[Commander Zane]

I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.

the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it

Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.

Why didn't the Sath just jump out then?

Or deploy bombers?

Or call in a Ravana?

Or ram them anyway?

Probably for the same reason why one only allied flagship and one bomber wing with zero fighter escort was sent in to destroy the Oh-so-fearsome-Sathanas? And also for the same reason why the Sathanas didn't have any sort of capital ship escort of its own, and that its only reaction to the one allied bomber wing was to send in a single fighter wing to intercept it?

Oh and not to mention, why didn't the Sathanas jump out when it became apparent that it would meet its demise then?

[Droid803]

I once did a test mission where two Orions jumped close to the sath, one on each side.

the Sath couldn't turn without ramming either of them, so it tired to get some distance, and the Orions kept beaming it

Eventually, it did get enough distance to try and turn, but it was well below 30% by that time, and enough time has passed for the Orions to jump out.

Why didn't the Sath just jump out then?

Or deploy bombers?

Or call in a Ravana?

Or ram them anyway?

Probably for the same reason why one only allied flagship and one bomber wing with zero fighter escort was sent in to destroy the Oh-so-fearsome-Sathanas? And also for the same reason why the Sathanas didn't have any sort of capital ship escort of its own, and that its only reaction to the one allied bomber wing was to send in a single fighter wing to intercept it?

Oh and not to mention, why didn't the Sathanas jump out when it became apparent that it would meet its demise then?

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60663.0.html

This fixes some of those problems. (actually, all of them except the one where the Sath doesn't try to run).

[esarai]

Not sure if anyone else would have done this, but I would focus on heavier firepower.

1.) New class of ship--Strike Corvette. Imagine one corvette-sized flying beam cannon. Mash up anything on the receiving end really fast.

2.) deploy Orbital Defense Cannons--Kinda like turning an Arcadia into a massive beam cannon, with engines for strategic re-location of weapon system. Blast the crap out of anything approaching a planet with extreme prejudice.

3.) Field Tactical Theater-Range Missiles. TTRMs are just a little larger than bombers, really fast, and unbelievably effective against formations or ships larger than cruisers. Usually loaded onto destroyers or missile installations. Have incredibly long range (20 km). Keeps the interceptors and flak gunners on their toes.

4.) Field heavier bombers (on the order of 80 m long), defended by five turrets, fast as an Ares, and still capable of carrying 16 Helios missiles.

5.) Make sure that ships on the scale of the colossus have appropriately sized heat sinks (preferably ones that can refocus heat energy to make the beams more efficient and pack more punch).

6.) Stealth Assault Fighters.

[Commander Zane]

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60663.0.html

This fixes some of those problems. (actually, all of them except the one where the Sath doesn't try to run).

Beta tested it.

Not sure if anyone else would have done this, but I would focus on heavier firepower.

1.) New class of ship--Strike Corvette. Imagine one corvette-sized flying beam cannon. Mash up anything on the receiving end really fast.

2.) deploy Orbital Defense Cannons--Kinda like turning an Arcadia into a massive beam cannon, with engines for strategic re-location of weapon system. Blast the crap out of anything approaching a planet with extreme prejudice.

3.) Field Tactical Theater-Range Missiles. TTRMs are just a little larger than bombers, really fast, and unbelievably effective against formations or ships larger than cruisers. Usually loaded onto destroyers or missile installations. Have incredibly long range (20 km). Keeps the interceptors and flak gunners on their toes.

4.) Field heavier bombers (on the order of 50 m long), defended by five turrets, fast as an Ares, and still capable of carrying 16 Helios missiles.

5.) Make sure that ships on the scale of the colossus have appropriately sized heat sinks (preferably ones that can refocus heat energy to make the beams more efficient and pack more punch).

6.) Stealth Assault Fighters.

And all horribly impractical if not impossible to achieve.

[esarai]

Really? I don't think a cannon capable of slicing a Demon or Ravana in half with one or two shots while staying at the size of a corvette is impractical. If anything it seems like a more efficient use of resources.  And being able to soften up an incoming armada before hitting beam range isn't practical? It's pretty much like launching a tomahawk cruise missile at them.

I suddenly realize that 50m is approximately ursa sized. I mean something on around 80-100m.

Why would all these be impractical or impossible? As far as I know, most of these are just applications of strategies that have already been tried and proven effective.

[eliex]

Really? I don't think a cannon capable of slicing a Demon or Ravana in half with one or two shots while staying at the size of a corvette is impractical.

Yes - just look at the Mjolnir cannon and it's only about a quarter of a Deimo's size. 

[Commander Zane]

Try to make a Monitor the size of a FreeSpace Corvette with a powerful enough reactor to power the beam cannon AND the engines (Which also need to be large enough) to make it maneuver fast enough to bring the weapon to bear as well as making it armored enough to withstand more than one Helios impact.

Yes - just look at the Mjolnir cannon and it's only about a quarter of a Deimo's size. 

And also produces about 1/3rd the damage of the GTVA's most powerful beam cannon.

And being able to soften up an incoming armada before hitting beam range isn't practical? It's pretty much like launching a tomahawk cruise missile at them.

I suddenly realize that 50m is approximately ursa sized. I mean something on around 80-100m.

Oh here's a tidbit, the Tsunami, the Harbinger, the Cyclops, the Helios, the Shivan Bomb and Megabomb, those can be shot down, so what's to say that a MASSIVE tactical warhead won't be able to be taken down?

And bombers the size of freighters yet as fast as an Ares with five turrets, good luck giving it the engines and armor / shielding to withstand the approaching stages of the attack while having enough firepower to take down the big ships before having to rearm, and then of all things, making sure it's cost effective enough to have more than two ships to be ever produced.

[esarai]

Monitor as in the U.S. Civil War era ironclad warship?

Just hollow out the hull of a Deimos, cut a hole in the front end, remove the four TerSlashes and pack in as large a beam as you can. If the hardware you remove weighs the same as the cannon you put in, then you've got a badass gun that moves like a Deimos.

These are all things that would be taken into consideration upon engaging in a project like this. If you're going to build a mobile cannon, it doesn't make too much logical sense to have the gun take up all the room. It's pretty obvious that the cannon wouldn't be the entire ship, just as it should be pretty obvious that a Mjolnir isn't all gun.

@Missile comment: Do note these missiles travel well in the range of anywhere from 300 to 900 m/s, making them very hard to stop. In my simulations, these have a 2/3 direct hit ratio, and even if they don't directly hit the target, they will still inflict considerable damage to the target by the time ship-board weapons can take them out.

@ Bomber comment: The larger bomber will have a much larger reactor, and armor will scale proportionately, taking that out of consideration. Weight of missile bays does not increase the same way weight of armor does when a ship is enlarged. Enlarged missile bays can carry more missiles. Sacrifice some loadout for engine space and problem solved.

Ursa = 6 Helios. Ursa X 2 = 12 Helios, or more depending on layout. Sacrifice some and add engines. Speed solved. 10 helios with more speed. 

[Commander Zane]

I just said that it wouldn't. A Mjolnir is gun, reactor, armor. A Deimos retrofitted as a beam Monitor would be gun, reactor, engine, armor.

And by Monitor I pretty much mean a gun placed on a ship the size of an MGB.

[esarai]

MGB?

And it wouldn't what? Your previous posts are all rhetorical questions, so I'm not really sure what you said wouldn't do whatever it was that it wouldn't do.

[Commander Zane]

Motor Gun Boat.

And if you're talking about my reference to Retail's High Noon, they were meant to be blatantly obvious points following other previous posts.

If you mean when I said this:

Try to make a Monitor the size of a FreeSpace Corvette with a powerful enough reactor to power the beam cannon AND the engines (Which also need to be large enough) to make it maneuver fast enough to bring the weapon to bear as well as making it armored enough to withstand more than one Helios impact.

And you said this:

These are all things that would be taken into consideration upon engaging in a project like this. If you're going to build a mobile cannon, it doesn't make too much logical sense to have the gun take up all the room. It's pretty obvious that the cannon wouldn't be the entire ship, just as it should be pretty obvious that a Mjolnir isn't all gun.

Yes, I know that it isn't going to be all gun, the Mjolnir isn't all gun either.

[Droid803]

Well, I strapped a Mjolnir to a Leviathan and it still couldn't kill a Demon. Sure, it could take down Molochs and Rakshasas just fine, but LReds just kicks its ass.
I don't think strapping something twice as powerful would do much better, honestly.

Making a massive, fast, flying beam cannon could be done, but I'd say it would likely be at the cost of armor and anti-fighter armament. Think one big frontal turret (LRBGreen), six flak guns, and the armor of an Aeolus on something the size of a Deimos. It would be effective if escorted, but on its own it's just gonna get pwnt.

Orbital defense cannons would work - for all we know, they could actually exist. You never actually see something bombing a planet, so I don't know if they're really needed. It'd probably be a better idea to make stuff like GTI Acherons which can be dragged around to jump nodes by something common, like an Argo.


Tactical Theater-Range Missiles... Well, I'd guess they could make something like that, but what would they use for a warhead? Do recall that even the Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce and doesn't provide that much damage. There's probably a reason you only get to use helios once in the campaign, and only against the Sathanas. If the GTVA could afford to deply them en masse, I would believe that you would see them in use against the NTF... Also, even with a 20km range for TTRMs, beams beat it. Beams, at maximum, can fire 30 km. (For some reason, the targeting computers can only do 4km though...)

As for heavier bombers - the Ursa costs as much as a small moon (FS Reference bible). Every Helios it carries is prohibitively expensive to produce. if you want it to be faster than the Ursa AND better defended, it's probably going to be illogically expensive.

The Colossus had adequate heatsinks for its designed purpose: hunting down destroyers and superdestroyers. It takes six Orions attacking it simultaneously to bring it down, and it'll take down a good number of them too. The Colossus was never intended to go against juggernauts: the GTVA never saw a Sathanas before the Second Shivan Incursion.

Stealth on the Pegasus and Ptah relies on its small, slim profile and low power output combined with sensor masking and ECM. Heck, small stealth fighters were just being prototyped (after the Loki failed). Stealth assault fighters would come later, but not in time to help the SSI.

All in all, these would be some good post-Capella ideas, but for the time of the Second Shivan Incursion, I doubt any of these would be able to be implemented, aside from oribtal defense cannons...which are just upscaled sentry guns.

It's nice and all to go 'Oh, we'll use Weapon X. It's Very Effective', but you need to take into account canon situations and limitations if you want it to be believeable.

[Pred the Penguin]

A flying gun sound very impractical. Generalization was the much more better way to go during pre-2nd Shivan Incursion periods. Generalized ships are easier to mass produce and can fill a variety of mission roles, ideal when you're lacking specialized ships. Sure some of the stuff you guys are suggesting might be useful against Shivans, but there was no need and when the Shivans came again, it was probably a little too late.

I don't see how an prohibitively expensive bomber would be any better than a frigate or corvette.

We did see land bombardments and also... star bombardments. (?) o_o

[Commander Zane]

Technically the Lilith is a flying gun.

[Dilmah G]

Technically the Lilith is a flying gun.

So is the Fenris/Leviathan, the beam charge glow against those ships looks bloody ridiculous. Like watching someone fire a Desert Eagle chambered in .44 next to someone firing a Beretta M9 (9x19mm, piss all against a .44).

[Commander Zane]

Those two aren't so much flying guns as the Lilith is however when you compare the damage output, which was what I mostly meant when I said "flying gun."

[Lucika]

It is SOOOO sad that I'm one of the rarity who actually posts possible ideas - and these are those waht're ignored.
(mentioning 1st and 2nd page)

Yeah, probably useless. but I guess still better than, for instance, the Kayser-firing Orions.

[Dilmah G]

It is SOOOO sad that I'm one of the rarity who actually posts possible ideas - and these are those waht're ignored.
(mentioning 1st and 2nd page)

Yeah, probably useless. but I guess still better than, for instance, the Kayser-firing Orions.

I wonder why the hell the Security Council didn't do something about the laser turrets onboard Capships.

[Snail]

From an in-universe perspective, I just think it's impossible to do something, or impossible to do on a large scale.

[Sololop]

Doesn't the Aten have a Subach HL-7? (Or some other Vasudan cruiser, not good with Vasudan stuff.) If a fighter can change its primaries prior to launch relatively easily, and cruisers can mount primarys, I don't see why ships can't have Kaysers or Morning Stars.