[Mikes]

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. Wing Commander has always seemed so transparent in its inspiration that it's impossible to believe in it as a fictional world. It reads like a pastiche, a slightly stuffy fan letter to everything that inspired it rather than a real place.

Mh, Wing Commander:

The first one didn't really have much story to speak of.
The second one needs to be commended to be one of the first games to have a cinematic story at all.
The 3rd one I would wholeheartedly agree with you ...
... not sure about the 4th one. I would say I disagree there, but it's really been to long since I played it and I was much younger back then.
Well and the 5th one was  steaming pile of poo by all respects.

Which one are you referring to?

[Dragon]

He's obviously talking about WC3, which is what people mostly think of when you say "Wing Commander". I was actually thinking of WC4 when I posted, so we might've been talking about two very different games all this time. WC3 is a rather light-hearted, affectionate tribute to WWII Pacific Theater. While it also had great characters, the story didn't even try to hide it's inspirations. As such, it shouldn't be taken too seriously. WC4 is where the series really shines, and takes a darker turn. WC2 also had this, but it shows it's age somewhat.
As for WC1 and WCP, well, the former didn't really had an  overarching story (though it's characters were good, and there was a lot of interaction for the time), while the latter was still quite fun, but rather sub-par. I didn't care for any of Midway's pilots nearly as much as I did for those from Victory or Intrepid. Even Maniac wasn't half as funny as he used to be, not to mention a lot of interaction was simply gone. I might be wrong, but I don't remember a single cutscene in WCP where you actually had a choice what to say.

[NGTM-1R]

WC3 is a rather light-hearted, affectionate tribute to WWII Pacific Theater.

You know I'm trying to see that, but unless humanity is Japanese I don't think so, and we didn't have Japanese character in this franchise since Spirit gave her death haiku.

[Mikes]

As for WC1 and WCP, well, the former didn't really had an  overarching story (though it's characters were good, and there was a lot of interaction for the time), while the latter was still quite fun, but rather sub-par. I didn't care for any of Midway's pilots nearly as much as I did for those from Victory or Intrepid. Even Maniac wasn't half as funny as he used to be, not to mention a lot of interaction was simply gone. I might be wrong, but I don't remember a single cutscene in WCP where you actually had a choice what to say.

There was. Amongst them the famous choice of whether to kiss the blonde or the brunette lol ...  good old Wing Commander

[Dragon]

Now I do recall something like that, but WCP was rather unmemorable compared to the rest of the series, so I don't remember. Still, the choices were fewer and didn't really affect the game like they did with WC3 and 4.

You know I'm trying to see that, but unless humanity is Japanese I don't think so, and we didn't have Japanese character in this franchise since Spirit gave her death haiku.

You don't see that? Then you're either blind or didn't play the game. There's just about everything in there. Carrier battlegroups? Check. Covert warfare using undetectable ships? Check. A huge enemy battleship? Check. Enemy big about honor and combat? Check. An evil, exotic, militaristic empire? Check. A fleet crushed in a big surprise attack, leaving only a few dogged carriers? Check. Good guys flying about in Thunderbolts and Hellcats? Check. Big, war ending bomb? Check. I could go on like that for a while. In WC3, Confed - US and Kilrathi - Imperial Japan, and it's as clear as day. There are a few elements that are more SW than WWII (Behemoth, Trench Run), but in general, the story could very well be set in WWII and it would've worked just as well (though it'd be a shallow, US-centric version of it).

[NGTM-1R]

You don't see that? Then you're either blind or didn't play the game. There's just about everything in there. Carrier battlegroups? Check. Covert warfare using undetectable ships? Check. A huge enemy battleship? Check. Enemy big about honor and combat? Check. An evil, exotic, militaristic empire? Check. A fleet crushed in a big surprise attack, leaving only a few dogged carriers? Check. Good guys flying about in Thunderbolts and Hellcats? Check. Big, war ending bomb? Check. I could go on like that for a while.

Yes, you could, and you'd be wrong, because the actual dynamics of the war are not the ones being portrayed in WC3. The Confederation is losing the war. They're facing economic and military collapse in the very near future, which is why they've gone for the superweapons route. The entire game is about the Confederation's last gasp, and the end sequence is portrayed as the only possible shot of a people on the edge of defeat.

You've latched on to the most superficial possible answer. (And also missed Battuta's point since I'm pretty sure Batts was about to beat you over the head with the Man-Kzin Wars books.)

You want a proper World War 2 homage, go watch MS Gundam. You want a proper Pacific Front homage, I recommend Exo Squad.

[headdie]

yup and for a significant time after pearl harbour the american navy was battered, bruised and retreating.

and the nukes were used as a desperate attempt to not have to invade the mainland as the US at the time believed it would be Operation overlord again but with much higher percentage of US/Allied casulties

I would go as far as to say that the only significant difference between WWII and the setting of WC3 is the economic condition of the confederation.

As such I have to agree that there are more parallels than not

[NGTM-1R]

yup and for a significant time after pearl harbour the american navy was battered, bruised and retreating.

And then they won the war in that condition. Nope.

and the nukes were used as a desperate attempt to not have to invade the mainland as the US at the time believed it would be Operation overlord again but with much higher percentage of US/Allied casulties

That's not a parallel.

[Gray113]

Confed is losing against a far better, well equipped enemy and stands alone which was more similar to Japan, not the USA. The use of the temblor bomb was their last throw of the dice the failure of which would doom humanity. To compare the USA forces were well equipped, technologically superior and had support from other nations that were diverting their forces from conquered Germany. The reason that the US used the atom bomb was to force the surrender of Japan before the USSR had the chance to launch their own invasion of the Japanese home islands. To be honest I don't see any similarities between WC3 and the Pacific theatre.

[Dragon]

Well, I said that WC3 is a tribute to stories about USN carrier pilots in the Pacific Theater. It's not a historically accurate adaptation of WWII into space setting. It does gloss over many events (there isn't a Midway-style turning point battle, for instance), and references the entire scope of the war (Pearl Harbor, the nukes, fighter names, tactics...), but does not follow it's course to the letter. The portrayal of Kilrathi Empire in WC3 was definitely based on Imperial Japan. I'm not saying it's a complete recreation or a parody, but rather a tribute to classic stories from this time period. Also, Confed seem to actually have better equipment, minus the stealth. Kilrathi did have more ships, however, and they didn't had a problem with losing them.

[The E]

Yes, and that is all it is. There are no aspirations beyond that. All it wants to be is a pastiche of romantic ideas of fighter combat in WW2.

For people like me, or Batts, that is not enough. The genre is capable of so much more. Games are capable of so much more, and all it takes is a bit more ambition. Not money, or art, just a desire to be more.

There is one very important metric here that we can use to determine how the differing design philosophies of FS and WC have impacted the players, and that is the number of fan-made stories. Granted, FS had an easier entry point due to it shipping with the mission editor, but still, just going by the fan-made projects list on Wing Commander CIC and google, there is nothing that is comparable to the sheer number of new stories people were able to tell in FS.

A game like Wing Commander doesn't really engage the player's imagination. Games like FS, on the other hand, are talked about for years and years, analyzed for years and years, and thus do not age as fast as the Wing Commanders, with their rapidly zeerusting visions of the future.

[Luis Dias]

Obviously here to align with The_E and Batt's pov, to also point out that the "trench run" alluded here as the exception to the WW2's inspiration is actually and ironically the wrong example, since it's actually based on a WW2's movie.

Thing is, this whole WW2's turned pop sci-fi material in Star Wars, etc., and finally Wing Commander and so on, is really aged. We live in a post 9/11 world, and when I say "post" I even mean "Post even caring about 9/11", let alone the ww2 - the last really righteous, and largest, war that was ever fought. We live in a world with different worries, different traumas and different nightmares.

And yet, here comes Robert with his shallow nostalgia thinkin' "I'm gonna get them Star Wars again an' they gonna luvit". I mean, I love SW as the next guy, but I recognize it already as a 20th century art: a mix mash between Buck Rogers meets WW2 meets Casablanca meets Western flics. It's old. It has nothing new to give us. Heck, even Dune is something that seems completely from the next century to this nostalgia trip, and that's a novel that has 50 years already!

But that's perhaps its strength. Sometimes, well, why not go back at these things? And in any case, it's still possible that Robert hired a really good sci-fi writer to do his SP campaign. I'll wait and see, but I wouldn't bet on it other than being boringly about WW2 all over again.

[Dragon]

Yeah, that's the it's main strength these days. Sometimes, it's nice to go back to those times, to zeerusty, WWII-ish future, to old-timey fighter jocks and obviously evil, honor-obsessed aliens. Though TBH, I wouldn't want that for Star Citizen. While a nostalgic approach could work, I'd rather have something new this time. Considering the scale of Star Citizen, it should try to be much more than a nostalgia trip. I hope they will do so.

Obviously here to align with The_E and Batt's pov, to also point out that the "trench run" alluded here as the exception to the WW2's inspiration is actually and ironically the wrong example, since it's actually based on a WW2's movie.

Actually, it's a bit more complicated. "Dam Busters" isn't that well known, so the "trench run" is actually SW inspired. SW is, in turn, inspired by Dam Busters. It kind of goes like that, many motifs can be traced like that to antiquity.

Yes, and that is all it is. There are no aspirations beyond that. All it wants to be is a pastiche of romantic ideas of fighter combat in WW2.

You're still talking about WC3. Wing Commander =/= WC3, even if it's the most famous part. Take a look at WC4, or WC2 (the latter is rather dated, though). WC4 is completely unlike WC3 in that regard, being much darker and more ambiguous. Try it out, if you haven't yet.

There is one very important metric here that we can use to determine how the differing design philosophies of FS and WC have impacted the players, and that is the number of fan-made stories. Granted, FS had an easier entry point due to it shipping with the mission editor, but still, just going by the fan-made projects list on Wing Commander CIC and google, there is nothing that is comparable to the sheer number of new stories people were able to tell in FS.

I believe that there are two factors to take into consideration: times and engine accessibility. Wing Commander 4? 1996. FS2? 1999. Four years of difference, which is a really long time in internet evolution and computer technology. Wing Commander had books written about it, something which FS can't boast about. By the time of FS2, hardly anybody wrote books about video games anymore, but modding became much more popular. Times change. Another factor is that FRED gave people the ability to create missions for FS2, while none of the Wing Commanders were even moddable (WCP did have some capabilities, but that's it). FS2 campaigns are one step up from text fanfiction, and the latter does exist for WC universe. Another thing is that SCP massively prolonged FS2's lifetime. I believe that if it still used the engine from '99, there'd be much less campaigns made and the community would be a lot smaller. FS2 literally has one of the most malleable, flexible and easiest to mod engines I've seen. Plaintext tables, intuitive utilities and simple, yet powerful mission editor all go a really long way.
WC not only didn't get such thing as an SCP, it got WC: Prophecy, which, IMO, did more harm than good to the series. Overall, I believe that those disparities have a lot more to do with technicalities than with the story and universe presented.

[Luis Dias]

Actually, it's a bit more complicated. "Dam Busters" isn't that well known, so the "trench run" is actually SW inspired. SW is, in turn, inspired by Dam Busters. It kind of goes like that, many motifs can be traced like that to antiquity.

What I meant is that it goes back to the same source. It does and you don't have to bring Homer's Odyssey or something.

You're still talking about WC3. Wing Commander =/= WC3, even if it's the most famous part. Take a look at WC4, or WC2 (the latter is rather dated, though). WC4 is completely unlike WC3 in that regard, being much darker and more ambiguous. Try it out, if you haven't yet.

I remember watching all WC4's cinematics. Yes, that was something beyond WW2, but again, if Star Citizen pulled WC4 all over again, I'd probably be even more bored at it. Can you really blame me? I won't go into spoilers here, but come on, that twist has been pulled off so many times now it's not even worth a sigh.

Overall, I believe that those disparities have a lot more to do with technicalities than with the story and universe presented.

That's probably true and I side with you on this one. I know *exactly* what The_E is pointing out, and while I personally agree with him, that is, the reasons why I have much fonder memories of FS2 than WC4, why I hang here and debate, why I take these things with interest,  have nothing to do with technicalities, I think you make a convincing case on why probably most other people stuck with FS2 rather than WC4.

[Dragon]

I remember watching all WC4's cinematics. Yes, that was something beyond WW2, but again, if Star Citizen pulled WC4 all over again, I'd probably be even more bored at it. Can you really blame me? I won't go into spoilers here, but come on, that twist has been pulled off so many times now it's not even worth a sigh.

Actually, a new franchise would have a very difficult time even attempting something like WC4 did. Part of it's appeal was showing the darker, grayer side of a normally pretty light-hearted, black and white series. To do something like that, Star Citizen would have to establish a status quo, then subvert it halfway through. It's main campaign long enough to conceivably try it, but it'd not be a good move. WC4 is better than WC3, but it simply wouldn't work as well without the context of previous games. Familiar characters also played a very important role, it just wouldn't be the same if you didn't know half of those people before (some of them really well, even a familiar twist can be shocking if done with a character you thought you knew). To try doing something like WC4, but without all that, would be foolish and I don't think they'd attempt it.

[Luis Dias]

Makes sense. Same thing applies with FS2 regarding FS1.

[Black Wolf]

Actually, a new franchise would have a very difficult time even attempting something like WC4 did. Part of it's appeal was showing the darker, grayer side of a normally pretty light-hearted, black and white series. To do something like that, Star Citizen would have to establish a status quo, then subvert it halfway through. It's main campaign long enough to conceivably try it, but it'd not be a good move. WC4 is better than WC3, but it simply wouldn't work as well without the context of previous games. Familiar characters also played a very important role, it just wouldn't be the same if you didn't know half of those people before (some of them really well, even a familiar twist can be shocking if done with a character you thought you knew). To try doing something like WC4, but without all that, would be foolish and I don't think they'd attempt it.

Best way to do that would be something like the SOC loops in FS I reckon. You play along, twenty or thirty missions in the status quo, then you get sent away to do three or four missions in a new situation, new options, and possibly things aren't so black and white any more. Then things revert and you're back in familiar territory - but the knowledge that there is that hidden, other side to the universe you're presented with colours everything you see and do from that point on.

[Dragon]

This is a possible approach, but ideally, it won't be black and white from the beginning. It's meant to be a very open game, so the players should have the option to side with the aliens, and it shouldn't really be an evil one. What I was talking about was the sheer impossibility of re-creating anything resembling WC4-ripoff story for Star Citizen (addressing Luis Dias' concerns).

[Mikes]

What I don t get is why people focus on the "potential" single player story / plot of Star Citizen so much in this thread.

Even if they cut Squadron 42 out completely and only released the persistent universe (i.e. background story only, no plot) I would still be very very interested in this game.
With the level of immersiveness they are showcasing this looks like a roleplayers dream. Fully realised ship interiors and the ability to crew ships together with friends... for that alone, sign me up! LOL.

And if that wasn't enough: Full modding support and the ability to host your own servers.

Seriously... why are we even talking about the story? I don't remember looking forward to a game quite so much since the Space Sim era ended and that is not gonna change even if the Squadron 42 part ends up lackluster

[Black Wolf]

See, I'm the exact opposite. If they released this as a multiplayer only, persistent universe role playing game, I'd not even glance at it, space sim or not. Appealing to the greatest possible fanbase is a good move, I don't think that's going to be in question.

Plus, if there was no capacity for single player, how would anyone make the (surely inevitable) FS mod for it?