Author Topic: United Earth VS GTVA  (Read 63208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
It's all a matter of point of view. Maybe the GTVA civies think more like this "After 50 years of seperation, we try to embrace them, but the UEF sticks a knife in out back. And now they'll pay for it." Put that on top of all the reasonings that were given, why the GTVA needed to go to war with sol and you might end up with lots of people supporting the invasion.... or not, we won't know untill the release I guess.

Since the GTVA has no scrouples to invade a more or less peacefull society without even trying to negotiate first, I don't see them having problems with making their own propaganda.

 

Offline nuone

  • 25
Damn, I only meant to use Yoda's quote to poke fun at those who like the GTVA. I didn't intend it to be construed into some metaphysical quasi-philosophical view on a darn video game.


 :eek2:

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Honestly, if I were a GTVA citizen, I would be more concerned of my government becoming pansies like the UEF.
I don't think preaching peace will help you survive the Shivans. Even if it does, it's because of some plot device. You can't rely on plot devices.

Indeed.  In the Blue Planet continuity, it seems that humans in Sol have lost their way.  The GTVA must teach them why pacifism is tantamount to suicide. 

Don't get me wrong in any of what I'm saying.  I think that Blue Planet is a great set of campaigns and a great storyline.  I just feel that it would do better without all the Hinduism and Eastern religion mixed into it.
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • Do try it.
Each to his own, I guess. But that for me, is part of the magic of BP. It's its own culture. It IS, the 23rd Century, not the 21st Century in the future, if you catch what I'm saying? I had my face inches away from the screen when I read some of those texts, and sent them to friends, who also praised them. But I agree, in the dangerous world of Freespace, pacifism will not suffice to stop the Shivans, or any other race of Superdestroyers.

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Each to his own, I guess. But that for me, is part of the magic of BP. It's its own culture. It IS, the 23rd Century, not the 21st Century in the future, if you catch what I'm saying? I had my face inches away from the screen when I read some of those texts, and sent them to friends, who also praised them. But I agree, in the dangerous world of Freespace, pacifism will not suffice to stop the Shivans, or any other race of Superdestroyers.

It's not that I think we should stop striving for a better society, as I would never stand for an apathetic attitude about life, but I feel that we must not be overly optimistic either.  In six thousand years of recorded human history, our technology has advanced incredibly, but humanity as a whole has not changed all that much.
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline nuone

  • 25
Nehemiah has a great point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that human society would ever turn into such a pacifist state. Man has excelled at killing man since early history. That violent nature will never change on man's account alone.

It is also interesting to note that for thousands of years man has been "isolated" from other galactic civilizations and maintained its warring state and divisions. Are we really to believe that after being cut off from her colonies for less than a century, Earth is overtaken by wimps?

Such scenario appears unfeasible. Nonetheless, the end of BP:AoA clearly indicates that there is a special bond with our home planet that transcends political divides. That being the case the matter should have been resolved peacefully, regardless of the merits of governance. It seems ill-advised to engage in a campaign that weakens both parties to the point of vulnerability TO the Shivans. That clearly defeats the GTVA's supposed altruistic goal.

 

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • Do try it.
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
There are no clear-cut answers here. The whole question of the campaign is whether the UEF is too optimistic or the GTVA too cynical.

That's the whole point of the story.

Quote
Nehemiah has a great point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that human society would ever turn into such a pacifist state. Man has excelled at killing man since early history. That violent nature will never change on man's account alone.

Again, that's the question, isn't it?

Quote
Are we really to believe that after being cut off from her colonies for less than a century, Earth is overtaken by wimps?

An Elder might ask you why you think that someone who has the strength to say 'no' to murder is a wimp. When killing is the easy decision, the killers are the cowards, the Elder might suggest.

Quote
Don't get me wrong in any of what I'm saying.  I think that Blue Planet is a great set of campaigns and a great storyline.  I just feel that it would do better without all the Hinduism and Eastern religion mixed into it.

How would one side of the struggle be presented, then?

The UEF is, in many ways, a state built on applied psychology. It is an attempt to create a society in which individuals can be truly moral instead of being forced to compromise their beliefs to serve the situation. It is a state which believes that the ends do not justify the means.

Quote
It seems ill-advised to engage in a campaign that weakens both parties to the point of vulnerability TO the Shivans. That clearly defeats the GTVA's supposed altruistic goal.

No, it doesn't. The GTVA war was launched because they feared the alternative was the collapse of the Alliance.

I suggest checking out the dossiers on the BP website.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?
You just went into Godwin's law :D
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grĂ¢ce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Quote
An Elder might ask you why you think that someone who has the strength to say 'no' to murder is a wimp. When killing is the easy decision, the killers are the cowards, the Elder might suggest.

If the UEF has the strength to say "no" to fighting, then we'll see their true weakness in how they say "yes" to their own quick deaths.

Quote
The UEF is, in many ways, a state built on applied psychology. It is an attempt to create a society in which individuals can be truly moral instead of being forced to compromise their beliefs to serve the situation. It is a state which believes that the ends do not justify the means.

Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.  Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.  This is not the case.  Humanity is bent towards evil ans destruction, in that people only behave morally and do good because they fear the consequences and the established governing authority.  People do as much evil as they can get away with and behave wickedly when they believe that no one is watching them.  Kind of like cockroaches filling a room that scatter and disappear when a lightswitch is turned on.  People try to not get caught in their evil, but that does not change their nature.
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • Do try it.
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?
You just went into Godwin's law :D
Oh my. :P
Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.  Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.  This is not the case. Humanity is bent towards evil ans destruction, in that people only behave morally and do good because they fear the consequences and the established governing authority. People do as much evil as they can get away with and behave wickedly when they believe that no one is watching them.  Kind of like cockroaches filling a room that scatter and disappear when a lightswitch is turned on.  People try to not get caught in their evil, but that does not change their nature.
Bit of a cynical view, might I say. I do the right thing because I am at heart, a moral citizen. I don't help my friends and complete strangers out because I'm secretly a sadomasochist at heart and fearful of the government.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
You people take life (and this game) far too seriously. What happens, happens.

If I happen to be on a UEF ship when the war breaks out, I blow up Tevs. If I happen to be on a GTVA ship, I blow up Feds. Simple as that. :cool:

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Quote
Bit of a cynical view, might I say. I do the right thing because I am at heart, a moral citizen. I don't help my friends and complete strangers out because I'm secretly a sadomasochist at heart and fearful of the government.

Let's just keep telling ourselves this.

In addition, what else do you do that you consider to be not in conflict with your own sense of morality.  You who say you are moral, do you view pornography or fornicate?  Do you lie when you can get away with it?  Do you make yourself out to be greater at something than you really are?  Do you use profanity?  Do you gossip?  These are all things which society has recognized as acceptable, but are wrong nevertheless.  The behaviors categorized as moral or immoral differ greatly depending on who you ask.  So what is moral?  With so many possible definitions, consensus will never happen.  Mankind will not develop the utopia of the UEF, nor could it ever.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 10:53:29 am by Nehemiah »
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.

No, it doesn't, but since you obviously don't know any psychology I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on it. Actual human morality has nothing to do with 'bent towards good' or 'bent towards evil'; the fact that you're still making dispositional statements indicate you've never seen a good data set on the subject.

Quote
Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.

No, it indicates nothing of the sort. I'm discussing a setting, nothing to do with my own personal beliefs. It might indicate that the UEF believes that humanity is bent towards good.

I'm not going to continue discussing if you want to take things that way. The only thing I want you to understand about the WiH story is that there are no easy answers and no clear-cut good guys.

Honestly, this kind of behavior is really disappointing. I'm trying to discuss the nuances of the setting with you, and you jump on me about what I think and where I'm going to take the story.

Both sides have clear arguments for why they are on the moral high ground. It wouldn't be an interesting story if they weren't both potentially the Good Guys.

You're just going to have to trust that the story won't take sides.

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Quote
No, it doesn't, but since you obviously don't know any psychology I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on it. Actual human morality has nothing to do with 'bent towards good' or 'bent towards evil'; the fact that you're still making dispositional statements indicate you've never seen a good data set on the subject.

Actually, my mother-in-law is a Licensed Clincal Social Worker, and we talk psychology all the time.
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Clinical social workers =! research psychologists. If you can cite a few papers on authority effects or actual moral research you'll be in better shape.

This is immaterial, anyway; back on topic plz.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 11:23:54 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Nehemiah

  • 26
  • I prefer exploding spaceships to blood and gore.
Quote
This is immaterial, anyway; back on topic plz.

Yes, I agree, but a fun tangent nevertheless!  Yes, the UEF's lack of beam weaponry will be their undoing.  Or it ought to be anyway.

BTW, which Shivan Super Juggernaut would win in a fight?  The SSJ Dante or the SSJ Gigas?
The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace.  It failed...

No no!  I love the mod!  That's just what Commander Ivanova says at the beginning of B5 season 3.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
If you really want to think so hard about it, remember that the universe in which the UEF exists is just one of many. In another universe, the powers that evolved in Sol could be expansionist and violent... :drevil:

BTW, which Shivan Super Juggernaut would win in a fight?  The SSJ Dante or the SSJ Gigas?
The Gigas, hands down. Almost twice as long, with numerous super heavy beam cannons and the subspace weapon. But the Dante looks cooler. :P

 

Offline nuone

  • 25
Exhaust washout anyone?

I think the fact that we debate the storyline of this game with such fervor exemplifies its appeal!

Hopefully we do not get carried away.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
BP is awesame