[T-Man]

I feel someone has to say it or it'll quietly ruin HLP so here we go; Has anyone else started to get a little bit concerned at how more and more projects on here (and modding elsewhere too actually) are just ignoring copyright (and thus stealing, usually music/sounds/images) to make their mods? Ripped music seems to be crammed into mods like it's nobody business nowadays, and I remember last year seeing a picture in one mod I was impressed with (especially as I have a lot of artist friends so like to look at art), only to find it most of it was actually ripped from a piece of game art without permission. Given at least one project I know is using pirated stuff was recently referred to I quote as 'an example to all modders', the fact it's actually breaking laws is really getting to me especially as it's a project (and team) I fanatically loved and respected until the full reality of what their doing (and how callously their doing it) all dawned on me a few days ago. Perhaps some of the things I see as piracy are in fact legal (I'm not a legal expert and it's not unheard of; paramount is a good example) but I doubt it. No joke, I fear that if our 'example to all modders' was seen by the wrong person it could very well be the end of HLP; that simple, and I worry that we seem to be blindly stumbling into it.

I imagine the big counter-argument would be 'no one is getting hurt by it' which indeed may be true physically, but am I the only person that gets a bit down at how two-faced that makes people sound? People like to rage and hurl abuse at politicians or bankers fiddling expenses or making secret deals, and then they do stuff like torrenting music or movies the moment it suits them and the moment no one is looking. Those same people scream and sue about their rights being violated by a government (still remember how everyone was then some guy put up the B5 project on eBay), and then violate the rights of someone's work within the same hour. I will be frank; are some people really as hypocritical as that sounds? If we're a community that 'brings modders together' why do we need to steal stuff? How can any of us support that and accept it on here so openly? Are we as creative minds too lazy to get in touch with people or look around and actually try to negotiate what we want, or even make stuff? I would rather have an 8-bit MIDI song someone made (heck even silence) than some high-quality uber-song they stole. I sometimes wonder if actually trying legal channels for stuff like music might actually prove better than people assume in the long run, and whether it's the constant piracy that's actually making things so bad for modders and indie. I also think many who do pirating only do so end of the day because of their own selfishness and greed (or plain laziness) rather than any true reason.

I appreciate some may be irked by me bringing up this topic (and I am truly sorry, to the admins especially); I had long debated saying nothing fearing the fallout (and I had told some people such recently), but this (and stuff like it in general life) has been tearing me up and fear letting it carry on unopposed essentially makes me as bad as those I'm confronting; it's at the point where it has to be said, that simple. If the condoning of open piracy simply because 'we can get away with it' is the reality of HLP, and given how high up some individuals who from what I have read seem to think that way are in stuff like the SCP and among Admins, I fear it has (I won't give names, they know who they are and I'll let them speak for themselves) then I don't want (and wouldn't want any new modders) to be involved here anymore as it'll only destroy the reputation of modding in the world's eyes and ruin the reps of every man and woman on here; in my eyes that's not opinion, just a statement of fact.

Comments welcome, and apologies again; I take no pleasure in saying controversial stuff like this (in fact I feel sick doing so) but sometimes doing what you feel is right is not the same as doing what is best for you. If I have to get done for it, fair enough and so be it.

[deathfun]

Suppose what one needs to do here is describe what modding is considered under copyright laws, as well as who technically holds the rights to the product

As well as which loopholes apply where

And giving credit where credit is due

[Hellzed]

I'm especially worried about the music issue, too.

I also think the lack of care for legal issues mostly comes down to the lack of legal status for mods.

To me Volition releasing FS2 source code and FRED, and still having this in Interplay's EULA :

You may not decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble the Software,
except as permitted by law. Interplay Entertainment Corp. and its
licensors retain all right, title and interest in the Software including
all intellectual property rights embodied therein and derivatives thereof.

shows that legally, what we understand as modding is FUBAR because the companies we are dealing with have no idea what they are doing either.
Encouraging modding by releasing essential pieces of software, and even the first modding tutorials, whithout offering legal protection (some "derivative work" sub-licensing statements that Interplay will never take action against a mod that doesn't infringe on a set of fixed rules) to modders is total nonsense.
They made sure modding couldn't be distinguished from piracy... Well, here's the result.

I'm not saying piracy is not a problem, and I would gladly see some contents replaced to be on the safe side, but to me that's an obvious consequence of Interplay's lack of care about modding.


Here's how Valve handles things, in a much much better way :

Valve appreciates the community of Subscribers that creates fan art, fan fiction, and audio-visual works that reference Valve games ("Fan Art"). You may incorporate content from Valve games into your Fan Art. Except as otherwise set forth in this Section or in any Subscription Terms, you may use, reproduce, publish, perform, display and distribute Fan Art that incorporates content from Valve games however you wish, but solely on a non-commercial basis.

If you incorporate any third-party content in any Fan Art, you must be sure to obtain all necessary rights from the owner of that content.

[Cyborg17]

Fortunately, we're not a big target because we make no money by modding.  However, I believe you're right, especially with respect to music.   I was disappointed when I played ASW for the first time and heard ripped music.  And I found out after playing BP that a lot of its music was also ripped (although, I should have realized while I was playing).  This was brought up in the BP forums, and I remember someone admitting they were trying to find legal replacements. 

In the worst case too, we can use the music that comes with the game.  As I've modded (it's debateable if anything I do will ever get released),  I've attempted to use royalty-free music which is limiting.  You're often forced to compromise on the feeling of a mission or scene because the song just goes in a direction that you don't want it to go, but it is still the closest fit.  Menu music is especially hard to find.

It's unfortunate, too, because music can be the overriding factor that defines a mod.  It pushes the original FS1 and FS2 to far beyond the sum of their parts and is the most beautiful and intriguing part of Vassago's Dirge, which I am right now replaying.

[FrikgFeek]

Well, afaik most classical music is public property by now. I mean, copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+60 years(I think), and back in the day it was only 20 or 30ish. So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
BP on the other hand does, but they're still too small to really be a target, and they do have *some* original music. WoD and DE are almost entirely reliant on Gundam, Star Operators, and other anime soundtracks, but they're also too small to really be a target. If anything, it makes you want to actually buy the OST.

[zookeeper]

I don't care. I see no reason to assume that hosting works which might infringe on someone's copyrights causes a tangible risk of legal repercussions.

Credit should be given whenever possible and I don't want to play a game and hear music that I recognize as belonging somewhere else, but other than that, nothing wrong with a bit of infringement.

[Luis Dias]

Nope, I even think Copyright itself should be absolutely reformed, and as it is it's a ghastly torture machine against creativity and "remix" culture. A disease that the United States are forcing the entire world by gunpoint to accept and conform to. Let me state it again in other words: Copyright as it is is killing culture, and this is, I fervently believe, a crime against humanity itself, all done so that Mickey Mouse can be kept at Disney winning more bazillions per year for their shareholders.

Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished. Clearly that would create all sorts of other problems as well. I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.

[An4ximandros]

Nope, I even think Copyright itself should be absolutely reformed, and as it is it's a ghastly torture machine against creativity and "remix" culture. A disease that the United States are forcing the entire world by gunpoint to accept and conform to. Let me state it again in other words: Copyright as it is is killing culture, and this is, I fervently believe, a crime against humanity itself, all done so that Mickey Mouse can be kept at Disney winning more bazillions per year for their shareholders.

Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished. Clearly that would create all sorts of other problems as well. I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.

Cool, create a reform group that wants to abolish Copyright. You believe it is killing culture and that we have to stop it; a notion I agree with.
If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.

And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.

[Aesaar]

I genuinely don't give a ****.  If the copyright holders have an issue with it, they can send a C&D.  If they don't know about it, then clearly the copyright infringement isn't making an impact significant enough for them to notice, and we don't need to care.

And I'm with Luis.  I think a moral objection on behalf of US copyright law is absolutely laughable.

BTW, I take the exact same approach with my models.  If someone feels like using them, they can go right ahead.  I don't care what they're doing, so long as they're not passing them off as their own work.

I'll add as an aside that Darius has been replacing a lot of BP's music with either original tracks or actually licensed ones. 

And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.

Pick bones for blood?  You mean kinda like the way BP started out?  One would think BP or VD are the definitive proof that "exclusive" custom-made assets are in no way needed to make an excellent mod.  Really wondering how many artists you think BP is hoarding.

[Mr. Vega]

Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical. Let's imagine a world in which modding isn't de jure illegal and come up with a code of conduct for this stuff that will be followed in exchange for having the priveledge of a place on these forums.

If the copyright holders have an issue with it, they can send us a C&D.  If they don't know about it, then clearly our copyright infringement isn't making an impact significant enough for them to notice, and we don't need to care.

Such a code of conduct would also serve to help us cover our ass if a copyright holder decides to get zealous. I would hate to see a good project become the casualty of a possibly avoidable situation if the legal environment changes.

And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.

Are you saying you think BP has overrecruited?

[AdmiralRalwood]

Let me be clear so that no one misreads me: I am not saying that Copyright should be abolished.

Cool, create a reform group that wants to abolish Copyright.

You could actually read the things you're replying to, An4ximandros; it makes discussion ever so much more productive.

I'm saying that it should be reformed. And until it is, no, I am not bothered by mods using mainstream bits of music and soundtracks. If I were to do a mod myself, I wouldn't follow that example because I don't appreciate the murkiness of that ip situation, but I have no sufficient respect for Copyright as it is right now to care whether if Blue Planet or Wings of Dawn are really, really, really on the legal side of the issue or not.

This all basically matches my perspective.

[Kopachris]

Well, afaik most classical music is public property by now. I mean, copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+60 years(I think), and back in the day it was only 20 or 30ish. So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
BP on the other hand does, but they're still too small to really be a target, and they do have *some* original music. WoD and DE are almost entirely reliant on Gundam, Star Operators, and other anime soundtracks, but they're also too small to really be a target. If anything, it makes you want to actually buy the OST.

Correction: The originally published sheet music is public domain by now.  Sheet music which has been typeset since then, as well as various recordings, may still be under copyright as separate (derivative) works.  A piece of classical music written in 1706 but recorded and published by Sony in 2006 has the same copyright status as Pearl Jam.

[Lorric]

And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production.

What do you mean by this?

[Spoon]

I probably have a lot more thoughts on this than I'm posting right now, but typing a small essay seems a lot like effort.

If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.

Plenty of exceptions. Different countries, different laws etc etc

And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.

Woah there buddy, ease up on the ignorance.


The topic poses a question "Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?"
Who are 'we' in this regard? And how does this 'we' intent on doing better?

[Mr. Vega]

Yeah, someone's going to do it anyway, so we might as well name names now.

[Spoon]

Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical.

No we don't lol.

Are you saying you think BP has overrecruited?

He's saying he doesn't really understand how things are. 


If there truely is a desire by those who feel so morally strong about this subject, to have HLP made mods thread a more legal ground. Go petition Sandwich on making that hlp paypal money available for mods to buy music rights with, or 'royality free' licensed music. Or something.

What do people think about donating a largish sum from HLP's PayPal fund? We've got ~$1,300 in there.

[Mr. Vega]

Regardless of our feelings on copyright law, we have a responsibility to be ethical.

No we don't lol.

Let's not make TMan's case for him.

[Spoon]

I don't honestly care about TMan's case though. I'm pretty much of the same mind as Aesaar, Luis, Ralwood etc

Modders do it because of passion and the joy of creating something. We fill some gaps with 'illegal' content to make the experience whole. Nobody here is making a single cent off of our efforts. It's a big stretch of 'fair use' sure, but whatever.

[Mr. Vega]

Then let's see how little we have to stretch it to be able to do our work. Just because copyright is bull**** doesn't mean we shouldn't hold ourselves to some standard.

[Flipside]

Well, as far as responsibility is concerned, it lay primarily with the Mod-owner, not the hosting site, however, in a closely knit site like this one, there is some crossover.

The problem is getting hold of musicians who have the free time to do music, though there is a large quantity of 'free to use' music around (if credit is given), getting music written specifically for your Mod is time consuming.

I have several projects I keep intending to work on, but my system has been nothing but trouble since my Soundcard died on me and I replaced it, I think I might need to uninstall and reinstall Sonar and its plugins, which is a big, complex job which involves pulling out all my manuals for the registration codes

My own advice is to use stock free music as, at the least, a place-filler, there's a list of some sites here - http://socialtimes.com/royalty-free-music_b37470

The big problem is that music companies, once they see an opportunity, are a lot more litigious than computer game companies, you can find a Mod that has been ignored for its source material can be sunk by its music, especially if they start looking into the realms of Mods. Consider how many game videos on youTube have been affected by claims not for the Video, but for the audio...