aspects of our cultures are, we are really in for a ride here.

If it's something that will go the "good route" or the really nasty one, we can only guess at. This is why things like Turkey are important checkpoints, they are big enough to  set the trend going.