[Hades]

The warning I received made all of my posts require approval by moderation approval before being displayed also causes this functionality with internal, project-specific subforums which is pretty silly and rather counterproductive.

I'd also like to mention that I had to find this out myself, since the message I got telling me I was warned said nothing about this imposed posting moderation, which seems a bit silly to me. It really seemed as if it was too busy being threatening and not busy enough being informative. I can't even talk to the moderator or admin who issued it about it because it gets sent through the forums as opposed of through them.

I'll just reply in the OP here because this post moderation is a dumb punishment that just punishes the moderators for my behavior:

Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy. You had to know when you made that post that it was over the line. And when you step over the line, posting rights are temporarily taken away to incentivise you not to do it again. By its nature, it's meant to be an inconvenience.

This is the system working as it ought to - a feature, not a bug.

I'm not arguing being punished or that I ****posted, what I'm arguing with is how needlessly tedious it makes on people other than myself to post in mod development internal boards (and in general) while trying to help with development of said mods. It's one thing to take away easy public forum access but it's another to disrupt developer communication on a forum for developing. This is the same ****ing issue people had with monkeying years ago that the administration/mods still haven't seemed to learn from, since they're repeating that same mistake again.

And again, a big issue is that I had to find this out myself, as the warning message told me nothing about being punished and I wouldn't know who to talk to about the punishment either. There's a big lack of transparency and that's a big issue.

And I STILL don't know how long this is going to last, that's another thing left out of the warning message, which again, was useless in every way except for telling me what was offensive.

Hades,

You have received a warning for insulting other users and/or staff members in regards to the message:
Re: Warships of the TEI (GTD Titan WIP).

Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.

Regards,
The Hard Light Productions Forums Team.

This is completely opaque. I do not know that I am punished (since warning doesn't mean punishing someone), I don't know how long I am punished for the punishment I don't know I have, and I don't know who gave it out so I don't know who to talk to about it. This is egregious, this is a big part of the issues the community has had with HLP's moderation and administration.

[Black Wolf]

Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy. You had to know when you made that post that it was over the line. And when you step over the line, posting rights are temporarily taken away to incentivise you not to do it again. By its nature, it's meant to be an inconvenience.

This is the system working as it ought to - a feature, not a bug.

[Hades]

I'm not arguing with the punishment or that I ****posted, what I'm arguing with is how needlessly tedious it makes on people other than myself to post in mod development internal boards while trying to help with development of said mods. It's one thing to take away easy public forum access but it's another to disrupt developer communication on a forum for developing.

And again, a big issue is that I had to find this out myself, as the warning message told me nothing about being punished and I wouldn't know who to talk to about the punishment either. There's a big lack of transparency and that's a big issue.

And I STILL don't know how long this is going to last, that's another thing left out of the warning message, which again, was useless in every way except for telling me what was offensive.

EDIT: In fact I'll just post ut.

Hades,

You have received a warning for insulting other users and/or staff members in regards to the message:
Re: Warships of the TEI (GTD Titan WIP).

Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.

Regards,
The Hard Light Productions Forums Team.

[Spoon]

The warning I received made all of my posts require approval by moderation approval before being displayed also causes this functionality with internal, project-specific subforums which is pretty silly and rather counterproductive.

I'd also like to mention that I had to find this out myself, since the message I got telling me I was warned said nothing about this imposed posting moderation, which seems a bit silly to me. It really seemed as if it was too busy being threatening and not busy enough being informative. I can't even talk to the moderator or admin who issued it about it because it gets sent through the forums as opposed of through them.

Same but I too am sexy

[MatthTheGeek]

Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy.

Yes, by noticing this is a modding forum dedicated to ensure the productivity of mods, he is a smart guy. When you're inconveniencing mod progress, you're denying the very purpose of HLP.

Besides, since moderators are the ones who have to approve posts, I don't think the most inconvenienced are the ones you think.

Guess who isn't a smart guy in this thread. Come on, you can do it.

[Spoon]

Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy.

Yes, by noticing this is a modding forum dedicated to ensure the productivity of mods, he is a smart guy. When you're inconveniencing mod progress, you're denying the very purpose of HLP.

Besides, since moderators are the ones who have to approve posts, I don't think the most inconvenienced are the ones you think.

Guess who isn't a smart guy in this thread. Come on, you can do it.

Yeah what Matth said.
But hey, HLP moderation that isn't ****ing with its content creators? Un****ing heard of.

[General Battuta]

Yo we're in crunch on a big release and need quick iteration, gotta get those Hades posts into our beta forum.

Can someone just monkey him, at least that way he can post on internal boards. He wouldn't give a ****.

Alternately, Hades, register a new account and we can add you to beta boards.

[Black Wolf]

I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.

[karajorma]

While we all value you lot attempting to save us inconvenience, moderating posts isn't half as much of a chore as you seem to imagine it is.

I'll monkey Hades though since that appears to be less of an inconvenience to all concerned.

[General Battuta]

I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.

The warning was perfectly deserved and a good use of the warning system, it's just inconvenient that it also applies to project boards. That's why we fixed monkeys to only apply to public boards.

[Hades]

I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.

You could as a moderator, I dunno, PM the user personally instead if you can't set up the warning system to actually give useful messages?

How do you not see issue with how opaque this whole system is? As an end user I had no idea this percentage system was a thing or how it works, and I don't really know how it works still. When action is taken against a user, they should know as much as possible, not have to find out action has been taken through posting/trying to post.

I mean I don't really know why I'm trying, HLP moderation has pretty much been terrible for as long as I've been around and it shows no willingness to change. Feels like I'm yelling into a void, which I mean if the HLP moderation was going for an empty space theme style of moderation bravo I guess.

[Spoon]

Problem is, Black wolf, is that you don't learn from your mistakes. And yet again, you are putting your fingers in your ears and start shouting "LALALA I can't hear you!".
Last time you ****ed up in the WoD forum, you could have avoided all of it by PMing instead. In this case too, this whole thread wouldn't have been a thing if you had PM'd instead. Think about it, you're a smart guy. As Hades already pointed out, the warning system is incredible opaque. Nobody in the thread that this happened in, saw you issue a warning to Hades, nobody outside of a few moderator enabled members can even see that Hades account is set to moderated or watched. And the warning message pm didn't tell Hades anything meaningful.
So in effect you acomplished nothing. The 'public' didn't see you take action and Hades was told nothing.
I don't have to spell out from here how a PM would have been a better idea, right? You're a smart guy after all.

Instead now you have to deal with 'same old group of people' again. Doesn't that get tiresome?

I mean I don't really know why I'm trying, HLP moderation has pretty much been terrible for as long as I've been around and it shows no willingness to change. Feels like I'm yelling into a void, which I mean if the HLP moderation was going for an empty space theme style of moderation bravo I guess.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people.

Yeah, because that's totally OUR fault this comes up all the time. Totally not your absolute incapacity to moderate correctly, no sir.

[Mongoose]

In which various people think that yelling insults at someone will convince them that they made a mistake.

Look, I agree that it would probably be best if at all possible to not apply post approval to private project boards (I don't know how flexible SMF is in that regard).  I'll also acknowledge that we can and should do a better job at communicating the warning system and its consequences, whether that's in the individual warning message or in the floated Guidelines for Forum Conduct thread.  I do feel as though moderator actions shouldn't necessarily be broadcast publicly: as far as I'm concerned it's a matter between the moderator and the poster, and if the latter then chooses to share what happened with anyone else, they're free to do so.

Speaking more personally, though, I almost feel as though BW is right, and that moderation actions temporarily affecting even private board posts could be viewed as a feature, and not an issue to be corrected.  The way we do moderation here basically comes down to Wheaton's Law: don't be a dick.  If you do choose to be a dick in an egregious manner, then you should be subject to the consequences of such, and it shouldn't matter whether you're a decade-long prolific modder, or a total n00b making his first post about that weird web cursor bitmap error.  During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen.  If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.

[Lorric]

During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen.  If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.

This absolutely happens, though personally I've felt it to be more down to cronyism / favouritism. Though I have been told myself being a content creator helps you in this regard by at least one member of the staff. Some people enjoy a certain level of protection. We are not all treated the same.

I wonder if there's anyone here on Hard Light these days outside of the advantaged ones who feels Hard Light moderation has an overall positive effect on this board.

[General Battuta]

In which various people think that yelling insults at someone will convince them that they made a mistake.

Look, I agree that it would probably be best if at all possible to not apply post approval to private project boards (I don't know how flexible SMF is in that regard).  I'll also acknowledge that we can and should do a better job at communicating the warning system and its consequences, whether that's in the individual warning message or in the floated Guidelines for Forum Conduct thread.  I do feel as though moderator actions shouldn't necessarily be broadcast publicly: as far as I'm concerned it's a matter between the moderator and the poster, and if the latter then chooses to share what happened with anyone else, they're free to do so.

Speaking more personally, though, I almost feel as though BW is right, and that moderation actions temporarily affecting even private board posts could be viewed as a feature, and not an issue to be corrected.  The way we do moderation here basically comes down to Wheaton's Law: don't be a dick.  If you do choose to be a dick in an egregious manner, then you should be subject to the consequences of such, and it shouldn't matter whether you're a decade-long prolific modder, or a total n00b making his first post about that weird web cursor bitmap error.  During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen.  If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.

Already we've reached the stage where this goes from small issue to meta-issue where everyone hauls out decade-old grievances!

Make mods, play mods. If people are dicks in a certain capacity, stop them from being dicks in that capacity. Don't stop them from doing useful things (for example, beta testing for a team you're not even on).

[General Battuta]

For example, it's not cool to use homophobic language! If you do that, maybe you deserve a day off from posting in public to think about what you did.

Maybe some project you signed on to test for doesn't deserve a day off your necessary posts, because that project is not in charge of some beta tester's language decisions. This is a board for making mods for FreeSpace.

If you don't contribute positively to some aspect of the board, your ability to contribute there gets turned off. This is why we have political prisoners who can't post in GenDisc and no more Mobius on the wiki and so forth.

[General Battuta]

This whole thread probably should've been handled by PM just like the original grievance, tho. A quick chat with Axem could've fixed it all up.

Now we get to metapost like it's 2009

[Hades]

Unfortunately I had no idea who the moderator or admin was who gave the original punishment out was, so I couldn't just talk to them in PM and from what I know the mods and admins try to not step on each other's toes.

[Spoon]

Already we've reached the stage where this goes from small issue to meta-issue where everyone hauls out decade-old grievances!

Not what I was doing.
Just pointing out how Black Wolf hasn't taken any hints/learned anything from the previous drama. That and this, both could have been better handled with more transparancy and better communication (through PM or otherwise).

Make mods, play mods. If people are dicks in a certain capacity, stop them from being dicks in that capacity. Don't stop them from doing useful things (for example, beta testing for a team you're not even on).

True that tho.