Author Topic: physics @ work!  (Read 13913 times)

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Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
well, yeah, would be like checking the subspace or nebula thing in fred, instead, there, you check ( more ) real physics.
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Offline LAW ENFORCER

  • Turret Fiend
  • 210
    • http://www.armouredstar.com
It would be the first game Ive heard to that switches between real and 'game' phusics by mission....:lol:
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Operation Return To Riker
www.ARMOUREDSTAR.com - the latest site is not finished yet!
[What we have here is the source to the Freespace ENGINE, not the Freespace GAME. By allowing the ENGINE to support all kinds of cool stuff, we're allowing the creation of all new GAMES] - TurboNed

 

Offline Grey Wolf

I'd say do it, and make it so both the player and the mission designer can choose what to use.  This could add new aspects to the game.

And no one go into the type of whining that was in the beam peircing thread, or I'm unleashing the Hitchhiker Dude of Justice Mk. II.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Krom

  • 25
I would like "real" physics in a space sim, except for one part, at least say the computer automatically stops the ship from turning,  or the ship will just start spinning around like crazy if you tell it to turn.

Imagine some of the fun moves you could pull off with more real physics...

 

Offline Grey Wolf

I'd say that could be prevented with computer controlled thrusters.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline petmar

  • 24
    • http://web.njit.edu/~pmm4/
I seem to recall an earlier post where we had found that there were AI thrusters on the fighters...
I still haven't gotten into the code to find if they can be disabled though...
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Stryke 9

  • Village Person
    Reset count: 4
  • 211
There aren't, that's just an explanation for why ships slow down if you need one. It's the physics model in actuality, that was a rationalization for how it could work.

 

Offline petmar

  • 24
    • http://web.njit.edu/~pmm4/
is the rock that i'm hiding under good and holy?
Okay... so then it's the physics that has to be fixed, not the thrusters. So then we just have to implement proper momentum.
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Stryke 9

  • Village Person
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  • 211
Weeell... sort of.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Actually there are thrusters!
 Look at the Violition dev sketches...
One can see small thruster facing on all sides, but they didn't put them on the models (they were small, and high-poly looking)

They are AI cantrolled in the game universe, not really.... But it does explain the fighter movements.
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Offline tEAbAG

  • 26
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
They are AI cantrolled in the game universe, not really.... But it does explain the fighter movements.


Thats what I always thought.  A little bit of thruster control would be pretty cool as long as it doesn't F-up the general feel of the controls.
If happiness is a warm gun and love is a battlefield, why should we give peace a chance?

C-130 rollin' down the strip
hits a rock and start to tip
its all right, its OK
full of soldiers anyway

I think we should go Mung his dead grandma. - anOn

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
I think the whole newtonian physics idea is something that some people will simply hate, while others will adore it.

Why don't Freespace ships do any I-War like battle?
Subspace.
Who would try to srtike something that can jump out way before anything has a chance to hit it?

So in FS battle would always be more or less "close-quarters".

However the physics would be great, but you would have to regulate the ships movement in more than a single way:
-Spinning was already mentioned
-Inertia: In some cases it would be vey useful if your ship kept going in the direction you were going, in other it would be a pain in the ***.

You should have a fast method for swithching between the two control methods. The first one would be rarely used.
Ingame terms I would love it - it would give ships real inertia instead latency. So I could go around a cruiser by simply pulling the stick next to it, and I would be already facing backwards when I fly past it.
*BTW. check ships.tbl the whole control method is summed up in it*

-Velocity: there should be a system tocap relative vel. so you can fly around more easyly.
Say you have a system to regulate map relative speed, one to regulate target relative acceleration.
Maybe a target approacher autopilot system too. It would accelerate half of the way then decelerate the rest, based on the relative path calculated from relative speed and acceleration, provinding the fastest transition.
If someone watched Macross:DYRL they know what I'm talking about.

The mass of ships - which by the time is only used for collisions - should be the base of the new kinetic system.
Ships will have to accelerations instead speed, as it is already used for rotation. However force shoud be used instead if we want to create a truly realistic model.
With this thrusters would have a certain power and if you got caught in a big ships thrust it could throw you in a direction instead just shaking you!

If it could be implemented on big ships that would be a real pluss - Imagine an Orian speeding at 150 (relative) than taking a "sharp" turn  - it would be thrown in a direction while you could play some cool message where the engine off. is complaining about the strain on the sturcture.

I will go back to the weapons issue too:
If we were to use realistic lasers you wouldn't see them, but aiming wouldn't be an issue either 'cause light would reach the target almost instantecously *ever played Mechwarrior ? :)*. It need some matter show it *in MW it's tha air*.
Plasma guns or any thing that fires projectiles should be visible.
That goes for particle projectile cannons as well since charged particles *ions most of the case - so it's an ion cannon in other terms* give off light.
Projectiles will have a latecny to hit - but it depends on their speed so ion cannons should be easy to aim as well.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2003, 07:56:03 am by 997 »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
I sorted out a solution for the "space sound" a while back:
There's no medium for sound - but who said you hear the guns' sound?!
Anyone ever heard a plasmagun firing a volley? *Hey what's that buzzing???:eek2: *
Most guns use high amount of energies - that should produce some radio interference - so you hear the radio waves that the guns byproduct during firing and charging.
When they hit something they could create similar interference and could induce your system when passing by.
For missiles it's the same, except when the do a pass-by it's their engines that do the interference.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 
Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
I sorted out a solution for the "space sound" a while back:
There's no medium for sound - but who said you hear the guns' sound?!
Anyone ever heard a plasmagun firing a volley? *Hey what's that buzzing???:eek2: *
Most guns use high amount of energies - that should produce some radio interference - so you hear the radio waves that the guns byproduct during firing and charging.
When they hit something they could create similar interference and could induce your system when passing by.
For missiles it's the same, except when the do a pass-by it's their engines that do the interference.

tha would also explain the sound when you're near a shivan vessel.
just another newbie without any modding, FREDding or real programming experience

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Offline Raptor

  • 210
I hate to rain on your parade, but I did an experment a short time ago to get semi-realistic phyiscs in-game....

Had got the TBP v2 release, playing around with the Thunderbolt, and ended up able to circle around a Litith cruiser, pounding it with my gun, with almost unable to hit me!.  Yes, I was flying sideways, and there was plenty of sliding going on!

Just play around with the damp, rotdamp, velocity and acc fields and see what happens;).

Was harder to control though, but thats because the logical place for the slide thruster buttons I was using for targeting.

Also, if you define a reverse velocity for your craft, and in game hold hold the reverse thrust key (default 'Z' key) you will go backwards.
...There ought to be something surreal about a Zoid offering romantic advice...and yet there is not. It seems perfectly normal that the Liger is giving Bit advice on relationships, and it shouldn't, but it does. Dangit man, you've confused me again.[/I]
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Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor
I hate to rain on your parade, but I did an experment a short time ago to get semi-realistic phyiscs in-game....

Had got the TBP v2 release, playing around with the Thunderbolt, and ended up able to circle around a Litith cruiser, pounding it with my gun, with almost unable to hit me!.  Yes, I was flying sideways, and there was plenty of sliding going on!

Just play around with the damp, rotdamp, velocity and acc fields and see what happens;).

Was harder to control though, but thats because the logical place for the slide thruster buttons I was using for targeting.

Also, if you define a reverse velocity for your craft, and in game hold hold the reverse thrust key (default 'Z' key) you will go backwards.


I already tried most of that with an SF Mara.
However using plain latency factors as it is now would be a pain when designing ships. If all you had to do was set a mass and a throtle power in each direction and let the physics engine handle everything else would be much easier.
What we can use right now is just a simulation of the effects physics would have on the ships - and it would be still far.
Try I-War and you'll see waht I mean.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline petmar

  • 24
    • http://web.njit.edu/~pmm4/
And now, a slight redirection...
I was just wondering if anyone would know how to do active gravity, as I'm doing a planet-based campaign.
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Hmm...
You chose probably the most difficult thing to model - well there are more diffucult things, but this is quite difficult as it is.

I guess you know the law of gravity:

The gravitational force between two object is the following.

F=G*m1*m2/R(2)

Quote
Note that this can only be used for two objects to truly descript their movement.


Where G is a constant it's value is aproximatly 6.67E-11 N/m(2) so it's a really small value. So the force is very weak - but we're talking about planets, so this mean planets have a huge mass.
Strictly the law above is about centres of mass so when simulating you can calculate with the planet centre as their position.

However we're still not out of the woods yet.

Quote
Do you plan to model the motion of planets inside the solar system?
If yes continue, if you plan to model moons continue and replace sun with planet the planet with moon. If not skip this part.

 
----------------------------------
Planets are orbiting a sun - leave multi star systems for now, this is gona be very complicated even without that -, so they have a velocity and gravitation provides the centripetal force to keep them on track .
Quote
*no it's not circular motion, did you know that Kopernicus' model was mainly not accepted because, his model devised planets going on perfect circles - he simply couldn't predict the astronimic events as good as the Ptolemaian astronomers, who used really complex, but very accurate models to show the stars and planets path around the skyglobe*

You could use Kepler's laws.
[list=1]
[1]A planet's path is an elipse, where the sun is in one of the focuses. The planet goes around following the elipse.
[2]During equal times the tangets *between the sun and the planet* cover equal suraces.
[3]There is a correlation between the elipse's big axis:
a(3)/T(2) is a constant for every system.
[/list=1]

The easiest way to model the whole whing would be to make the planet go around a path already created, so you won't have to deal with the varying forces only acceleration.

The path should be a null object, that you can spin around its focus if you want more realism. The planet's speed along the path will have to calculated form Kepler's second law *sorry I haven't taken the effort to do it right now*
---------------------------------

If you want to model the way ships go around a planet, then you should consider that each and every ship would accelerate towards a planet with the same acceleration. (F=m*a and F=m*M*g/R(2) divide with m and you see that that a does  not depend on the smaller objects mass)

The tricky part is determining how they would move.
If you have a newtonian physics than it's simply adding an accceleration toward the planets centre.

----------------------------------

In FS terms you're in BIG trouble.
Forget planet movement - that's still way too big.

If you use smaller models and pretend they're really far, you may end up.....
Hmm, maybe there's something that can be done like that, but definitly not the active gravity simulation you're looking for.
If the ship're far enough to do that, gravity wouldn't be an issue either.
If they're close the model's not going to be enough.

Quote
Unless you plan to use the good 'ol background images, their data can be calculated accourding to the thigns above.


With such accelerations and speeds your ship's going to leave the spacebox in no time.
So I suggest moving the backround instead the ships, to simulate the speeds. A big planet won't change that much if you go 12.000 ahead and 5000 down.

What needs to be created is an active background, so you can create change background elements during a mission.
A spacesphere wouldn't hurt either. Placing a planet in a box could be a real pain.

You have to ask the source code team for those, I'm not a coder.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2003, 01:53:02 pm by 997 »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan