[Marcov]

Look. So now everybody's against me. Lol.

So, what exactly are you trying to tell me? To stop?

Personally I think the Shivans can make a great stand against the Flood. They've got all the resources they can muster to fight them back. That is all I was trying to say from day one.

Also, General Battuta, you had said from the beginning the Shivans can "raep anything, Flood included". Now you're saying the Flood can own the Shivans? Why is this so?

For now I think I'll have to dismiss this. First of all the Flood isn't supposed to be included. Second, all of you have been calling me immature, but for the sole purpose of trying to say that the Flood would win over the Shivans. Ever since I said that the Shivans could defeat the Flood, you WERE rendering me as pointless, immature, and "young", yet all I can see in you is that the Flood would win in this debate.

What exactly are your motives? If you WERE attempting to make a good debate, you'd also address the strengths of the Shivans. All you were doing was disproving me, saying the Flood would win, etc. and calling me the above.

And now you seem to be ganging up and playing around with me. For what reason? To discourage me from continuing? You can criticize me, or even insult me for all I care. I was trying to make a point yet you were already discouraging me from day one....

...or, is it, again, choice of words? 

[Scotty]

And now you seem to be ganging up and playing around with me. For what reason?

Because your attempts at argument are based on flawed and conjectural data and sources which you have refused to try to fix.

[General Battuta]

Oh my god. Do you even read threads?

You say this:

Ever since I said that the Shivans could defeat the Flood, you WERE rendering me as pointless, immature, and "young", yet all I can see in you is that the Flood would win in this debate

Jesus ****ing Christ I've quoted this at you FOUR TIMES NOW

If I'm a Halo fanboi explain to me why I've said this to you

three times

The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.

I mean seriously, even in my last big post:

There is no point in arguing about whether the Flood or the Shivans will win in a fight. That has never been the question here. We don't know how many vessels the Shivans have, how big their biggest ships are, or how much territory they control. We don't know any of that about the Flood either. They're an immovable object and an irresistible force, respectively.

The assertion is that the Flood can definitely give the Shivans a run for their money. Specifically, that they could infect Shivans, turning their knowledge and technology over to the Flood. Furthermore, the Flood was never defeated, something the Shivans can't say. They have literally never been stopped - only slowed down, and that was accomplished only by wiping out every sentient life form in the galaxy by the use of weapons that dwarf the Capella supernova, and even that could not kill them.

They're in the same ballpark of power. We can't say who would overwhelm the other; we just know that they're both very powerful.

No wonder everybody's against you, you don't even read.

I mean, come on. Explain to me why you'd keep ****ting out posts like this:

but for the sole purpose of trying to say that the Flood would win over the Shivans.

when I've explained the above concepts in two different ways on at least four different occasions by this point in the thread.

Read this post.

[Dilmah G]

MARCOV FOR ****S SAKE. STOP.

Perhaps you could both agree to disagree, for the sake of rational argument?

[Marcov]

@General Battuta:

Excellent. You, assertingly state that both are extremely powerful races, yet you make huge paragraphs about how the Flood would overwhelm the Shivans.

Isn't that quite confusing?

EDIT: Alright, in fact you should've quoted yourself right at the start. Do I have to scan this whole thread before posting?

[Scotty]

No, it isn't.  Because he provides canonical evidence on either side to back up any point he makes.

[General Battuta]

@General Battuta:

Excellent. You, assertingly state that both are extremely powerful races, yet you make huge paragraphs about how the Flood would overwhelm the Shivans.

Isn't that quite confusing?

EDIT: Alright, in fact you should've quoted yourself right at the start. Do I have to scan this whole thread before posting?

Seriously, marcov.

Here's the post that I've been spending this whole time addressing.

I've now disproven everything in it. Which was the point the whole time.

You were the one who careened off into left-field ALL SHIVANS VERSUS ALL FLOOD territory.

You've totally lost track of what this discussion was about.

[Aardwolf]

Marcov, they're not against you, they're just frustrated because you're still arguing about which would win, when that's not what other people (mostly Battuta) have been talking about.

Edit:
@Battuta: well orginally it was about "HALO vs FreeSpace". But that's a stupid topic.

Also (edit #2):

Do I have to scan this whole thread before posting?

As a a rule of thumb, yes

[General Battuta]

Let me trace your logic.

Here you claim that it's impossible to board Shivan ships.

Here you claim it's impossible to board Shivan ships bigger than transports, giving up on the previous point.

Here you try to change the discussion to 'can the Flood infect the entire Sathanas' fleet, which is unrelated to anything anyone has claimed (although the answer is apparently 'yes, easily'). By this point you've given you up your earlier two points.

Here you start demanding that everyone 'pick a side' like it's a game of tag.

I don't give a flying **** about sides. I'm not on anybody's 'side'. I am interested in making you behave like a sensible adult and actually learn something about both sides of a topic you're debating. Because right in those posts you admitted you didn't know much if anything about Halo and you were too lazy to look anything up.

By this point your posts have nothing to do with the original question, which was: can the Flood do any damage to the Shivans.

The Flood can infect cyborgs like the Shivans. They can board vessels with superior drives and weapons to the Shivans, in superior numbers. So yes, it seems likely.

I don't give a **** what this means about 'which universe would win in a fight'. Nor do I care whether  the mysterious Shivan species could wipe out the equally mysterious Flood species or vice versa. Right now, with the canonical information, I'd put my money on the Flood, since the species they have defeated are more powerful than what we know of the Shivans, but there's just so much we don't know about either side. The Shivans could have all sorts of tricks up their sleeve.

You have this problem where you think that 'bigger' means 'better story'. FreeSpace is about small numbers of ships fighting over small amounts of space, and it's better for it.

Maybe just for Marcov I'll start a Xeelee vs. Shivans thread. 

[Marcov]

@General Battuta:

My post? I was trying to say that a half-cybernetic being would be, probably, immune to disease. You've disproven it. Fine. I accept it. Point is, the post was rather outdated. You're arguing about a post that's already been disproven.

@Aardawolf:

Battuta was coupling his posts with two different things. First, he puts a whole paragraph that says that the Shivans have no chance of winning against the Flood. Second, he puts another paragraph saying that "this is not about who would win". That's the point, which is quite confusing.

@Battuta's 2nd post

Firstly, I was simply stating a fact that the Shivans do NOT favor boarding parties, so they would just beam it away. Secondly, since you've apparently using a lowly TRANSPORT as an example, I tried to backup my statement. Third, thus begins my argument about how the Shivans would make a good stand against the Flood. Fourth, I was trying to make sure if you actually though that Halo would win. I was making sure of that. Plus, I knew it would get to this; you stating that this discussion is stupid and retarded, while trying to prove that the Flood would win.

Apparently that's what you keep on doing on crossover debates. You ARE usually, if not always, on the side against FS, yet in the end you always say that this "discussion is ridicoulos."

Maybe just for Marcov I'll start a Xeelee vs. Shivans thread. 

Sorry, the Xeelee are apparently on a different type of universe. Think you'll have me screaming out loud that "Shivans will pwn them! Yeah! They're the BEST RACE IN THE UNIVERSE! GO SHIVANS!!!". Lol, no.

Also, for guys like Aardawolf, I'm not a hot-headed anti-social person you think I am. Wait a while and I might stop. Currently I'm just pointing out the fact that GB states that the Flood can win, yet says it doesn't matter who wins. That is my point.

Funny, cause here we were, debating, yet GB swoops in and starts attacking me, claiming that I have a disorganized form of debate and that I should concede. Then, you all team up, frustrated about me. Thus begins this "argument".

[General Battuta]

You ARE usually, if not always, on the side against FS, yet in the end you always say that this "discussion is ridicoulos."

Jesus ****ing Christ.

Six times now. SIX TIMES.

I don't give a **** what this means about 'which universe would win in a fight'. Nor do I care whether  the mysterious Shivan species could wipe out the equally mysterious Flood species or vice versa. Right now, with the canonical information, I'd put my money on the Flood, since the species they have defeated are more powerful than what we know of the Shivans, but there's just so much we don't know about either side. The Shivans could have all sorts of tricks up their sleeve. There's no way to tell who would win.

I don't give a **** about win or lose. 'Win' and 'lose' are for infants and the insecure.

READ MY POSTS

Why are you even in this thread? You don't know anything about Halo. Why does this thread matter to you? Does it somehow make you like FreeSpace less if something else could 'beat it in a fight'?

[Marcov]

Yes, I've read that post. I READ it, even before you started this comment.

So, what exactly are you trying to prove? That you think the Flood would win, however, we're not sure of that.

Why am I in this thread? Because I think the Shivans are worthy to do a decent battle against the Haloverse. That's why. Of course, that's why.

[General Battuta]

Also, for guys like Aardawolf, I'm not a hot-headed anti-social person you think I am. Wait a while and I might stop. Currently I'm just pointing out the fact that GB states that the Flood can win, yet says it doesn't matter who wins. That is my point.

The Flood can win, the Shivans can win, I don't give a flying ****.

In fact, this is a fascinating example of a really well-known psychological phenomenon.

There's something called the 'fundamental attribution error', or alternatively, the 'dispositional bias'.

Basically, it's a tendency to attribute someone's behavior to their fundamental disposition, rather than to the situation. It's sort of a mental default that requires conscious effort to overcome, which makes it particularly unlikely when you're upset or scared.

A good example is what happens when a stranger's rude towards you. Your default assumption is likely to be 'man, this person is a jerk', not 'I bet she's having a terrible day'.

In this case, marcov, faced with an argument from something he didn't like or understand (Halo), threatening something he did like and understand (FreeSpace), fell right into the dispositional trap. He assumed that the people arguing against him were irrational, one-sided, and conceited - fanboys. He ignored the situational explanation, which was that we were on both sides, that we weren't making the point he thought we were, and that we had carefully analyzed the situation and produced a rational position.

Another prediction of the fundamental attribution error is that people will tend not to reverse their judgments even when shown disconfirming evidence. So we'll see if Marcov obeys that prediction too.  

Yes, I've read that post. I READ it, even before you started this comment.

So, what exactly are you trying to prove? That you think the Flood would win, however, we're not sure of that.

Are you actually this stupid?

Seventh time, folks. SEVENTH TIME.

I don't give a **** what this means about 'which universe would win in a fight'. Nor do I care whether  the mysterious Shivan species could wipe out the equally mysterious Flood species or vice versa. Right now, with the canonical information, I'd put my money on the Flood, since the species they have defeated are more powerful than what we know of the Shivans, but there's just so much we don't know about either side. The Shivans could have all sorts of tricks up their sleeve. There's no way to tell who would win.

I'm gonna make that last sentence real big for you.

There's no way to tell who would win.

At the moment I think the evidence points towards the Flood. I don't think there's any way the Shivans can beat superior numbers, superior technology, the ability to instantly obtain Shivan knowledge and technology via infection, and the ability to teleport Flood ships directly inside Shivan ships via precision Slipspace jumps.

But anything could change because we don't know enough about the Shivans or the Flood.

[Marcov]

For the record, yes, you are quite right about the "
Another prediction of the fundamental attribution error is that people will tend not to reverse their judgments even when shown disconfirming evidence. So we'll see if Marcov obeys that prediction too. " part.

There's no way to tell who would win. Of course you'd normally say that. However, why are you adding to your posts how the Flood would win? Please answer my request: how exactly can the Shivans win, with non-canon theories aside? Explain that. EXPLAIN THAT.

OK, seems that I'm starting to understand your point: "Based on canon, I think the debate would favor the Flood more, however, there are theories stating that the Shivans can actually win".

So, in other words, you're on the Halo side.

[General Battuta]

No, I'm not on any side. You're committing the fallacy of the excluded middle.

These are my positions:

Given current hard canonical figures, the Flood annihilate the Shivans.

Current hard canonical figures do not tell the full story.

Given the many possible scenarios for the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.

Here are a few more positions I've picked up:

Your love for FreeSpace seems to be based on its ability to beat up other universes. You're not much of a FreeSpace fan, if that's the case. You would be an even worse BSG fan. BSG is one of my favorite canonical universes, and every other SF universe in existence would blow the **** out of it.

You are genuinely, shockingly terrible at putting together a logically cohesive argument. You don't know anything about Halo. Why are you even talking about it? You don't know what a Gravemind is, you have no idea about the full capabilities of the Flood.

If you wonder why I keep trying to tell you about how dangerous the Flood is it's because you don't know **** about it. I don't need to tell you about the Shivans because you know them. But if you're going to make a crossover argument, you have to understand both sides.

This is why crossover arguments are stupid: because the people who engage in them are stupid. You are acting stupid. You might not be stupid, but you're acting that way (situation vs. disposition!)

Why do you want to put people 'on sides'? I would take any other SF universe's side against BSG, but I think BSG is a far more compelling, interesting setting than most of those other universes.

[Marcov]

Your love for FreeSpace seems to be based on its ability to beat up other universes. You're not much of a FreeSpace fan, if that's the case. You would be an even worse BSG fan. BSG is one of my favorite canonical universes, and every other SF universe in existence would blow the **** out of it.

No. I simply think that the Shivans would annihilate the Flood. Period.
With non-canon theories aside, yes, the Shivans would still be able to beat the Flood. Perhaps they could lure them to one system, and just in time to trigger a supernova. I already said this, didn't I?

No, I'm not on any side. You're committing the fallacy of the excluded middle.

These are my positions:

Given current hard canonical figures, the Flood annihilate the Shivans.

Current hard canonical figures do not tell the full story.

Given the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.

Basically, with non-canon theories aside, you think Halo wins. And, with non-canon theories included, yes, it's possible that the Shivans can beath the Flood. Is that what you're saying?

[General Battuta]

No.

[Marcov]

No.

As your comment says:

Given the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.

Actually, my take would be that this would be incorrect. You CAN sort out who would actually win, based on non-canon theories.

[General Battuta]

You can't 'base anything on non-canon theories'. That's retarded. That's basing things on making **** up.

Look, frankly, my real purpose in this thread has very little to do with Halo or FreeSpace and a lot to do with getting you to improve the rigor of your arguments.

[Marcov]

You can't 'base anything on non-canon theories'. That's retarded. That's basing things on making **** up.

So all the Shivan theories are all nonsense?

Look, frankly, my real purpose in this thread has very little to do with Halo or FreeSpace and a lot to do with figuring out how stupid you're going to act.

Frankly I think I've got to be getting close to the bottom of the barrel.

In other words, you joined this thread in a hope to point out that we're all stupid, senseless debaters?