[S-99]

So uh... it's not really on a 'genocide' scale, but a lot of Islamic states have the death penalty for apostasy (i.e. converting away from Islam). So... idk, just throwing that out there.

What does apostasy have anything to do with the problem in c.a.r.? When muslims moved in they started **** with the christians, now the christians are starting **** with the muslims. The christians are the majority over there, and a lot of them are attacking and killing muslims for just being muslim.

[Luis Dias]

omg the thread has gone full meta.

Never go full meta!



Regarding the subject, it is quite unfortunately a very easy phenomenon to understand, because we have been here for too much goddamned time listening and hearing and reading about exactly equal stories to this one for decades, and if we were capable of being older, centuries and millenia.

This is the same story we heard in the nineties in the very middle of Europe. It brought up a war and eventually the genocidal criminals were brought to justice, a tad too late for a lot of innocent muslims. All these stories are similar in this fashion: once the "disease" is detected and eventually discussed and eventually acted upon, it's already too late for too many people. Many times however, the cavalry never comes, and a whole genocidal movement will actually carry its fever to the bitter end. "Cleanse the land of the evil curse", use any words at their disposal (religious or not, whatever), us-vs-them (and all our troubles are because of them, obviously, so we better take care of them!), rile up the population, and at the end only blood is left.

Blood of innocent people. Will this never end?

[General Battuta]

I think Battuta is being a little too hard on Aardwolf.  Part of "being respectful" is to avoid making unwarranted assumptions about what someone meant.  If a post isn't clear, the best thing to do is to ask for clarification or elaboration

Exactly what happened, as the record shows.

[InsaneBaron]

omg the thread has gone full meta.

Never go full meta!



Regarding the subject, it is quite unfortunately a very easy phenomenon to understand, because we have been here for too much goddamned time listening and hearing and reading about exactly equal stories to this one for decades, and if we were capable of being older, centuries and millenia.

This is the same story we heard in the nineties in the very middle of Europe. It brought up a war and eventually the genocidal criminals were brought to justice, a tad too late for a lot of innocent muslims. All these stories are similar in this fashion: once the "disease" is detected and eventually discussed and eventually acted upon, it's already too late for too many people. Many times however, the cavalry never comes, and a whole genocidal movement will actually carry its fever to the bitter end. "Cleanse the land of the evil curse", use any words at their disposal (religious or not, whatever), us-vs-them (and all our troubles are because of them, obviously, so we better take care of them!), rile up the population, and at the end only blood is left.

Blood of innocent people. Will this never end?

Only if people would learn the principles of their own faith (Charity, conversion through persuasion, moral treatment of others) and stop using religion as an excuse to lash out at old enemies, find scapegoats, distract their people from the failings of their own government, et cetera. Most religions, taken seriously, don't consider conversion by force to be worth squat, but that doesn't stop people like these. The Apostles are probably turning in their graves over this.

[MP-Ryan]

Saying what's happening (and has happened since time immemorial) in Africa today is about religion is like saying the historical Irish situation is about religion, or what happened in the Balkans was about religion.  Or for that matter, Syria, Iraq, etc.

It's a curious bit of irony that whenever someone says a conflict is due to religion, you can be nearly 100% certain that the conflict is actually about something else entirely.  And so it goes in Africa too.  People all over the world, and in Africa in particular, have made killing each other over reasons nearly incomprehensible to residents of many Western nations into a bit of a macabre art form.  From Somalia, to Sierra Leone, to Rwanda, and many other nations, most people have very little idea of what actually happens in Africa.

Doesn't make what's happening in CAR any less reprehensible, though.  But the point is, it isn't really about what god people worship.

[InsaneBaron]

Saying what's happening (and has happened since time immemorial) in Africa today is about religion is like saying the historical Irish situation is about religion, or what happened in the Balkans was about religion.  Or for that matter, Syria, Iraq, etc.

It's a curious bit of irony that whenever someone says a conflict is due to religion, you can be nearly 100% certain that the conflict is actually about something else entirely.  And so it goes in Africa too.  People all over the world, and in Africa in particular, have made killing each other over reasons nearly incomprehensible to residents of many Western nations into a bit of a macabre art form.  From Somalia, to Sierra Leone, to Rwanda, and many other nations, most people have very little idea of what actually happens in Africa.

Doesn't make what's happening in CAR any less reprehensible, though.  But the point is, it isn't really about what god people worship.

That's more or less what I was getting at. Religion is less of a motivation for these crimes than a for-the-media "justification". If people like this were actually interested in the good of their religion, they wouldn't be making it look bad in front of the world.

[Aardwolf]

Religion is less of a motivation for these crimes than a for-the-media "justification". If people like this were actually interested in the good of their religion, they wouldn't be making it look bad in front of the world.

Clearly they don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks, and they don't expect to ever face any consequences for their actions. But they're using a religious war as a recruiting tool, and religious propaganda doesn't bring in recruits unless the recruits subscribe to that religion.

[MP-Ryan]

Religion is less of a motivation for these crimes than a for-the-media "justification". If people like this were actually interested in the good of their religion, they wouldn't be making it look bad in front of the world.

Clearly they don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks, and they don't expect to ever face any consequences for their actions. But they're using a religious war as a recruiting tool, and religious propaganda doesn't bring in recruits unless the recruits subscribe to that religion.

Or their version of what they think it is

Study Irish history sometime.  It's quite profound that in a conflict that is largely and popularly characterized as Catholics vs Protestants, the driving motivation has squat to do with the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.  It's power politics from beginning to end.  Religion is just a handy filter (commonly substituted for by football uniforms/colours, etc).

The same is largely true in CAR.  It's not a difference of beliefs, it's a difference in politics that marginally correlate to beliefs.  Ergo, it's easier to say "Muslims" than the lengthy paragraph of what really has the "Christian" majority out murdering people in the streets.

[Luis Dias]

Oh definitely!

Although perhaps I wouldn't go as far as to say that power and politics have "nothing" to do with Religion in the first place! This is that minor detail that really separates us here, MP. "Protetantism" and "Catholicism" aren't these amazing religious theologies that came only about by a priori thinking. They were formed precisely with political powers in mind, they were shared and forced upon for political and power motives, and so on and so on. Hell, the UK version of christianity was born out of political necessity entirely!

Yes, yes, you will say "There you go again Luis, you are trying to drive me mad!! That was what I was saying all along!", bear with me. What I am really saying here is that Religion, the big R, deals and swims precisely in these power politics moves and necessities. Religion *has* a lot to do with them too.

[Aardwolf]

The same is largely true in CAR.  It's not a difference of beliefs, it's a difference in politics that marginally correlate to beliefs.  Ergo, it's easier to say "Muslims" than the lengthy paragraph of what really has the "Christian" majority out murdering people in the streets.

So someone at the top has constructed an "us-vs-them" scenario, and the people at the bottom are buying into it. So it's a problem of authoritarianism, yes? Of people letting someone tell them what to think, because they trust (too much) in their authority.

I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that religious faith breeds authoritarian faith in religious figures.

[Luis Dias]

“A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy, and its ruling caste, in order to keep its position, has to be thought of as infallible. But since, in practice, no one is infallible, it is frequently necessary to rearrange past events in order to show that this or that mistake was not made, or that this or that imaginary triumph actually happened.”

George Orwell.

[Aardwolf]

Upon further consideration (not related to Luis Dias' post), I retract my hypothesis about religion and authoritarianism. A world of atheists would not be immune to the authoritarianism trap; it would take an ideology of anti-authoritarianism to do that (and keep it that way).

[swashmebuckle]

Orwell's oeuvre is the authority on authoritarianism. Conversation oeuvre.

e: ++pungood

[Bobboau]

Upon further consideration (not related to Luis Dias' post), I retract my hypothesis about religion and authoritarianism. A world of atheists would not be immune to the authoritarianism trap; it would take an ideology of anti-authoritarianism to do that (and keep it that way).

I don't think you were wrong necessarily just because atheists would be capable of making the same mistake, there is a difference between saying A leads to B, and saying A is the only way to B.
A->B is an argument that would have to be investigated on it's own.
Though I'm not going to make that argument myself because I can easily imagine a religion that would be anti-authoritarian.
Though I suppose asking could it survive long term is a different question.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Though I'm not going to make that argument myself because I can easily imagine a religion that would be anti-authoritarian.

Isn't that Discordianism?

[Bobboau]

What if you worshiped Loki?
Satanism would be another one off the top of my head (you are your own god).

but yeah, Discordianism is a good example, assuming anyone took it seriously.

[Aardwolf]

Satanism as in LaVey's Church of Satan, or one of the other Satanisms?

[Bobboau]

LaVey