Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: gonz on August 03, 2012, 08:25:11 am
-
Just wondering if any coders have ordered a development kit for the Oculus Rift from Kickstarter
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game
If so what do you think the chances of getting FreeSpace to work well with it are? Obviously it won't look great because of the low resolution though but it would be so immersive, the ability to look around would be so great. You could have a real cockpit. I am giddy with the thought of it.
Glen
-
You can already have a real cockpit through TrackIR/FreeTrack. It does not need some not-yet-released gadget.
That being said, the only (haha) things needed to do in order to make this work with FSO are to adapt our TrackIR code to handle whatever positioning data is sent by this system, and (and this is the problematic part), change the 3D renderer to handle stereoscopic rendering.
-
Blargh. Looks like Yet Another Expensive Gadget for people who think they're too good for the good ol' keyboard, mouse and screen(s)...
Also, if you want a modeled cockpit, that's already possible, and if you want to look around, it's already possible with TrackIR.
EDIT: ninja'd
-
Sorry, I should not have said "real cockpits", I know they have been available for a while.
What I meant was be able to look around the cockpit naturally using your head and just see the view, not have to look back to a monitor which is not positioned where your head is currently pointing.
i.e. being able to turn your head 90 degrees to the left and actually be seeing what is in that direction
-
Sorry, I should not have said "real cockpits", I know they have been available for a while.
What I meant was be able to look around the cockpit naturally using your head and just see the view, not have to look back to a monitor which is not positioned where your head is currently pointing.
i.e. being able to turn your head 90 degrees to the left and actually be seeing what is in that direction
that... might be incredibly disorienting, considering FSO's gameplay in general...
-
Sorry, I should not have said "real cockpits", I know they have been available for a while.
What I meant was be able to look around the cockpit naturally using your head and just see the view, not have to look back to a monitor which is not positioned where your head is currently pointing.
i.e. being able to turn your head 90 degrees to the left and actually be seeing what is in that direction
that... might be incredibly disorienting, considering FSO's gameplay in general...
in theory at least as or most probably less disorientating as Track IR when set up properly because you look forwards relative to your body and that is forwards, look left and that is left, there is no turn your head slightly and wait for your screen to scroll to where you want it.
-
in theory at least as or most probably less disorientating as Track IR when set up properly because you look forwards relative to your body and that is forwards, look left and that is left, there is no turn your head slightly and wait for your screen to scroll to where you want it.
The delay between your head turning and the in-game camera turning with Freetrack should be imperceptible, if it's set up properly and your computer has the resources for it.
-
What we really need is a full simulator for a chairs. I want my chair to mimic banking turning and real G forces. And then, when I die in-game.. I want my office to explode so I can really feel like I'm in the game!
-
in theory at least as or most probably less disorientating as Track IR when set up properly because you look forwards relative to your body and that is forwards, look left and that is left, there is no turn your head slightly and wait for your screen to scroll to where you want it.
The delay between your head turning and the in-game camera turning with Freetrack should be imperceptible, if it's set up properly and your computer has the resources for it.
sorry not quite what I meant, what I am trying to get at is that you cant look 90 degrees left with Track IR because then you are not able to look at the monitor so I presume there is either a movement scaler or you have to look left and wait for the program to turn the view to 90 degrees, both of which bring in an element of disorientation because they are not how reality works, which a system like this would not have.
What we really need is a full simulator for a chairs. I want my chair to mimic banking turning and real G forces. And then, when I die in-game.. I want my office to explode so I can really feel like I'm in the game!
not a big fan of explodie, its kind of a bit permanent :snipe:
-
What we really need is a full simulator for a chairs. I want my chair to mimic banking turning and real G forces. And then, when I die in-game.. I want my office to explode so I can really feel like I'm in the game!
This!
And when the life support subsystem bites it, I want my room turned into a vacuum. How else am I going to immerse myself in the game?
-
And how would you see your keyboard to command your wing whilst wearing that?? Good luck trying to C-3-9 with that on! Hmmm?
-
When you've memorized the layout of a keyboard it's near-impossible to mess that up.
-
I don't look at my keyboard while playing :pimp:
^True KB+Mouse veteran.
This Oculus thingy could make Multi interesting...... And WiH could cause me to throw up.
I'm not even mentioning Transcend with this system. No way......
NEVER :shaking:
-
**** the head tracking aspects, bring on the stereoscopy.
-
While it's most likely very expensive (for now), I think it'd be great if FS could someday work with Oculus Rift and other, similar devices that will soon inevitably appear. I think VR is the future of gaming, considering immersion it allows.
-
We should prepare FSO to work with holographic projection rooms.
-
While it's most likely very expensive (for now), I think it'd be great if FS could someday work with Oculus Rift and other, similar devices that will soon inevitably appear. I think VR is the future of gaming, considering immersion it allows.
It's funny...people said the same thing around 1994 or so. :p
-
While it's most likely very expensive (for now), I think it'd be great if FS could someday work with Oculus Rift and other, similar devices that will soon inevitably appear. I think VR is the future of gaming, considering immersion it allows.
It's funny...people said the same thing around 1994 or so. :p
and have been saying it. and repeating it and repeating and repeating...
-
at the time they didnt have the hardware. the screens were extremely low res or didnt offer good color and didnt offer serious fov or refresh. they caused nausea because of latency and because graphics quality lacked lighting cues neccisary for stereo vision. technology kinda moved on since then, but very little of it make it back to the headsets. awhile back i saw a video with john carmack talking about vr systems (including this one) at e3. and how little they have evolved over the years. so he bought headsets and started hacking them, calling up companies who made them and offering technical advise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYa8kirsUfg
-
Even tough the resolution is kinda low, for only 300$ Rift is a steal. Its a HMD with 90 degrees of FOV, I am sure the immersion is going to be much better than anything else out there.
Someone should really code stereoscopic rendering into FS, not just for the HMD..
-
While it's most likely very expensive (for now), I think it'd be great if FS could someday work with Oculus Rift and other, similar devices that will soon inevitably appear. I think VR is the future of gaming, considering immersion it allows.
It's funny...people said the same thing around 1994 or so. :p
and have been saying it. and repeating it and repeating and repeating...
And it seems they've all been right. :) The technology required for this is getting cheaper and cheaper, computers are getting more powerful and games more immersive. If Oculus Rift is going to cost about 300$, it means it's clearly possible to make an affordable VR headset with today's technology. Somebody just has to do it and become successful enough to be copied. I believe we'll see a day in which VR will stop being the future of gaming and start being a standard everybody would support.
-
this one is different in that it seems to use a single screen for both eyes. this has the up side of being able to do a simultaneous eye rendering. meaning no left right flicker. refresh is still an issue, carmack was talking about most of the alloted 20 miliseconds to keep the effect convincing is used up just scanning out the frame (that doesnt account for the render time or the time neccisary to poll input devices like head trackers, and the time wasted by the os). ive actually had issues like that in my electronics projects where data sits in a buffer for several milliseconds, waiting to be used causing serious lag in the various control systems. he said something about 120 hz beeing better for something like this, which would half the scanout time from 16 to 8 ms. its fun to watch john break down the amount of time everything takes to happen.
rendering looks like it renders both eyes to the same frame buffer. looks like you could **** with the projection matrix to render to one side, and then set it up again and render the other side, maybe using some stencil buffer majic there (im going to play with my game engine and see if its possible). im not sure if this is something that will fly with differed lighting and such, but idk. carmack mentions that other than doing the split screen thing he had to use a pixel shader to handle the warp correction neccisary to really sell the effect. that video was a good watch, you learn **** about vr that you never knew.
-
Watch the 2012 QuakeCon Keynote. John Carmack goes into great Detail about the current state of VR in there. Also talks long about the Rift Device and its pros and cons. Basically what we have here right now is the START. This is the first time we have the technology to make VR work reasonably well. BUT its not there yet completely. The Rift is the first step into the right direction and something that John recommends to people that like to experiment on the bleeding edge of technology. Hell yeah playing FS in VR sounds awesome but i'd wait 2 or 3 Years personally.
-
yea wait till they at least have a consumer product. right now they have dev kits and are planning to produce a diy headset kit. when they get past that stage (which will likely take the 2 or 3 years you mention) and it becomes a consumer product you can buy and implement, then would be the time to pounce on it. i just want something that isnt dependent on a particular api. so many technologies have come and gone because of this kind of api limitation.
-
in theory at least as or most probably less disorientating as Track IR when set up properly because you look forwards relative to your body and that is forwards, look left and that is left, there is no turn your head slightly and wait for your screen to scroll to where you want it.
The delay between your head turning and the in-game camera turning with Freetrack should be imperceptible, if it's set up properly and your computer has the resources for it.
sorry not quite what I meant, what I am trying to get at is that you cant look 90 degrees left with Track IR because then you are not able to look at the monitor so I presume there is either a movement scaler or you have to look left and wait for the program to turn the view to 90 degrees, both of which bring in an element of disorientation because they are not how reality works, which a system like this would not have.
Oh, yeah, you can set up response curves and adjust sensitivity and stuff in freetrack (and I assume in trackIR). It's not that hard to get used to.
-
But how much publicity would it get us if we were one of the launch-ready titles making good use of the technology? /Devil's advocate
-
But how much publicity would it get us if we were one of the launch-ready titles making good use of the technology? /Devil's advocate
certainly an interesting possibility if a coder with the relevant/interest to learn the relevant skills is prepared to work on it
-
in theory at least as or most probably less disorientating as Track IR when set up properly because you look forwards relative to your body and that is forwards, look left and that is left, there is no turn your head slightly and wait for your screen to scroll to where you want it.
The delay between your head turning and the in-game camera turning with Freetrack should be imperceptible, if it's set up properly and your computer has the resources for it.
sorry not quite what I meant, what I am trying to get at is that you cant look 90 degrees left with Track IR because then you are not able to look at the monitor so I presume there is either a movement scaler or you have to look left and wait for the program to turn the view to 90 degrees, both of which bring in an element of disorientation because they are not how reality works, which a system like this would not have.
Oh, yeah, you can set up response curves and adjust sensitivity and stuff in freetrack (and I assume in trackIR). It's not that hard to get used to.
i dont think that will be an issue with hmds. trackir is way more sensitive cause you need to keep your eyes on the monitor, also you are severely angle limited because of the reflectors you probibly couldn't do optical head tracking with an hmd. with an hmd on the other hand you kinda want the virtual head in the game to do the exact same thing as your real head. for that you can just stick a 6 axis imu in the thing and call it a day, thanks to the ever decreasing cost of gyros and accelerometers (which when coupled together can track absolute position fairly well).
-
is the FOV of this thing 90 or 110 degrees? you mentioned 90 but i'm pretty sure isn't correct.
So,if i understand correctly, it needs a specific code for the stereoscopic vision, but do you know if it works good whit the ''normal'' 2d?
That said, we could always stick our trackclip pro to the visor and use it as always :)
-
is the FOV of this thing 90 or 110 degrees? you mentioned 90 but i'm pretty sure isn't correct.
So,if i understand correctly, it needs a specific code for the stereoscopic vision, but do you know if it works good whit the ''normal'' 2d?
That said, we could always stick our trackclip pro to the visor and use it as always :)
It is 90 degrees horizontal, the 110 degrees comes from the diagonal field of view. Vertically, the field of view is so wide that looking up and down with your eyes wouldn't reveal any borders, or so I have read from most reports.
I've ordered a dev kit for the Rift, mostly because I'm bad with money but also been convinced by John Carmack pushing on this thing. I'm fancying myself as a game programmer/graphics nerd so I can look into implementing Rift support once I have my hands on the SDK, which might come out before I get my hands on the headset. FreeSpace is easily one of my favorite games and would be pretty exciting to play it with the Rift. Hopefully it'll live up to all the hype the press is doing over it.
-
yep, i'm following it into MTBS3d forum and it's pretty awesome! People that tested it saw that it was incredible and the immersion factor is stunning....can't wait to but one of this things... but in the meantime i think i'll try to make my custom HMD.
-
Just wondering if any coders have ordered a development kit for the Oculus Rift from Kickstarter
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game
If so what do you think the chances of getting FreeSpace to work well with it are? Obviously it won't look great because of the low resolution though but it would be so immersive, the ability to look around would be so great. You could have a real cockpit. I am giddy with the thought of it.
Glen
Yes coders have one being delivered soon. Yes they plan to add support to FSO. (At least I will for myself if no one else plans to.)
-
To all newcomers
:welcome:
If you really intend to work on this stuff, I'm curious how it turns out!
-
Have any coders pre-ordered a devkit already? If no one has, I'll be interested in taking a gander into adding rift support.
-
Having rift support in FS engine would be great...anyway seems that in MTBS3d some programmer is developing some free software for non native rift games.
The main issue is that works with directx and not OpenGL...so some direct support from inside the HLP would be fantastic :)
-
That can't be true. Oculus Rift is supported in Doom 3 BFG Edition which is OpenGL. It has nothing to do with the APIs but just how you deliver the framebuffer.
-
its essentially just a single monitor with a split screen thing going on. render the scene once from one eye to half of the frame buffer, and render the frame for the other eye to the other half of the frame buffer. both apis can do this. while driver level support for stereo falls flat on its ass, this approach does everything in game code. from eye shift to split screen right down to fisheye correction done in the shader.
-
Have any coders pre-ordered a devkit already? If no one has, I'll be interested in taking a gander into adding rift support.
Yes. I have one being delivered in march. Been looking for something like exactly like FSO to add support to.
-
Well if your OpenGL is up to snuff, I say go for it. How familiar are you with rendering programming in general?
-
Hm, ja... and if nothing speaks against it add rendering paralax'd frames to quad frame buffers subsequently at first, so everybody with a Quadro card could run SCP in S3D :)
-
i ordered my Dev kit....i'd like to make some lens experiment for increase the Fov.
can't wait :)
-
Okay, I just attended Valve's Occulus Rift talk at GDC this afternoon. They mentioned a lot of pitfalls in implementing support for the device, especially when it comes to UI and HUD. Because of this, I'm not sure I can trust someone not familar with either the Freespace Open codebase or OpenGL with implementing proper support. Einhander, we really need to have a discussion over if you are entirely sure you will be able to implement Rift support on your own.
-
Here's a quick demo of a space sim that somebody is working on for the Oculus Rift:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UgY_MiUWqBY#at=58
What do we need to do to get OR support into Freespace? Is there any way I can help (without having any experience with the Freespace source code)?
-
buy all the wizards dev kits.
-
Dont know if this discussion can help, but someone are tryin'to implement openGLSL for Oculus rift:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=17081
-
this is the fisheye correction shader you need to use to compensate for the lens distortions.
-
And who are the wizards?
-
Valathil is a wizard.
-
:yes:
-
Hey Val, tell me you're waiting for the OR devkit and you'll start to work on FS2O inplementation ! if not, i suggest to all HLP tobuy a devkit for Val and force it to work on the code ;P
-
No thanks, I'd rather he works on cool stuff.
-
Valathil is a wizard.
And I'm not? :P
How come people always call Valathil a wizard but never me? :(
-
Why, all the SCP coders are wizards, dont'cha know? :D
And they all deserve OR dev kits...
-
In all seriousness, I'm still waiting for Einhander to respond because he expressed interest in implementing Occulus Rift support for FSO. If he's not responding, I'm going to take that as a sign that I should start on this on my own.
-
No thanks, I'd rather he works on cool stuff.
well i figure with rift support going in they would also do things like implement native anaglyph and shutter glasses support that more people could make use of. having a two eye framework and multiple head tracking sources all neatly integrated. that way they dont limit stereo support to just one device.
-
I'd still rather they work on cool stuff instead.
-
And I'm not? :P
Swifty is also a wizard.
I was originally going to post all the graphical SCP coders I knew off the top of my head, but then realized I could only remember Val at the time. :p
I'd still rather they work on cool stuff instead.
Boo hoo hoo, not every feature that get's worked on is going to be one you want.
(http://i.imgur.com/WYBoYXP.gif)
-
haters gonna hate
-
In all seriousness, I'm still waiting for Einhander to respond because he expressed interest in implementing Occulus Rift support for FSO. If he's not responding, I'm going to take that as a sign that I should start on this on my own.
It is something I'm planning to work on. But it's something I was planning to do on my own because it didn't appear there was a whole ton of interest. That said, it's become lower priority with recent life events so feel free to start if you want. I don't think I would have necessary time to dedicate to doing it in a timely fashion right now. Hope that helps.
-
I'm definitely interested to try out FS2 with the Oculus Rift, so it'd be great to see more progress in that regard. I think the interest is certainly there especially among the people that are going to use the Rift with Star Citizen, so getting it to work and getting the word out could lead to a lot more people checking out Freespace and HLP.
-
If there is anybody with an SCP badge that would like to have an Oculus Rift device, I can possibly see to it to procure possibly 2 of them.
I'm inclined to go with Swifty and Valathil as my choices on this one, especially since they would be able to collaborate more effectively that way.
If I could manage to pull off a third one, that one could be up for discussion.
-
I'd be down for that. I was looking into my budget to make room for a Rift purchase but not having to purchase one out of my own pocket would help out a lot.
-
And I have confirmation on 2 Oculus Rift units. I'll be reaching out once I know when they are shipping out to me to arrange for shipping out to their destinations.
-
Would love one but I can't see me h
having time to do anything with it since I can't even seem to get myself to write a spec for the new pipeline. my job seems to kill any motivation and time for SCP for me.
-
Do the responsible thing and quit your job! :D
-
Of course, If someone writes me a check every month ill work on SCP Full time no problem.
-
I'll write you a check every month... No guarantees about the amount though. :)
-
Guys my Oculus Rift has arrived...am i the only one that tried it?
I can assure you is the best experience of all times for me :)
I tested a sort of space sim (First Law) and i can only imagine the potential it could have in Freespace and all his mods.
I'd suggest you to buy it....i think it will be a piece of history:)
-
I want one, but it's a dev kit only so I wouldn't really have much use for it.
-
It provides a blurry low res image quality so yeah, it's really not worth it except to just demo the VR or to actually use it to test out VR enabled graphics code. Wait until the consumer versions come out which should at least be 1080p.
Any status update on our devkits, Zacam?
-
it can be low rez etc, but the effect it gives is outstanding,better than every 3d cinema i've ever tested in my life.
i think you can't understand until you really use it IMO.
Anyway my suggestion was for SCP coders who wants to work on it... i think implementing this in FSO would be great. :)
-
im kinda putting it off until a consumer version comes out. i dont really see the low res screen being too big of an issue. especially considering you want the game to run as fast as possible to keep all the latencies down, going for fluidity over quality.
-
ok guys, i tried to use Diaspora with the Oculus rift:
First of all, i had to download oculus overlay:
This software in development allows you to prewarp all things you have in your primary monitor.
Then i used Opentrack that simulate the trackir dll protocol with the Rift headtracking.
The result is pretty good,even if you don't have stereoscopic view.
It's weird, but even in 2d mode the HMD gives you more depht,and the fov is huge.
The only concern i had was the framerate that it makes the game unplayable,since you have to run the game in window mode,your graphic card have to duplicate the main monitor image into the hmd and FPS goes around 20fps with my HD 6850.
Hope this can helps: if you have an Oculus Rift give it a try :)
-
Guise ... they arrived:
http://imgur.com/a/8mbaJ#0
I only unboxed one of the two, to show what will be expected. The second one is ready to go for shipping, once I know where.
So, I should probably get a PM on where it needs to go, ya?
Also, there is now a Project on the Oculus dev space for "FreeSpace Open SCP". No idea how/where to control membership or get people associated to it, but it's there.
-
Rift ready here and willing to beta test as needed. Diaspora was top on my lists if games to google in conjunction with "Oculus Rift." Just let me know.
-
Damn..... now I'm tempted to buy before they go consumer level... ...must resist... must wait!
Aurel; Try freespace as well, don't just stop on Diaspora!
-
Oh man, I want one of these (and FSO support) a lot. I'll need a new computer and video card too, I'm sure.
I wonder how much decals and particles would need to change in the game to make them fit in with the 3D assets.
-
I know there are plenty of blogs out there talking about the OR, but I thought I'd share my experience so far and how it is relevant to space games.
I ordered my rift in April, with an estimated ship date of may, and got it three days ago. Drove me crazy! Anyway, one of the first things I tried was a Macross flight sim (I am a HUGE Macross fan). The interface of a real sci-fi fighter faces some of the same issues as VR ones. Hud elements need to be focused at infinity, or else they don't line up with objects in the real world. My targeting brackets seemed to be about 30 feet in front of me. Also, the current dev version is quite low res, so in flight sims when it is critical to locate and identify tiny objects long distances away, it falters. This isn't an issue since the consumer version will be higher resolution, but the current Dev kit doesn't lend its self well to flight sims because of that.
On the flip side though, I discovered while playing War Thunder that while dog fighting is harder, your situational awareness is vastly improved. Having a sens of scale, distance and speed meant I could come swooping in, air break with a flair and land on a carrier like some sort of hot shot. Let us not forget that the OR has the best head tracking I've seen, ever. And I've used military grade simulators. It puts my TrackIR to shame. It doesn't get confused, it just obeys in mere milliseconds. Every once in a while it can start getting off set (your head's natural 'forward' is not the same as looking forward in the sim), but with my view tied to my mouse too (I was flying with joystick and throttle), I could quickly correct this without issue.
Overall, for anyone who hasn't tried it, you just can't understand. I've used VR systems before, and I've been imagining what OR is like since I first read about it, but nothing was quite on the mark. It will change you, or at least change your opinions about PC gaming. I'm 100% convinced this is the future. I'm no longer saving up to replace my three 22" screens with 23" 3D screens. I'm going to spend 1/5th the cash on a smaller screen that straps to my face and fills my field of vision.
-
Thanks for this post. I was thinking about upgrading my 37" sharp to something HD but if the Rift is cheap enough when it's released I may give that a go instead. Nice having options to think about.
-
Completely agree....i can't play anymore without using the OR...i have a 40'' Led full HD TV in front of my face but it became obsolete once you tried the Rift.
If you'll try it you can't go back....that's the point IMO. :)
-
Just out of curiosity, i reached to make work the old ''Beyond the red line'' in stereo 3d:
I used a lot of 3rdparty software and it becomes very unstable but ir worked:
Nthusin HMD beta version for the screen warp correction,
IZ3d as stereo injector,
Quindie GL Wrapper: a simple drag and drop dll file that convert OpenGl libraries in Direct3d
Windows game relocator: you'll need to run game in window,then this program will cut the windows frame from the game.
I'ts very unstable,and the UI is a mess, but once youre in game you'll be completely amazed from 3d effect...follow and shoot at the Cylon,and flyin'around the big potato was amazing, even without trackIr,no cockpit,and no customized HUD position.
I don't wanna to make pressions to anyone, but with the OR integration,i'm sure Freespace will benefit from all the VR community,making it finally enter in the current game generation for the next years.
Anyway i suggest you to test it...if you have some trouble please contact me :)
-
There's a really nice development blog by a guy making a new space sim, developing with the OR in mind. I've mentioned Enemy Starfighter before; these are the guy's experiences with the Rift:
http://enemystarfighter.com/blog/2013/9/5/vr-lessons-learned
One of the things is, as Aurel Tristen mentioned in August, that HUD elements be set to infinity. I figured that the things he figured out could be of some help, at least to eliminate some obvious missteps.
-
So, where are we with the Rift?