Author Topic: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion  (Read 55031 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Might I suggest including in the forum rules a "Rules and Expectations for HLP Staff" section. I've heard that mods/admins are (supposedly) held to a higher standard than users, but I've never seen an explanation of what that actually means. The higher standard apparently applies even to former staff, as this ironic blast from the past quoted below would indicate.

Guys, you really ought to know better -- especially Fury!  He gets a month's ban for being a former admin who should be leading by example, not leading negatively by example. :wtf:

Amazing.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Aren't these the rules to live by?

I don't know.
Now, that was glib.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
For those without access to the project lead board, this is the first post in the linked thread, titled "Rules for Leaders":

Galemp found this on a poster in a Verizon store and forwarded it to me.  I think it's absolutely brilliant, so I'm reposting it here.  Remember this when you manage your projects. :)

1. Leadership is an opportunity.  The title of leader doesn’t make you a leader; it merely affords you the opportunity to become one.  In fact, the title really only buys you enough time to influence your employees or to lose their respect.  It is unwise to believe you’ve suddenly become more competent because of a promotion.

2. Leadership must be earned.  A leader doesn’t automatically have followers; he has subordinates.  How you act as a leader determines whether or not your subordinates become your followers.  Subordinates only follow you as far as they have to.  Followers, on the other hand, go the second mile.

3. Leadership requires results.  Ultimately, leaders are measured by their results, not their good intentions.  You must continue to prove yourself each day because tenure and experience are not substitutes for results.
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Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I didn't know if it would be divulging privileged information to take things out of private into public, so I linked it.

But yeah, that's it.

I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on Goober too much. He and Sandwich do have a point that competence matters, and that in certain cases, for certain purposes, it should come first. So I'm actually not for banning him, even considering all the things he's done in the past, that the public does not even know. I mean, if he goes, who would we point to as an example of what not to do, or be.

It's just that technical competence is not where things stop. There are other skills to hone. And sometimes, the lack of those skills means that even though all of the technical competence is there, things still do not get done.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:39:30 pm by BlackDove »

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I feel all of this is immaterial since Goober hasn't even replied yet.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
It may be somewhat cathartic though.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I feel all of this is immaterial since Goober hasn't even replied yet.
I'm not sure if there's any point in him doing so. What would you have him say? I don't want him to post an insincere, manufactured apology designed to tick the necessary boxes, and a redesigned apology would make me suspicious that that is all it is.

I don't think he thinks what happened was wrong, only the fact it shouldn't have been him doing it that was wrong.

He might not be the only one who thinks that considering that thread is still after all this time not restored.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
...the thread was put back a day or two ago.

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm not sure what Goober could post at this point either, but an unconditional "I was wrong and I'm sorry" would at least improve my expectations of him.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
...the thread was put back a day or two ago.
:)

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
...the thread was put back a day or two ago.
:)

Where is it? I still want to know what exactly he said that got him accused of being a white supremacist.

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Offline jg18

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
There are plenty of things that would result in no extra chances. Deleting the thread wasn't done against the wishes of the other administrators but more because Goober believed he had permission to deal with that thread. The way he dealt with it raises serious questions about his competence as an admin but I wouldn't classify it as a "Do that and you're gone" style abuse of administrative powers. Especially since Goober did say that deleting the thread was a mistake.
Thank you, kara.

That all sounds fair to me and qualifies as
[...]  real answers to my questions above

TBH, I still don't understand why the staff agreement allows Goober to continue posting in GD/PD, but I guess that's a case of
I get that admins will sometimes make decisions that make a lot of people unhappy
and IMO it's not worth my getting riled up over that alone.

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Where is it? I still want to know what exactly he said that got him accused of being a white supremacist.

It's the "turn over of power" thread from pol-disc: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96929.0

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
...the thread was put back a day or two ago.
:)

Where is it? I still want to know what exactly he said that got him accused of being a white supremacist.

here it is
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 06:22:45 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline jg18

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
As for
That said, Goober did promise to apologise and what he has posted thus far is completely lacking.

Reviewing the crux of his public statement...

I do agree that the splitting and removing the thread was a violation of the principle of not moderating a dispute in which you are a party.  For that I apologize.  As I said in the internal board, I made two mistakes here: I misinterpreted an invitation to make a post as an invitation to take moderator action, and I did not double check before going ahead and doing it.
This is all technically correct, but it misses the point as to why I and a number of other forum members are deeply angry about his actions.

I can't tell whether Goober
  • does not understand why a number of people are angry with him over this
  • does understand but, for whatever reason, doesn't care
But I'll be forgiving and assume (1).

First, I do get that Goob would take perceived attacks on his moral integrity extremely seriously. I learned early on from a PM conversation with him that he does have a very strong sense of morals, even if those morals may be markedly different from a number of other users', including mine:

In full disclosure, I subscribe to a moral code [...]
The details/context aren't important, and even though it was over 9 years ago, the point stands.

Thus I buy Goober's perspective that he saw his reply to Mjn as a vigorous and justified defense against what he perceived to be an unfounded and deeply offensive attack on his character. I disagree sharply with Goob on a long list of political and religious matters, but he's no white supremacist. :no: :nono:

Yes, I know Mjn said
First... I accused Goober of being a white supremacist supporter.
However, Goober perceived it as "white supremacist", even if incorrectly, and perceptions matter.

Similarly—and very importantly—even if Goob
  • felt that he was defending himself from being unfairly attacked
  • genuinely didn't view his reply as a personal threat
  • honestly thought he was authorized to moderate a thread that included strong personal accusations against him
many of us perceived (and still perceive) his behavior very differently, and again, perceptions matter.

In fact, I learned this point on my very first day here:

My first post on HLP offered proofreading services to campaign designers. The original version of the post included some text that I intended as a lame "har har" joke.

But someone happened to find that extra text deeply offensive. And the whole thing blew up in my face.

Fun fact about that thread:
Spoiler:
If TopAce hadn't jumped in right away with his, uh, distraction, I would have left that first day and never come back, humiliated as I was. :blah: But luckily, things turned out differently.

Suppose that a ton of people had found that text offensive and not just one person. In that scenario, it might well have been reasonable to expect me to post a public apology for a remark that many perceived as inflammatory, even if I thought it was completely innocuous. Because, once again, perceptions matter.

And I was a nobody who had just joined. Consider how much higher the stakes would have been for an incident of far greater magnitude involving someone who had been on the forum for years, with "Administrator" under their name.

Oh, and for the record, I did apologize. Here's an excerpt from a PM I sent to Goober shortly after that:
And as I mentioned on IRC, I'm really sorry about this mess. I didn't expect my post to cause any of that, although in retrospect I guess I should have. I was expecting that people would look at the username, roll their eyes, and ignore it. I guess that's what they would have done if I hadn't included that extra paragraph about the username origin.
(For anyone who didn't know, "jg18" is not the username I registered under.)

Anyway, that's my take on what happened. Hope that helps move the conversation forward. :)

 

Offline jg18

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
The TL;DR of all of that: it's possible that both sides were acting in good faith and the fundamental issue may have been serious differences in perceptions, but perceptions matter and they matter a lot.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think a basic problem here is that the United States is in a really bad spot politically.

While Donald Trump is not so much a white supremacist as a Trump supremacist, he's happy to support anyone who'll support him, including white supremacists. So you hit a thorny question: is supporting someone who supports white supremacists because they support him morally equivalent to supporting white supremacists? (Unsurprisingly, mjn and I would both say 'yes'.)

This is assuming you are willing to concede that Trump supports and emboldens white supremacists. Goober was willing to disavow white supremacy, which is laudable and is more than Trump has done. I think Trump understands, in one way or another, that refusing to ever give his opponents anything, even a concession to 'disavow white supremacy' or 'respect the results of the election', makes him look stronger to his base. If you refuse to acknowledge any part of your opponent's worldview, even basic facts, then there's no way you can lose a debate.

I wrote a lot of other stuff but I don't see it going anywhere interesting or constructive.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
To restate the post I deleted earlier in the thread, If you support Hitler purely because of his infrastructure policy, you're still a Nazi.

If Trump being so unwilling to disavow white supremacy isn't a dealbreaker for Goober, then clearly Goober doesn't have as much of a problem with white supremacy as he wants to think he does.

Had he been alive in the 30s, he's the kind of person who'd have said Hitler wasn't actually serious about the antisemitism.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 05:47:25 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
This is assuming you are willing to concede that Trump supports and emboldens white supremacists. Goober was willing to disavow white supremacy, which is laudable and is more than Trump has done. I think Trump understands, in one way or another, that refusing to ever give his opponents anything, even a concession to 'disavow white supremacy' or 'respect the results of the election', makes him look stronger to his base.

If Trump being so unwilling to disavow white supremacy isn't a dealbreaker for Goober, then clearly Goober doesn't have as much of a problem with white supremacy as he wants to think he does.

See, this is what I mean when I refer to an "echo chamber". Here on HLP - and indeed, in much of the internet communities - the falsehood that gets repeated constantly is that Trump won't denounce white supremacy.

This is not only a lie, it's an easily disprovable lie (I found the articles below in 5 minutes of Googling)! C'mon, people... do some basic fact-checking before you simply echo what you hear. I'm sure Trump provides plenty of "ammo" to use in your arguments against him; there's no need to repeat the falsehoods.

2017: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40929627
2019: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/trump-condemns-racism-bigotry-and-white-supremacy.html
2020: https://www.voanews.com/usa/amid-growing-criticism-trump-condemns-white-supremacy
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I think it would be intensely counterproductive to litigate in this thread the question of whether Goober is a white supremacist or a supporter thereof, because that’s not what’s actually at issue here. The general consensus, as I understand it, is that correct or not it was an acceptable remark to make in the context and therefore the issue here is Goober making legal threats and then unilaterally deleting the whole discussion.
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