Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: T-Man on December 17, 2014, 09:22:36 am
-
I feel someone has to say it or it'll quietly ruin HLP so here we go; Has anyone else started to get a little bit concerned at how more and more projects on here (and modding elsewhere too actually) are just ignoring copyright (and thus stealing, usually music/sounds/images) to make their mods? Ripped music seems to be crammed into mods like it's nobody business nowadays, and I remember last year seeing a picture in one mod I was impressed with (especially as I have a lot of artist friends so like to look at art), only to find it most of it was actually ripped from a piece of game art without permission. Given at least one project I know is using pirated stuff was recently referred to I quote as 'an example to all modders', the fact it's actually breaking laws is really getting to me especially as it's a project (and team) I fanatically loved and respected until the full reality of what their doing (and how callously their doing it) all dawned on me a few days ago. Perhaps some of the things I see as piracy are in fact legal (I'm not a legal expert and it's not unheard of; paramount is a good example) but I doubt it. No joke, I fear that if our 'example to all modders' was seen by the wrong person it could very well be the end of HLP; that simple, and I worry that we seem to be blindly stumbling into it.
I imagine the big counter-argument would be 'no one is getting hurt by it' which indeed may be true physically, but am I the only person that gets a bit down at how two-faced that makes people sound? People like to rage and hurl abuse at politicians or bankers fiddling expenses or making secret deals, and then they do stuff like torrenting music or movies the moment it suits them and the moment no one is looking. Those same people scream and sue about their rights being violated by a government (still remember how everyone was then some guy put up the B5 project on eBay), and then violate the rights of someone's work within the same hour. I will be frank; are some people really as hypocritical as that sounds? If we're a community that 'brings modders together' why do we need to steal stuff? How can any of us support that and accept it on here so openly? Are we as creative minds too lazy to get in touch with people or look around and actually try to negotiate what we want, or even make stuff? I would rather have an 8-bit MIDI song someone made (heck even silence) than some high-quality uber-song they stole. I sometimes wonder if actually trying legal channels for stuff like music might actually prove better than people assume in the long run, and whether it's the constant piracy that's actually making things so bad for modders and indie. I also think many who do pirating only do so end of the day because of their own selfishness and greed (or plain laziness) rather than any true reason.
I appreciate some may be irked by me bringing up this topic (and I am truly sorry, to the admins especially); I had long debated saying nothing fearing the fallout (and I had told some people such recently), but this (and stuff like it in general life) has been tearing me up and fear letting it carry on unopposed essentially makes me as bad as those I'm confronting; it's at the point where it has to be said, that simple. If the condoning of open piracy simply because 'we can get away with it' is the reality of HLP, and given how high up some individuals who from what I have read seem to think that way are in stuff like the SCP and among Admins, I fear it has (I won't give names, they know who they are and I'll let them speak for themselves) then I don't want (and wouldn't want any new modders) to be involved here anymore as it'll only destroy the reputation of modding in the world's eyes and ruin the reps of every man and woman on here; in my eyes that's not opinion, just a statement of fact.
Comments welcome, and apologies again; I take no pleasure in saying controversial stuff like this (in fact I feel sick doing so) but sometimes doing what you feel is right is not the same as doing what is best for you. If I have to get done for it, fair enough and so be it.
-
Suppose what one needs to do here is describe what modding is considered under copyright laws, as well as who technically holds the rights to the product
As well as which loopholes apply where
And giving credit where credit is due
-
I'm especially worried about the music issue, too.
I also think the lack of care for legal issues mostly comes down to the lack of legal status for mods.
To me Volition releasing FS2 source code and FRED, and still having this in Interplay's EULA :
You may not decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble the Software,
except as permitted by law. Interplay Entertainment Corp. and its
licensors retain all right, title and interest in the Software including
all intellectual property rights embodied therein and derivatives thereof.
shows that legally, what we understand as modding is FUBAR because the companies we are dealing with have no idea what they are doing either.
Encouraging modding by releasing essential pieces of software, and even the first modding tutorials, whithout offering legal protection (some "derivative work" sub-licensing statements that Interplay will never take action against a mod that doesn't infringe on a set of fixed rules) to modders is total nonsense.
They made sure modding couldn't be distinguished from piracy... Well, here's the result.
I'm not saying piracy is not a problem, and I would gladly see some contents replaced to be on the safe side, but to me that's an obvious consequence of Interplay's lack of care about modding.
Here's how Valve handles things, in a much much better way :
Valve appreciates the community of Subscribers that creates fan art, fan fiction, and audio-visual works that reference Valve games ("Fan Art"). You may incorporate content from Valve games into your Fan Art. Except as otherwise set forth in this Section or in any Subscription Terms, you may use, reproduce, publish, perform, display and distribute Fan Art that incorporates content from Valve games however you wish, but solely on a non-commercial basis.
If you incorporate any third-party content in any Fan Art, you must be sure to obtain all necessary rights from the owner of that content.
-
Fortunately, we're not a big target because we make no money by modding. However, I believe you're right, especially with respect to music. I was disappointed when I played ASW for the first time and heard ripped music. And I found out after playing BP that a lot of its music was also ripped (although, I should have realized while I was playing). This was brought up in the BP forums, and I remember someone admitting they were trying to find legal replacements.
In the worst case too, we can use the music that comes with the game. As I've modded (it's debateable if anything I do will ever get released), I've attempted to use royalty-free music which is limiting. You're often forced to compromise on the feeling of a mission or scene because the song just goes in a direction that you don't want it to go, but it is still the closest fit. Menu music is especially hard to find.
It's unfortunate, too, because music can be the overriding factor that defines a mod. It pushes the original FS1 and FS2 to far beyond the sum of their parts and is the most beautiful and intriguing part of Vassago's Dirge, which I am right now replaying.
-
Well, afaik most classical music is public property by now. I mean, copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+60 years(I think), and back in the day it was only 20 or 30ish. So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
BP on the other hand does, but they're still too small to really be a target, and they do have *some* original music. WoD and DE are almost entirely reliant on Gundam, Star Operators, and other anime soundtracks, but they're also too small to really be a target. If anything, it makes you want to actually buy the OST.
-
I don't care. I see no reason to assume that hosting works which might infringe on someone's copyrights causes a tangible risk of legal repercussions.
Credit should be given whenever possible and I don't want to play a game and hear music that I recognize as belonging somewhere else, but other than that, nothing wrong with a bit of infringement.
-
Nope, I even think Copyright itself should be absolutely reformed, and as it is it's a ghastly torture machine against creativity and "remix" culture. A disease that the United States are forcing the entire world by gunpoint to accept and conform to. Let me state it again in other words: Copyright as it is is killing culture, and this is, I fervently believe, a crime against humanity itself, all done so that Mickey Mouse can be kept at Disney winning more bazillions per year for their shareholders.
Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished. Clearly that would create all sorts of other problems as well. I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.
-
Nope, I even think Copyright itself should be absolutely reformed, and as it is it's a ghastly torture machine against creativity and "remix" culture. A disease that the United States are forcing the entire world by gunpoint to accept and conform to. Let me state it again in other words: Copyright as it is is killing culture, and this is, I fervently believe, a crime against humanity itself, all done so that Mickey Mouse can be kept at Disney winning more bazillions per year for their shareholders.
Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished. Clearly that would create all sorts of other problems as well. I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.
Cool, create a reform group that wants to abolish Copyright. You believe it is killing culture and that we have to stop it; a notion I agree with.
If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.
And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.
-
I genuinely don't give a ****. If the copyright holders have an issue with it, they can send a C&D. If they don't know about it, then clearly the copyright infringement isn't making an impact significant enough for them to notice, and we don't need to care.
And I'm with Luis. I think a moral objection on behalf of US copyright law is absolutely laughable.
BTW, I take the exact same approach with my models. If someone feels like using them, they can go right ahead. I don't care what they're doing, so long as they're not passing them off as their own work.
I'll add as an aside that Darius has been replacing a lot of BP's music with either original tracks or actually licensed ones.
And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.
Pick bones for blood? You mean kinda like the way BP started out? One would think BP or VD are the definitive proof that "exclusive" custom-made assets are in no way needed to make an excellent mod. Really wondering how many artists you think BP is hoarding.
-
Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical. Let's imagine a world in which modding isn't de jure illegal and come up with a code of conduct for this stuff that will be followed in exchange for having the priveledge of a place on these forums.
If the copyright holders have an issue with it, they can send us a C&D. If they don't know about it, then clearly our copyright infringement isn't making an impact significant enough for them to notice, and we don't need to care.
Such a code of conduct would also serve to help us cover our ass if a copyright holder decides to get zealous. I would hate to see a good project become the casualty of a possibly avoidable situation if the legal environment changes.
And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.
Are you saying you think BP has overrecruited?
-
Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished.
Cool, create a reform group that wants to abolish Copyright.
You could actually read the things you're replying to, An4ximandros; it makes discussion ever so much more productive.
I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.
This all basically matches my perspective. :yes:
-
Well, afaik most classical music is public property by now. I mean, copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+60 years(I think), and back in the day it was only 20 or 30ish. So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
BP on the other hand does, but they're still too small to really be a target, and they do have *some* original music. WoD and DE are almost entirely reliant on Gundam, Star Operators, and other anime soundtracks, but they're also too small to really be a target. If anything, it makes you want to actually buy the OST.
Correction: The originally published sheet music is public domain by now. Sheet music which has been typeset since then, as well as various recordings, may still be under copyright as separate (derivative) works. A piece of classical music written in 1706 but recorded and published by Sony in 2006 has the same copyright status as Pearl Jam.
-
And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production.
What do you mean by this?
-
I probably have a lot more thoughts on this than I'm posting right now, but typing a small essay seems a lot like effort.
If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.
Plenty of exceptions. Different countries, different laws etc etc
And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.
Woah there buddy, ease up on the ignorance.
The topic poses a question "Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?"
Who are 'we' in this regard? And how does this 'we' intent on doing better?
-
Yeah, someone's going to do it anyway, so we might as well name names now.
-
Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical.
No we don't lol.
Are you saying you think BP has overrecruited?
He's saying he doesn't really understand how things are. :p
If there truely is a desire by those who feel so morally strong about this subject, to have HLP made mods thread a more legal ground. Go petition Sandwich on making that hlp paypal money available for mods to buy music rights with, or 'royality free' licensed music. Or something.
What do people think about donating a largish sum from HLP's PayPal fund? We've got ~$1,300 in there.
-
Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical.
No we don't lol.
Let's not make TMan's case for him.
-
I don't honestly care about TMan's case though. I'm pretty much of the same mind as Aesaar, Luis, Ralwood etc
Modders do it because of passion and the joy of creating something. We fill some gaps with 'illegal' content to make the experience whole. Nobody here is making a single cent off of our efforts. It's a big stretch of 'fair use' sure, but whatever.
-
Then let's see how little we have to stretch it to be able to do our work. Just because copyright is bull**** doesn't mean we shouldn't hold ourselves to some standard.
-
Well, as far as responsibility is concerned, it lay primarily with the Mod-owner, not the hosting site, however, in a closely knit site like this one, there is some crossover.
The problem is getting hold of musicians who have the free time to do music, though there is a large quantity of 'free to use' music around (if credit is given), getting music written specifically for your Mod is time consuming.
I have several projects I keep intending to work on, but my system has been nothing but trouble since my Soundcard died on me and I replaced it, I think I might need to uninstall and reinstall Sonar and its plugins, which is a big, complex job which involves pulling out all my manuals for the registration codes :(
My own advice is to use stock free music as, at the least, a place-filler, there's a list of some sites here - http://socialtimes.com/royalty-free-music_b37470
The big problem is that music companies, once they see an opportunity, are a lot more litigious than computer game companies, you can find a Mod that has been ignored for its source material can be sunk by its music, especially if they start looking into the realms of Mods. Consider how many game videos on youTube have been affected by claims not for the Video, but for the audio...
-
If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.
Plenty of exceptions. Different countries, different laws etc etc
I don't know of any relevant country where it's legal to redistribute music the way Freespace mods do. Do you?
-
North Korea. :) I don't know what their actual copyright law is (they might not have one at all), but it's likely not concerned with protecting "evil Western art". Russia has a somewhat milder version of this, too (it has a history of not honoring Western copyright claims). Different countries have different laws regarding copyright, and this is important. There are things that are in public domain in Europe but not in the US, for instance.
In general, I think that as long as proper attribution is observed, there's nothing wrong with using copyrighted material for noncommercial, artistic purposes. Copyright should be reformed, and that reform should prioritize artists as a whole and their audiences over media corporations. Indeed, I'd be flattered if someone used something I made to make something else, even without explicit permission. We're not getting money out of it, so you could say we're only doing it because we love those things so much. Everyone here is doing this for the art, and we're not getting anything out of it but an artistic experience.
As for morality, let's not forget "legal" and "moral" are not only not the same things, but can in fact be the opposite at times (yes, even in "civilized" countries). We definitely should be doing what is right, but while it's preferable for it to be legal, I think it doesn't necessarily have to be (it is a huge responsibility, though. If you wish to judge those things yourself, you're on your own and it's up to you to stand for your decisions). Remember that in case of most of the music and art we reuse, the copyright is there to protect whatever corporation is selling the stuff, not the actual artist. We are not stealing things - mods generally state (IIRC) where their music, assets and such came from. Sometimes it does get muddy - an asset in a popular mod could be re-used and that mod would likely be credited, because it's easier than looking in the credits. :) While not strictly immoral, I think it's not a decent thing to do, the original author should be given respect.
If anything, we may need better enforcement of attribution rules. It shouldn't be taken to ridiculous levels, but someone ensuring that we know where every asset comes from likely wouldn't hurt the community. Only the biggest mods like BP can afford to make original music (in which case it's preferable, and not only because of copyright issues).
-
As far as the legal side goes, the stakes are pretty low (C&D letter) unless a mod hits it huge. I think around here only BP has anything to worry about if it goes standalone and explodes (which it deserves to because it's great).
As for the "making the world a better place" angle, I'd like to see more modders start to identify and act like creative artists rather than consumers and adopt some of that spirit, most relevantly when it comes to not ****ing your brothers and sisters over for the sake of the audience or your own project of the moment.
It really comes down to simply obtaining consent if you want to use someone else's work. Everyone should feel welcome to put their work out there and vie for people's attention, but jacking other people's work to make your work look better would be messed up no matter what IP laws were like.
-
copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+how ever long Walt Disney has been dead for + 10 years +/- 10 years
FTFY
(it's 70 years BTW, or 120 years if made by a corporation)
-
OK, so this is obviously an emotive topic for some people. I gee that. But there's no reason to be hyperbolic about it.
No joke, I fear that if our 'example to all modders' was seen by the wrong person it could very well be the end of HLP; that simple, and I worry that we seem to be blindly stumbling into it.
That is definitely not the case, luckily. The structure that HLP has makes it very clear that the mods are hosted projects, so I'd imagine that they would be considered legally separate sub-entities. Also, HLP doesn't directly host any of the objectionable material - mods get uploaded to places like Freespacemods, Sectorgame (FS Files now I guess), Mediafire etc. The worst that a musical rights holder could do would be a C+D to individual projects (which could reorganize their musical choices and re-release pretty quickly) or to hosting sites telling them to remove specific files. In the US, I imagine it would take the form of a DMCA takedown notice, which happens all the time and doesn't bring down larger entities. HLP itself would be legally insulated.
And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.
I would definitely like to see proof of this before it was used as a basis for anything. Yes, there have been threads here and there about people recognizing specific tracks in BP and the like, but presenting it as some sort of broad based problem that's scaring off large numbers of people is a big call. I'd expect some big evidence to back it up.
Also, this isn't really the thread to talk about the distribution of individuals to specific projects, but ultimately it is entirely the decision of individual modders which projects they work on. I can't ever remember a situation where someone was pressured into working on a specific project, large or small, and it would be utterly pointless to do so, since the motivation that working on a truly fun and interesting project can only come from actually working on a project that a modder finds fun and interesting. If smaller projects want more help, they need to be prepared to make their projects more fun and interesting for modders. There's literally no other option (other than paying people I suppose).
If there truely is a desire by those who feel so morally strong about this subject, to have HLP made mods thread a more legal ground. Go petition Sandwich on making that hlp paypal money available for mods to buy music rights with, or 'royality free' licensed music. Or something.
I don't think this will happen, luckily. Those funds weren't provided for that purpose. However, the idea stands - if this is something people feel has that much traction in the community, go start a kickstarter or indiegogo campaign for your favourite mod to buy its music. I doubt it'll go anywhere, but that's just me.
In terms of the actual topic at hand, well, to be entirely honest, it's not one I feel particularly strongly about. When I have hunted down music on my own, I have looked exclusively for royalty free stuff from soundcloud, newgrounds etc., but when Lepanto added music for one of his Frontlines missions, I admit that I didn't check where it came from. If someone decides that they want it taken down, we can replace it in short order and be back up again.
Ultimately, this is a project specific issue, not a HLP wide issue. If one particular project bothers you, talk to them specifically (though I think that the three projects mainly mentioned in this thread (WoD, BP and DE) have all made their positions clear).
-
I don't think this will happen, luckily. Those funds weren't provided for that purpose. However, the idea stands - if this is something people feel has that much traction in the community, go start a kickstarter or indiegogo campaign for your favourite mod to buy its music. I doubt it'll go anywhere, but that's just me.
Sandwich seemed pretty happy about donating those funds to fund the kickstarter, and he totally would have, if there was enough community support for it. Since its probably his account and he feels like there is money to throw around, I don't see why those moneydollars couldn't become a modders resource if there was community support for it. Clearly all of it is not needed to run just the servers.
I'm not actually really pushing for this, I'm just throwing around a random idea as opposed to just whining about how someone's copyright might be violated without actually trying to provide any valid alternative to these violations. Can ''we'' do better? Sure, but for most modders it will be a investment with absolutely no returns. And unless the people that supposedly actually care about this are willing to provide any actual help mods to avoid copyright infringment, this whole thread is moot.
-
TBH, if we were to pay for dealing with the issue of copyrighted music, I'd rather use that money to hire a composer to make a bespoke soundtrack. This is something that really makes mods a lot better, and also avoids the awkward "hey, I know that one!" effect. It can be jarring to hear something in a mod that you've heard somewhere else entirely, in a completely different context to boot. Given the expense of the more popular tracks, this might even end up much cheaper.
-
...I don't see why those moneydollars couldn't become a modders resource if there was community support for it. Clearly all of it is not needed to run just the servers.
I'm not actually really pushing for this, I'm just throwing around a random idea as opposed to just whining about how someone's copyright might be violated without actually trying to provide any valid alternative to these violations.
That's fair enough, I'm kind of cagey about real money after the blowback that the modding contest got on that front. That, and the fact that as Dragon's post demonstrates, getting broad agreement about how to use such a community resource outside of it's originally intended purpose would be nigh on impossible.
Personality, if it were to be opened up for modders (and I don't really think it should be), I'd prefer to see it parcelled out as a series of grants people could compete for (I.e. Propose what you want to do with the money and let the community vote to select the most useful/worthy) rather than just saying "This is for getting rid of copyright music." But I do get that you're not really trying to do that, so no harm.
-
I will make mod soundtrack you most give moneys
-
So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
Not true. Axem did do one thing most other mods didn't: credit the performers and encourage people to buy their CD.
Honestly, we have no excuse for this. It's been my primary complaint with the modding community here as well, and claiming fair use is a gray area that we shouldn't have to cross.
It's a shame that finding equally good royalty free music is not as easy, but I think that by starting the search with royalty free music first is a better step at avoiding legal grays than starting with copy right and looking for a substitute.
Edit: Wow, I'm disturbed by the apathy in this thread. This isn't a legal issue. This is an ethical one, and only a few people seem to get that.
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?
I don't care what goes on outside of HLP. But the fact that we're condoning it here is just sad and hypocritical. Like, torrenting FreeSpace is not okay, but downloading gigabytes of copyright movies is?
-
As long as the mods dont earn any money and give credit, I see no ethical issue. Not unless the copyright holder actively complains about it.
-
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?
Unless the proposal to use HLP moneys to buy licences for those soundtracks gets any traction, that "ethical concern" is pretty much moot from the very beggining, since all those poor starving artists whose rights are being trampled and abused and oh my god the humanity, would never see any money at all anyway, so what the hell are you railing about? You are speaking as if these mods are money making enterprises and not actually free work from modders to the community themselves. The level of empathy you are showing for the creators of those soundtracks, I think you are absolutely forgetting about the actual modders here. They don't get a penny as well. Are they starving? Should they work harder so that these soundtrack licences don't get trampled? Who would win there? No one.
Except of course if people are willing to buy licences for the mods they love. In which case, by all means.
-
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?
JFC, nobody's starving because BP uses some music from films and Two Steps From Hell in their mod. There is no actual revenue at stake here whatsoever.
-
I suppose my concern is that, whilst music companies are not all that interested in Game Mods right now, that's because it's not exceptionally widespread and therefore not in the legal departments interests to pursue it wholesale, but the more people that actually breach the letter of the copyright, the more likely it is that interest will be taken.
-
Aye, I admit my concern is not really the legal mattes (Hoover is I suppose right that no one is going to starve here; even Jillian Aversa (http://youtu.be/ukPCCR0gzDQ) will probably be okay (you may remember the song form a trailer);, though she isn't exactly a big company by the sounds of it and I'd have hoped someone at least asked her). My concern is more the ethical aspects; what does it say to outsiders about HLPers if word ever got out? I wouldn't want anyone to not be able to get work or respect in places simply because they happened to be connected to us.
There's also a more personal level to that worry (and again, sorry to bring this up but feel need to); some of the people involved in stuff like this and apparently taking the non-caring stance are not just 'community members', they're global moderators and heads of major projects (IIRC one even did an interview representing the entire community!). They are people we've put in positions of trust that we are called upon as community members to respect. The paranoid part of me asks; if those people can are this uncaring about one aspect of the law, what else might they not care about? If ever a time came when I really needed their help or needed to trust them with something, could I? Is it right for me to have to respect their positions knowing how little they seem to value the position (and rights) of others? I wouldn't feel right having them represent us either, as to do and then for word to get out of what they've might be seen as all of us saying 'We condone breaking this law', which again might damage the rep of anyone part of HLP; some don't mind it clearly, but what about those of us who do? Is it right to force it (and the potential fallout of it) upon us? I give my word this is not a personal attack on anyone; just a concern about image and, well, honour (a word that to many nowadays is I sadly fear a throwaway silliness but is one that means a lot to me).
The idea of the fund for it is interesting, but I likely wouldn't ask sandwich for access to the current fund as that's for running HLP and community projects; I'd probably look to set up a new separate paypal if it came to that. I'm also not entirely up to speed yet on what sort of costs we're be talking about (obviously if it's too much than it's a futile concept). I do have the means to look into it in at least one case, but have held back (and was also asked to hold back and agreed to) since to do so will likely draw attention to HLP.
-
I suppose my concern is that, whilst music companies are not all that interested in Game Mods right now, that's because it's not exceptionally widespread and therefore not in the legal departments interests to pursue it wholesale, but the more people that actually breach the letter of the copyright, the more likely it is that interest will be taken.
Yes, that is the legal side of things. The ethical side of things is that what modders are doing is of no possible harm to anyone.
-
I think more harm is done by being too obsessed with the perfectionality of these Copyright "issues" regarding free mods that were done from the heart of really generous people, than actually with the "issues" themselves, which aren't hurting anyone whatsoever that I can name at all. And if a particular case gets brought to light where indeed someone feels they have been hurt by the inclusion of his / her sound on a mod (hey it's possible I guess...), then I think we should be empathetic to their plight and provide a response to that that is appropriate to the creator.
Until then, I label these concerns either in the "Concern Trolling" category or in the "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Perfectionalist Concerns" one.
-
...or in the "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Perfectionalist Concerns" one...
Me in a nutshell essentially; not afraid to call a spade a spade :o. I am, for the record, like that because I see people who are not (in RL, on the net, and on the news) every day, and what they do or are willing to do without even thinking, and it horrifies and depresses me (as silly as that might sound to some). I am an odd thinking person I know, but given what I see of 'normal', 'thinking' people nowadays, I'm happy to stay that way.
Pardon the brief Off-topic there.
-
(Upfront disclaimer: I've got a busy day ahead, so I won't be able to check back up, update, or respond to this post for a while if anybody notices. I am not a lawyer or a businessman and am basing the following suggestion on a single anecdotal datapoint. Take the following in the spirit it is offered.)
How difficult would it be to actually go legit and cut a licensing deal with copyright holders.... (sees earlier in the thread). I'm not talking about HLP cutting a deal, I'm talking about individual modders. For example, the FiXT label has a program for licensing their music in YouTube videos (http://fixtmusic.tv/), and musing on this program is what first got me thinking. I'd bet that program could be extended to cover explicitly non-commercial game modding as well. More importantly, I'd wager that contacting somebody working with that program could point out additional sources of easily-licensed music, and could provide guidance on procuring non-commercial licenses from bigger labels.
My first instinct with an initiative like this would be to avoid making this an "HLP initiative". I cannot properly articulate actual reasons for that other than a vague instinct that advises against drawing the attention of commercial forces here.
I do in fact plan to contact FiXT when I'm less busy, and I will try to craft a form letter that could be used to inquire at larger music publishers about using their tracks non-commercially.
Update as I type this and review: FiXT does have a program for using their tracks in video games.
You want solutions? This could be the seed of one.
-
Small, extremely small tip: I actually recommend for anyone modding the usage of Nine Inch Nails' album Ghosts, which is comprised of 36 all instrumental songs that are just awesome for soundtrack purposes, and the whole album is licenced under Creative Commons so yeah.
-
Small, extremely small tip: I actually recommend for anyone modding the usage of Nine Inch Nails' album Ghosts, which is comprised of 36 all instrumental songs that are just awesome for soundtrack purposes, and the whole album is licenced under Creative Commons so yeah.
And we could also build a quick list of known sources for Creative Commons music and post it on a stickied thread or a page on the wiki. That would be a very easy action that could help this problem. We could reduce our time searching for music and play closer to the letter of the law.
-
I will add this nice news I got today: Sam Hullick, one of the Mass Effect composers, is gonna start publishing his new songs for free in the internet if you just support him via his patreon account (http://www.patreon.com/samhulick?rf=435319&ty=2). And I totally agree with Cyborg, that would be extremely useful for any modder and would at least be an useful quick response to the concerns raised.
-
Honestly, we have no excuse for this. It's been my primary complaint with the modding community here as well, and claiming fair use is a gray area that we shouldn't have to cross.
It's a shame that finding equally good royalty free music is not as easy, but I think that by starting the search with royalty free music first is a better step at avoiding legal grays than starting with copy right and looking for a substitute.
Edit: Wow, I'm disturbed by the apathy in this thread. This isn't a legal issue. This is an ethical one, and only a few people seem to get that.
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?
I don't know about anybody else, but I've actually bought music just because it was used in a mod. Hell, I bought an entire album because somebody suggested one song from it as a potential song for a mod! So I can actually point towards an actual increase in revenue as the result of modding on HLP. Can you point towards a guaranteed loss of revenue?
I don't care what goes on outside of HLP. But the fact that we're condoning it here is just sad and hypocritical. Like, torrenting FreeSpace is not okay, but downloading gigabytes of copyright movies is?
Firstly, I seem to recall that, back when nobody was selling FreeSpace, people were pretty okay with people torrenting it. Secondly, you're making an awfully big jump from "let's use this copyrighted song as background music in our non-commercial mod because we don't have any legal alternatives" to "pirate all of the movies!"
-
Yeah, low/no budget projects using ripped professional music directly impacts musicians, disproportionately those of the starving variety. Getting their work used in unpaid/low paying projects is how composers start out. If amateur filmmakers bypassed amateur composers in the same way people here are trying to justify modders doing, there would be no new blood in film music outside of personal acquaintances of established artists and everyone would be worse off for it.
This is already pretty much the case for really high budget movies, but at least in film there is a pipeline for bringing up new artists. An amateur director using music they didn't have the rights to in a finished product would be like squeezing that pipeline at the source and would be rightly frowned upon. Commercial stuff in mods should be treated like temp tracks: use them as a tool to aid in your creative process, but replace them with legit material before release.
Musicians struggle with the general public's attitudes towards music all the time. Please don't be the guy who feels entitled to do whatever they want with other people's work because "it wants to be free" or you hate Disney or something. The fact that the lifeguard and the jocks are in cahoots isn't a legitimate excuse to drop a deuce in the pool.
-
Yeah, low/no budget projects using ripped professional music directly impacts musicians, disproportionately those of the starving variety. Getting their work used in unpaid/low paying projects is how composers start out. If amateur filmmakers bypassed amateur composers in the same way people here are trying to justify modders doing, there would be no new blood in film music outside of personal acquaintances of established artists and everyone would be worse off for it.
In an interesting counterpoint, if you switch "musician" or "composer" with "modder" and vice versa, this paragraph reads exactly the same!
-
Not sure I understand...I would agree that amateur musicians inserting their music into professional video games they don't have permission to modify and distributing the resulting product illegally would be similarly messed up, but I wasn't aware that was happening here.
I've definitely seen people who write trailer music just replace the soundtrack of hollywood trailers for their demo reels, and I agree that that work represents missed opportunities for aspiring filmmakers and contributes to the top-heaviness of the industry.
In either case, the issue is still obtaining consent from the people whose work you're using. If you have permission, by all means, go nuts.
-
What I was getting at is that both of the groups you mentioned (low/no-budget musicians and modders) are in very similar situations, both with respect to professional agencies they may (or may not) be hoping to attract and in respect to the expected audience and the expected return on the particular piece of work.
Unless your point is to say that modders should only use low/no-budget composers' music as a way to provide a leg up to said composers (which, while laudable in spirit perhaps is neither the responsibility nor to expectation of a mod), then I honestly fail to see what you're advocating here.
-
Swash, the fact that the mods on HLP do not and *cannot* make any money off their work kind of obviates your line of reasoning here. Upstart composers would have to be willing to work for free if they wanted to make their names off the success of our mods; and, well, if there were all these amateur composers out there we would be using them.
-
I hear what you're saying, but just because the mods can't legally make money doesn't mean that they lack the means to commission work. The fact that many mods are using the work of amateur composers who have contributed for free is a pretty good indicator that you don't have to go far to find musicians to work with, and that's going beyond all the stuff that's already out there.
I personally do free musical work for the mods I am a part of and would happily work for peanuts for others, and I'm pretty sure if you wave even a couple hundred dollars around in a public space, you will literally have your door beaten down by composers willing to do the same. Music composition is a field that is loaded with talent and starved for paying jobs. It's the king of buyer's markets.
@Scotty I'm not saying modders are responsible for using anyone's work, but they are certainly responsible for not releasing work that they haven't obtained consent to release.
It's definitely harder to do things the right way, and I am very sympathetic regarding the amount of work it takes to get the music you want, but I also live and work in a world where people gladly pay $30,000 for their wedding and then expect the band to play "for exposure", so I'm trying to offer a little perspective here.
-
Oh, we just gotta wave a couple hundred dollars around then. Well, if it's that easy, I don't see why not all modders do that then. Problem solved, everyone go home.
-
If you are not willing to put blood, sweat, tears and your lifetime into a game, you should not even try to make one. That's what several folks I know that work in the industry have told me. Battuta spent his hard earned money to finish the VOs for BP2. Maybe you should give that some though.
Here's an idea: Remember the FRED/Modeling competitions that gave out prices? How about making a competition or two for making music and audio.
-
Well, that's about the response I expected. Carry on. Let me know if you actually accomplish anything here.
(http://i.imgur.com/e2jhDsI.gif)
-
I remember that competition being received rather poorly. That one would probably be even less warmly received, simply because I can't even name five people who would be able to enter with any real quality.
HLP does not have a great deal of composers. Off the top of my head I know of Belisarius and... yeah that's about it. And BP's music needs occupy damn near all of his creative output. I don't think it's practical either financially or in terms of being remotely possible in HLP's current state to expect a mod to have all its own or licensed music. At the very, very least, it'd be a harsh, imposing expectation for a budding new mod. Expecting all of these various modders to pay out of pocket to create something for which they are legally (in more real terms than the potential lack of sales legally) unable to make anything in return is the worst kind of entitlement. It's even worse than expecting a band to play "for exposure". It's asking a band to pay for the privilege of exposure.
-
If you are not willing to put blood, sweat, tears and your lifetime into a game, you should not even try to make one. That's what several folks I know that work in the industry have told me. Battuta spent his hard earned money to finish the VOs for BP2. Maybe you should give that some though.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/35ibx8l.jpg)
-
Yeah, you would have to go to a different forum to commission a piece of music if you want your offer to be seen by a variety of potential collaborators, but that's not exactly a high hurdle to clear.
To clarify, the expectation isn't that modders should have to pay out of pocket to have their own music, it's that they should find legit music at whatever level fits their means, whether that's doing something new with the music that comes with the game (which is excellent), finding a freely available piece (which there are a lot of), asking for someone to waive their royalties to use their music (never hurts to try), commissioning something (moderately expensive, but dirt cheap compared to other forms of skilled labor), or paying the normal licensing cost (no idea what that would cost for the pieces people have used). Redistributing someone else's work without their consent is the only one out of many options that is problematic.
-
On second thought, getting music through slave labor would also be a problematic option, but you get my point.
-
HLP does not have a great deal of composers. Off the top of my head I know of Belisarius and... yeah that's about it.
There was another guy on BP, pretty good. Also, there's Blackhole (Eric McClure), though I haven't seen him around lately (I love his music, it's free to use and some mods already took advantage of it).
-
Long story short, music takes blood sweat and tears to make.
The worst part of copyrights? The original creators don't hold the rights or sign away aspects of performance, enforcement and sale. So even if the music creators endorse the use of their products in fan-made mods and such, they actually don't have legal rights to it.
One such example of kooky copyright is Japan, where big content distributors have been working to ever vigilantly to trump Publisher rights over creator rights or build frameworks where content creators have no option but to surrender their distribution to the big players. Despite the problems, the Doujin scene remains vibrant for both fan luv and fap material.
-
Royalty free music, you say? jamendo.com (http://jamendo.com)
I found the site years ago, and discovered huge piles of really really great music. I don't know quite how the licensing works for mods, but as far as I can tell, as long as it's for non-commercial purposes, you're free to use and distribute with attribution. The vast majority of music seems to use the creative commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
On topic: I can see both sides of the issue. On the one hand, the blasé attitude toward ripping of copyrighted assets does disturb me. On the other hand, I do understand that it is technically not hurting anybody, and in some cases can actually lead to sales.
Ultimately, I think that it's just a matter of attitude. Just show a bit more remorse and hand-wringing when you say, "I wish we could make all original content, but couldn't spare the time and resources to make what already exists and happens to work perfectly for us. Here's a list of exactly what we used, go support the creators of whatever."
-
As someone who, at least until recently, did music for some of the Mods in here, I will say I understand the problem with having on-board musicians, as we can be a somewhat unreliable and sporadic lot. However, on the other side of the coin, I know that if I saw another BSG mod for another game that had pinched the music from Diaspora, I'd be a bit narked. Not because of the use, it's actually quite flattering, but more because of the assumption that we wouldn't mind or notice, rather than simply writing to the team and asking.
-
Ultimately, I think that it's just a matter of attitude. Just show a bit more remorse and hand-wringing...
It sounds kind of cynical (in the "it's all an act" way), but this is really powerful and practical advice. Asking people to relate to your struggle to produce a work with limited resources goes a lot further than self righteously trying to convince them that you're not actually doing anything bad. Of course, this only works if you actually are struggling financially. If you can afford to do it the right way and chose not to then you blew it and no public display will save your case. A lot of people seem to struggle with this point.
Kudos for posting jamendo.com too, I totally forgot about that site.
-
So is that sticky thread with all the already mentioned sources of goodies and a lot of potentially great other ones going to be made or was the concern just of the trolling kind? HMM? :)
-
So is that sticky thread with all the already mentioned sources of goodies and a lot of potentially great other ones going to be made or was the concern just of the trolling kind? HMM? :)
Heh, apologies for delay (am a UKer so sleep cycle is slightly different to a lot of the board) :lol:. I do think yourself and Cyborg are on the right track; if we find any good places for royalty free and the like pop the links up on a thread somewhere (as some have been on here already); that'll be a good way to go (and would've in hindsight likely been a much better solution in the first place to be honest than my 'mope at the world' I've been doing here :o).
If the moderators of the Modding section don't mind us doing so, perhaps we could add a list of music and sound sites to the Tutorials and resources list (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70249.0)??
-
That would actually be really useful. After encountering "I know that song!" syndrome a few times (and a few more retroactively. I've heard music from Universe At War in FS before actually I played the game) I found myself wishing for alternatives that were not used anywhere else. At least, that was back when I seriously thought I could finish a mod of my own, but I'm sure there are people who thought about the same thing. :)
-
I've refrained from saying anything regarding the actual copyright debate because I couldn't word it in a non-inflammatory way but I'll just say that if there's any requirement or even a strong compulsion to go "legit" popping up, I'd rather just never mod FS2 again than deal with the hassle.
I get it, some of you actually want to use your work as a stepping stone to get into game development, make a portfolio or something. Some of you have this story you want to tell everyone, and this is your way to express it. For achieving those ends, going "legit" is probably a worth cause. But not everyone mods for that purpose. I mod FS2 because it's fun (usually). I don't make a campaign to tell a story to anyone else - I do it to put a story I have in my head down so I can go experience it in a tangible form not just my imagination, or sometimes its thrown in as an afterthought. I don't care if nobody downloads it - I don't have any ego to feed, or an end goal to all of this - sure, it makes me happy if other people are having fun with what I "made", but that's just icing on the cake. I'm perfectly happy with never releasing anything ever again if there's going to be some requirement on what music I put in, because I put the music in there for myself to listen to while I test/play the stuff on my own. People were interested so I shared. I can always stop sharing. Saves me the massive hassle of testing and making sure things work on other people's systems and all.
If it's really so wrong to share ripped music and that's what the community agrees on, then fine. It won't be. Along with everything else.
I could say a lot more, but that'd just risk me coming off as a lazy asshat, so I won't say it.
-
I suppose the best or only way to really get around copyright completely is to find people willing to make entire original soundtracks for mods. Which makes things even harder for the smaller modders out there, I would imagine. As I can only speak for myself, I can listen to music and quickly envision events that I would love to (re)produce with that music to guide the action and story but if said music would cause issues in any way that is very discouraging for me. I've been very picky and procrastinatory to begin with, so..
It's not a simple issue but with modding, non-commercial usage, the legal basis shouldn't be a big concern, to me - More important (to me) is how people respond to modders using said music, since it has a huge impact on the overall experience.