[Mito [PL]]

So I didn't actually use Knossos yet but I'm convinced to use it as soon as I get back to playing Freespace. But I'll have a few words about it anyway.

@Mjn: Regarding the manual MVPs updates being done manually outsie of Knossos - are you, by any chance, keeping changelogs of MediaVPs? Because I think an experienced manual user of Freespace should be able to make out which archives have been updated when provided with a changelog. Or maybe Nebula is keeping one?

@mvmiller12: I think the safety of Nebula is confirmed by how nobody is asking questions like "I want to play that mod but my AV software is giving me a warning and I'm worried for my safety". Which I'm sure would be mentioned somewhere if there was malicious software in mod repositories. Basically any mod update that gets downloaded by dozens of users is also scanned by antivirus software on their PCs, so the reports of something fishy should be numerous and quite fast to arrive.
But I suppose a scan of the whole repo once in a while wouldn't hurt, right?

I also wonder if something like torrent-like download functionality would be an option - so instead of everyone downloading a mod from Nebula, the download would be also assisted by other people with Knossos who have the mod downloaded (and of course not modified in any way by the user - checksums). Of course such people would need to allow for such upload action (probably a checkbox).
Maybe Freespace isn't popular enough right now (hopes and dreams to come true...) to be clogging up Nebula with traffic when something new comes up, but it could help people with download speeds when there's a fellow Freespace player somewhere in their local or metropolitan network. Or maybe even introduce a feature allowing to fully download the files from other Knossos installment in the same LAN?
Plus, there's this thing about decentralisation.

[ngld]

Implementing torrents in Knossos is planned (has been for years at this point) but isn't high priority right now. Stuff like tagging and filtering, bug fixes and a bunch of other stuff (like changelogs) are more important right now. The plan is to use an established torrent client (libtorrent) which has python bindings thus making it easy to integrate in Knossos. However, that part will be deactivated until the user explicitely enables torrents since some ISPs seem to hate torrents.
As a precaution, I've toyed with the idea of running the tracker on Nebula using a whitelist so it only tracks the torrents generated by Nebula itself. Traffic between the torrent clients will most likely be TLS encrypted to make it harder to detect and more secure. If everything goes according to plan, you'll be able to download a .torrent file (or use a magnet link) from Nebula together with a modern torrent client to seed or download mods.
All of that is just plans and speculation at this point since it'll take a while to actually implement all of that. Given that not everyone will be able to use it and the only benefit is faster and maybe more reliable downloads, improving Knossos' functionality seems more important right now.
In the short term, I want to add a new setting which allows users to select the server that's fastest for them. Since the download speeds vary greatly depending on where you live or which ISP you're using, that should help people get consistently good speeds. Currently, Knossos just picks one server at random which is the main reason why the download speeds seem very inconsistent.

[Mito [PL]]

Of course it's not the priority now since there aren't that many people around. But at some point, when Freespace isn't only for these select few like us, maybe...

[Spoon]

Should knossos ever get torrents, I'll do my best to seed as much as I can.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Freespace modding in general, seems to me, to be fairly decentralized. And I know for a fact, I've had to do no end of tinkering over the years to get various versions of FSOpen to play nice with the multiple, multiple versions of different mods out there that use *that* asset rather than *this* asset and work on *this* build rather than *that* build.

Would I like to see a more simplified FS2 Open? One easier for newcomers? Sure, but I'm not sure at this time how nice Knososs plays with different computers, settings, and mods.

Long story short, even though I still ask dumb questions since I'm an amateur modder, I *finally* have gotten my various builds and mods to play nice with each other, and its frustrating to hear that's not going to be supported anymore.

[mjn.mixael]

What's ironic is that knossos literally does all that work for you and it's not good enough because you're unsure. Have you actually tried it? Have you actually installed knossos and installed several mods and TCs?

[ngld]

[...] and its frustrating to hear that's not going to be supported anymore.

Um... who said that? Last time I checked, wxLauncher still worked. All mods available on Nebula can easily be downloaded with a browser. You just have to write the mod.ini file yourself. Though that really shouldn't be too hard for people who've been here long enough.

Sure, but I'm not sure at this time how nice Knososs plays with different computers, settings, and mods.

I mean... Knossos detects which CPU you have an picks the appropriate FSO builds. It also supports three different OS and knows which version of the MediaVPs (or whatever other dependency) a mod needs (as long as the uploader did everything correctly). If you find anything that doesn't work, let me know and I'll see if I can fix it.

[AV8R]

I plan on getting on the Knossos bandwagon and wanted to clarify what I needed to do to get it installed and FSO and mods installed. It seems, by reading most of this post, that I should:

1) Back up my current FreeSpace folder
2) Completely delete all files in the FreeSpace folder
3) Reinstall FreeSpace 2 (GoG)
4) Install Knossos
5) Download FSO 3.8 through Knossos
6) Download MediaVPs 3.8 through Knossos
7) Download FSPort through Knossos
8) Et cetera with other mods


Or how about this way (This method would negate having to reinstall FS2 (GoG):

1) Delete all of my current mod folders (except the original FS2 data folder)
2) Delete all of the old launcher and FSO files from the main folder (\Games\FreeSpace)
3) Install Knossos
4) Proceed with downloads as above

Which would be the better/safer way to proceed?

[Mongoose]

Neither; you don't have to touch your current folder at all.  By default Knossos uses a different folder than the default retail path, so it can happily coexist alongside an existing install. It's also able to copy over the retail VPs from your current folder.  After you install via Knossos, you can delete previous mod installs at your leisure if you want to free up some hard drive space.

[AV8R]

What's the new default folder?

[ngld]

Knossos asks you which folder to use the first time you start it. The default value is C:\Games\FreespaceOpen though you're free to choose any folder outside of C:\Program Files.

[manwiththemachinegun]

What's ironic is that knossos literally does all that work for you and it's not good enough because you're unsure. Have you actually tried it? Have you actually installed knossos and installed several mods and TCs?

Yes, but there are issues. It doesn't have custom lighting presets that are easy to implement. It didn't seem to import my pilots from my old install. It's difficult to see where Knossos is pulling its custom files from.

You'll just have to take it from others that while Knossos is probably genius from a designer stand point, consumers (i.e., me) don't always jump at the first thing that's new unless there are truly compelling reasons to do so. I don't feel like upgrading to Windows 10 for example until I'm forced to, because I *have* everything that I need all set up and ready to go. I no longer have the time to spend 3 hours troubleshooting and uploading crash logs when something goes wrong. And while Knossos has many fan campaigns available, it doesn't have them all. And I would have no idea how to set them up with this new system. 

[ngld]

FSO 3.8.0 (and all future releases) uses a new settings directory in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. Your pilot files will be stored there as well. You can copy your old files into the new folder if you want to.
Knossos doesn't have lighting presets since none of the existing ones work with the new renderer. As far as I'm aware, there is only one preset so far for the new renderer.
Which custom files are you talking about? The only new file type are the mod.json files which are generated during the installation.

because I *have* everything that I need all set up and ready to go.

Then why are you complaining about Knossos? Noone's forcing you to use it.

I no longer have the time to spend 3 hours troubleshooting and uploading crash logs when something goes wrong.

That's exactly why Knossos is designed the way it is. The whole installation process is standardized and automated which reduces the possibility of stuff going wrong. Besides, Knossos uploads its own error logs unless you turn it off but I guess that's not relevant here.

And while Knossos has many fan campaigns available, it doesn't have them all. And I would have no idea how to set them up with this new system. 

Sure but we have to start somewhere. Knossos already has a lot of mods/campaigns available and we have a guide if you want to add a new mod (and optionally upload it).


I'm really unsure what you're complaining about... either you're fine with the way things are in which case not much has changed or you want an easier way to install mods in which case Knossos is IMO the best solution we have. It's not perfect but then again it's something that was purely developed in the spare time of everyone involved.


Something that's been irritating me is that recently people have started to complain about Knossos (or certain parts of it) instead of asking if it could be changed. I'm open to different opinions and constructive criticism. Knossos would've never become what it is today without the great feedback, help and support that I've received in the past (holy crap, has it already been 4 years?! Time flies...).
Anyway, I value any constructive feedback I can get. It might take a while to incorporate the feedback (my spare time is obviously limited) but I try to prioritize important changes and simple fixes.

TL;DR: Knossos is a nice tool that seems to help a lot of people but also seems to upset a lot of (other) people although it shouldn't really affect you if you don't use it.

[AV8R]

Knossos asks you which folder to use the first time you start it. The default value is C:\Games\FreespaceOpen though you're free to choose any folder outside of C:\Program Files.

FSO 3.8.0 (and all future releases) uses a new settings directory in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. Your pilot files will be stored there as well.

So what I'm reading is the Knossos launcher, FSO settings and pilots will reside in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. The Knossos launcher will then download and install FSO and mods under C:\Games\FreespaceOpen (or the folder of your choice), correct?

But I'll still have to install the original Freespace 2 into the FSO install folder, before or after Knossos downloads and installs FSO so it will run properly.

[PIe]

So what I'm reading is Knossos itself installs into %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen

That is incorrect.  You choose where the Knossos app itself is installed, just like any other program (Firefox, Notepad++, etc.).
The %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpenfolder contains files used by FSO, such as pilot and campaign savefiles, and is not specific to Knossos.  Other compatible launchers like wxLauncher will use this directory as well.

The Knossos launcher will then download and install FSO and mods under C:\Games\FreespaceOpen (or the folder of your choice), correct?

Correct.

But you still have to install the original Freespace 2 into Knossos' FSO install folder, before or after downloading and installing FSO and mods, so FSO will run properly, correct?

Do not try to install retail FS2 into the Knossos data folder.  When first setting up Knossos, you can either give it the path to your current FS installation or the path to the GoG installer, and Knossos will then copy over the necessary files to C:\Games\FreespaceOpen or whatever folder you chose.  Knossos will never write to your existing installation.

[AV8R]

Ok, thanks for the clarification, PIe. Sorry, didn't want to seem dense, I just wanted to understand the new directory/file structure for Knossos and where Knossos and FSO will store settings, pilots, executables and mods.

One final question: if the pilot files will be stored under %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen, will they be in the actual \FreespaceOpen folder or a subfolder called "\Pilots" or something similar? I'd like to transfer my existing pilot files into the proper settings folder, if possible.

[PIe]

%appdata%\HardLightProductions\FreeSpaceOpen\data\players

[snake60]

Do not try to install retail FS2 into the Knossos data folder.  When first setting up Knossos, you can either give it the path to your current FS installation or the path to the GoG installer, and Knossos will then copy over the necessary files to C:\Games\FreespaceOpen or whatever folder you chose.  Knossos will never write to your existing installation.

Hi,

I've been out of the loop for a long time, so just a quick question about Knossos, if I may.
Is it safe to remove/delete the original FS installation folder (or deinstalling FS altogether) after Knossos has done its job, or do we need to keep this folder for certain reasons ?
Just asking from a disk's free space (hahaha) point of view ^^

[Mongoose]

Once you get Knossos up and running and it copies over your retail FS2 VPs, you can go ahead and delete any redundant mods in the original FS2 folder to free up some space.  If you've only used FSO builds older than 3.8.0, you'll want to copy your pilot and campaign files to the new save location in your %APPDATA%/Hard Light Productions/... folder.

[manwiththemachinegun]

So what is the point of having two installs of Freespace 2 on your system then? Why is it necessary for Knossos to double your install?