Author Topic: Mass Effect: Andromeda  (Read 60966 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792

Just to say that I'm really enjoying this read, currently at the middle of ME2 analysis and I'm yet to find any word that I disagree one inch of. Many times I just find myself skipping entire paragraphs because I know (and agree with) exactly what he is saying.

I was merely surprised by the idea that many people actually thought of Ashley as a "racist" douchebag. I thought of that as some kind of cute nickname, like "the racist team mate (that totally isn't, I'm just teasing her)", but apparently a lot of people really make that judgement. That to me was surprising in a negative way.

I'm sad we didn't get Plan B From Outer Space.  Not that I disliked ME2, it had a lot of good character moments, spectacle and the game play was less of a grind but the loss of scope was pretty sad. 
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792

Just to say that I'm really enjoying this read, currently at the middle of ME2 analysis and I'm yet to find any word that I disagree one inch of. Many times I just find myself skipping entire paragraphs because I know (and agree with) exactly what he is saying.

I was merely surprised by the idea that many people actually thought of Ashley as a "racist" douchebag. I thought of that as some kind of cute nickname, like "the racist team mate (that totally isn't, I'm just teasing her)", but apparently a lot of people really make that judgement. That to me was surprising in a negative way.

Yeah I am also not quite sure why people pick up on her character like that. If anyone's the space racist in ME it's Mordin, condemning an entire civilization to sterility simply because he did not agree with their culture and yet everybody loved him.

I mean I love him but he still openly defends pre-emptive biological warfare based on a projection.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 02:09:43 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Yeah, Mordin decided that an alien culture was passé and single-handedly decided to inflict untold horrors to them. Yeah, that's how it went.

 
Yeah, Mordin decided that an alien culture was passé and single-handedly decided to inflict untold horrors to them. Yeah, that's how it went.

No, what actually happened was that a small cabal of scientist decided the fate of an entire species. Again. Based on maths and on an event that happened 2000 years ago, not accounting for the changes that the genophage might have brought. It's rather prejudicial.

I mean, sure there's a lot of nuance there, I am merely pointing out that a large portion of the fanbase considers Ashley to be "space racist" (specieist?) straight after ME1 whilst not acknowledging the awful moral flaws in Mordin's character at the time of ME2.

 

Offline Scotty

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The difference is that Ashley is outright prejudiced against several alien species.

Mordin evaluated the ends to justify the means, and made a judgment call.  The fact that it involved the fate of an entire species is ultimately secondary.

 
The difference is that Ashley is outright prejudiced against several alien species.

I think the articles Battuta linked already made a very strong case that no: Not really. Ashley is arguing from the point of realpolitik: That other species do not consider humanity to be as important as their own and that you can't trust them not to screw you over to meet their own ends. And in-universe, she's right! The Council factions uplifted the Krogan and then smacked them down, and then kept kicking them whilst they were down. Mordin makes a compelling the end justify the means case, but the truth is he doesn't really know what the ends are: He only projected them based on their models. If Ashley is prejudicial, they both are. If Mordin is not prejudicial, then neither is Ashley.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 03:52:35 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline StarSlayer

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So I never actually played ME3...

and Boy Howdy does that article reinforce it being a good decision.  I mean, I knew it was bad so I skipped but Wow :blah:

Also the article lays out a solid case for why Ash isn't a racist.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 07:18:46 pm by StarSlayer »
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Offline Firesteel

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The way Shamus describes ME3 is pretty apt if you're one of those people who really enjoyed the first game (like me). Basically ME2 isn't a sequel and ME3 has to play catch up in addition to having to acknowledge the insane bull**** of ME2. ME3 was a game doomed the minute ME2 decided to kill Shepard and railroad you into working with Cerberus.

I've maintained for a while now that even though Mass Effect was supposedly conceived of as a trilogy nothing about it feels that way outside of it being three numbered titles. Dead Space is a far more coherent trilogy and one of the leads admitted that they didn't plan anything past the first game (which is obvious with the way the markers' purpose is changed over the course of all 3 titles). And yes, I am completely aware of how bad Dead Space 3 is, it's just less apocalyptically bad at destroying all narrative plot threads than ME3 is.
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Offline Luis Dias

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We could try to guesstimate the story with the little snippets of lore and narrative that we got so far. It's fun. I enjoyed trying to do the same with ME3 (I got some things right) and BP, and it's a good exercise in itself to bring those thoughts into words so we can see how wrong I (we?) were led astray after the fact.

There are some difficulties. Before ME3, I couldn't wrap my head around why were we fighting so many cerberus troops, but I guesstimated that it would have do be about a race between Shepard and TIM towards the Big Solution Button that would solve everything. The problem though, is that it's quite difficult to piece the things together in order for them to make sense, when it's quite likely those same pieces don't make any sense in the final product to begin with, thus distorting any guessing we could make.

Anyways, I like this kind of ****, so indulge me! I might spend several posts to do a sufficiently thorough analysis, and you can always add to it (or subtract).

1. Worldbuilding. I've recently read that this is kinda important for Mass Effect ;). What the **** is happening in Andromeda? Many things are possible. Here are some questions that have always itched me ever since the first reveal.

a) What is the Fermi Paradox answer to Andromeda? The game should not avoid this question. In Mass Effect 1, the game totally ignored it and pretended that all species were relatively the same with somewhat the same kind of technological evolution, somewhat ignoring the deep time questions (yes, Protheans, etc.), and we went along for the ride (because Star Trek!) until lo and behold, there was actually a damned good reason why no one around was incredibly more advanced than the others. It just so happened that the Milky Way was rebooted every 50.000 years.

Now what the **** is going on in Andromeda? If there are no Reapers, shouldn't there be a species or two in there that would just dwarf anything you could comprehend? Wouldn't the "Problem" that the Catalyst tried to solve in the Milky Way exist in the same way in here?

I'm going to assume that the writers didn't merely handwave the problem away, which is probably the wrong assumption (90% chance, I'd say) and still try to match with what we see in the trailers and all the rest of the information we got.

What do we see?

We see some relatively advanced Andromedean species (Khet, Angara), we know there are some pre-spacefaring species out there. We also see the Remnant, ruins of an otherwise dead really advanced species (which apparently has a lot of Observers and Destroyers and whatevers still quite active). We also see a lot of really big thresher maw like metallic monsters and various other weird creatures.

One possibility is that the events that the Catalyst was built to prevent already happened in Andromeda, perhaps multiple times. It's clear that the whole Galaxy hasn't yet been turned into Computronium, but a lot of "wiping outs" could have happened. In this scenario, the "Remnant" could be the last generation of such a civilization ran amok which self-destructed with a bad singularity, and the local cluster is basically recovering from this holocaust, slowly, having to deal with the "remnants" of this civilization, AIs that have some programming left. These AIs programmings couldn't be so aggressive to wipe out everything new that would show up, but they could be sufficient aggressive or dangerous in some environmental level to pose a threat to organics.

In this scenario, the organics we encounter have to deal with the Remnants as environmental hazards pretty much like we do, and they are all natural to Andromeda.

In the same scenario, it's also possible that some of the organics we find are not from Andromeda at all, and rather, much like we are, come from another galaxy (!). The eons do not match though. Neither the Keth nor the Angara strike me as a civilization that is at least 50k years old (in which case they could simply be races that were under the Prothean Empire that somehow managed to escape the culling of their cycle), their technology doesn't strike me as that good.

Another possiblity is that, much like the Reapers, the Remnants' own technology that is open to salvage is a sort of meta-strategy by superior intelligences in order to sway any new organics into their own technological path. Too many "rhymes" here? Sure. We can twist this. Imagine that instead of all this pointing towards a culling, the strategy is a Contact scenario, wherein all organics that can figure out how to fight self-defense remnant mechanisms and master the technology hidden in the vaults can be "lifted" towards some transcendental existence, or say, merely join the galactic super party of the up and ups. This also solves the Fermi Paradox in Andromeda (instead of being culled, they simply disappear from the map and join some kind of Matrioshka Brain hidden in the center of the galaxy, etc.).



b) Milky Way species are the ****ing initial mystery here. Supposedly, they are already here for quite some time now before you actually wake up from your slumber. This means that a lot of colonies have been already established, but we don't exactly know in what conditions, if under some sort of emergency conditions (where everything was failing, and some kind of ThunderDome politics rose from harsh situations), or if under some relative good enough conditions. What are the current politics? Where is the NEXUS stationed? Is it under control or is it abandoned? Is it under construction or is it finished? What are the territories of the several council species? Do they already have several planets colonized?

Some things can be inferred, from gameplay or story telling necessities. First the NEXUS is going to be visitable, probably between the first and the second chapter. After hyping this megastructure for so long, it would be weird for them to simply put it like the ending purpose of the game. It will be much like the Citadel in ME1, therefore it does exist and it does have political power over the council species' several inhabited "golden" worlds.

The human colonies are a mystery so far. Most probably, the PEGASUS was ****ed up and managed to skip several years (while other council species colonized several golden worlds), so the humans are running with a time deficit against other species in colonizing worlds. But some branches start here. It could be that a few humans escaped the accident (I'm thinking Alec Ryder) who tried to bridge the gap between the PEGASUS and the NEXUS' diverging paths, or other pathfinder activities that were important, before the rest of the PEGASUS crew could wake up.

I have thought little about this chapter at all, so I will defer to the discussion.

c) The Khet are really ****ing assholes, but why? Clearly, they want the same thing that we are after, regarding Remnant technology. We are in a race with them (it's the obvious story arc, we'll get there when I develop this further), but I am interested here in asking how are they seeing Humans, Salarians, Turians and Asaris. An aggressive race, faced with a sudden invasion by 4 major species plus some Krogan, would not be in a good mood towards these. How many more are coming? What are these races' purposes? Are they an infection from the Milky Way? Are they here to gather the same thing from the Remnants that we are?

IF the writing is good, there is ample room for nuance in writing these antagonists, since it's quite obvious that all of the council races *could* be regarded as an invasion force, and trying to compete aggressively for the same things they want. OR, they could just go full JJ Abrams and design Archon like a stupid crazy nuStar Trekkian Nero (I have to admit, that trailer where Ryder faces Archon in their Trekkian screen gave me all the wrong vibes).

d) Territory. This is also interesting. We are focused on a single cluster, given we lack Mass Relays to make us jump through diverse points in the galaxy, but there are a lot of stars in a small cluster. However, we see a black hole in the briefings, several times. I'm all for Interstellar-like Black Holes, but does it exist solely for us to marvel at its graphics, or is its existence an important strategic point, like a wormhole or some other interesting territorial aspect of it? No answers.

Given that the whole game takes place in a single small cluster within Andromeda, I have an intuition that at a certain later point in the game, we will be thrown off at some thousands of light years away from it, to retrieve or learn something important, relative to the Remnants. The last reveal, the Remnant final key could be related with some technology that would enable you to travel that far away, analogous to build a Mass Relay of your own, or to find a kind of a Mass Relay, connected with the remainder of the Galaxy, opening up new possibilities in the end, with the protags filled with wonder, imagining the marvels ahead of them to explore (fade to black, credits).

e) Genophage. So apparently, there's a side mission that refers to "a future for the Krogan", captured in gameplay footage. Do the Krogans get the cure in here as well? Everybody hates repetitions, but it's an important question here.

f) Cerberus. Everybody hates them, and probably everybody within Bioware as well, except perhaps Mac ****ing Walters. We've already wondered about Cory Harper and some weird issues with the AI named SAM. The very existence of an AI points to a less legal framework within the Initiative, possibly because they're going for the "New World" anyway, so why bother with stupid Milky Way laws that just impede "human development"?

It's quite easy to see how the human side of the Initiative could have been partially funded or helped by Cerberus, and that SAM could be a spinoff of EVE, from the Luna Base itself. It's also straightforward to see Cora Harper being a TIM relative. IF we are to have this thread in the game, I'd like it not to shadow anything in the main plotline, pretty please, ****ing please? So, a good compromise would be for it to be a Cora Harper Loyalty Mission. She has "issues" to deal with, and we slowly learn it has to do with his crazy uncle, mr TIM and the overall Cerberus intentions, which have some consequences here in Andromeda, but are nothing but a sideshow (given that TIM is way more concerned with the Reapers anwyay).


Ok, that's it for today. Your thoughts?

 

Offline Firesteel

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I'm really hoping they manage to portray the Milky Way species as an invading force. Not only would this be a different experience it would be a nice little mirror to hold up to the Reaper conflict. I don't have a good feeling they'll do this because Mass Effect is too much like Star Wars now and has too much money involved to do something so risky (though I seriously hope I'm wrong). If they even did something as simple as aping the general feeling of the Europeans coming the the Americas that could prove interesting. If the Khet are designed to be more alien than anything else we've seen that would make their (perceived) hostility really easy to swallow since communication would be difficult.

As far as the black holes go, I know they wouldn't use the premise of The Forever War by Joe Haldeman since they aren't going for anything that realistic, but something involving time dilation could open the door for some great stories surrounding the risk and human cost of exploring more than a tiny local cluster. If your end game prediction is right, then the collapsar jump style travel could lead to some wonderful "future shock" or otherwise great drama associated with being "out of time."
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Offline Mikes

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I'm really hoping they manage to portray the Milky Way species as an invading force. Not only would this be a different experience it would be a nice little mirror to hold up to the Reaper conflict. I don't have a good feeling they'll do this because Mass Effect is too much like Star Wars now and has too much money involved to do something so risky (though I seriously hope I'm wrong). If they even did something as simple as aping the general feeling of the Europeans coming the the Americas that could prove interesting. If the Khet are designed to be more alien than anything else we've seen that would make their (perceived) hostility really easy to swallow since communication would be difficult.

As far as the black holes go, I know they wouldn't use the premise of The Forever War by Joe Haldeman since they aren't going for anything that realistic, but something involving time dilation could open the door for some great stories surrounding the risk and human cost of exploring more than a tiny local cluster. If your end game prediction is right, then the collapsar jump style travel could lead to some wonderful "future shock" or otherwise great drama associated with being "out of time."

A Renegade option/path along the lines of "Nice planet you have there, now beat it so we can move in!"? Ah one can dream! ;-)

 

Offline Firesteel

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I might even go so far as to make it the Paragon option since the way they wrote the two was wildly inconsistent and the Paragon option was self righteous a lot of the time. "You're misusing the planet, we'll share it with you if you're nice to us."
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Offline Luis Dias

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There won't be paragon/renegade options anymore ;)

 
Will there still be options for being persuasive in the character build? I like that system in general I just disliked it when it was tied behind acting a certain way.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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So, part two of my attempt at giving some structure at my own brainstormings trying to guess this game. I will dwell on some "details" that are seen in the trailers but never directly mentioned or commented at, merely shown. By piercing them together, it's obvious to me they are far more than just eye candy or random sci fi plot elements in an otherwise "personal" game or whatever.

GRAVITY, SUPERMASSIVE BLACK HOLES AND MASS EFFECT

From the very beggining the games have been about a particular technology that changes how physics-as-we-know-it works, giving typical mass bodies the ability to go faster than light (and other marvels). Now, things like mass and FTL are deeply embedded with how gravity works. If FTL is possible, then all crazy **** should be possible regarding really massive bodies in the universe, like, say, black holes. It should be possible, for instance, to escape a black hole, among other weird things (go back in time, killing your grandparents, destroy the universe with time-loop paradoxes, etc.).

Now, I initially thought the really big massive black hole in the trailers was just eye candy for some random mission, until someone called the zone around it the "Helios Cluster". And then I thought, "what?", there's a big giant spot in the middle of the entire explorable map in our game and it's a ****ing huge black hole? What are the odds of that, and how the **** is that not a giant piece of the world building and plot itself?

I don't know if this is the entirety of the Helios Cluster, but imagine it to be:


"Yeah Luis, but what the hell does that have to do with 'Mass Effect' in the first place?"

Remember all those shots where weird gravity phenomena was happening? The shot where two humans are seeing rocks flow upwards, the shot where the Tempest crew is investigating a vault (or something) wherein strange gravitational anomalies are occurring?


So, yeah, I do think all of these things to be thematically related and intertwined plot-wise regarding the "Really Big Reveal" or the "Big Key to the End Castle" within this game. It is sufficiently connected with the themes of Mass Effect itself, it is sufficiently unconnected with Mass Effect to be something new and explorable that could only be found on Andromeda, and, to go slightly ahead of myself and a future post, it might actually (and finally) give a damned good reason why the Andromeda Initiative exists in the first place, and why it picked such an interesting spot.

I'll come back for part 3 later.

 
Here's the new combat system presentation.



I see that adept and Vanguard fans will love the jetpack because it gives us nice possibilities for biotic attacks. I only hope that game won't force me to use this in combat (as I mentioned before. I hate constant jumping like a damn grasshopper. Especially when i have to aim with a heavy semi- auto weapon :P. Speaking of which. Remnant tech- based weapons look very interesting.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Holy crap I've wanted Vanguard mit Gravity Hammer since ME2.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Looks like destiny happened.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Has anyone heard anything about system requirements yet?  Been googling like crazy.
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Offline The E

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Has anyone heard anything about system requirements yet?  Been googling like crazy.

I would imagine that they're going to be about the same as DAI or Battlefield One.
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