[Mobius]

So I was browsing some random thread and I read the post of a community member that once had a mission file attached to it. Obviously, the attachment was no longer available and the classic phrase [attachment deleted by ninja] was showing up. I said to myself, mkay, you can't expect a file to stay there for that long, at some point it must be deleted.

Then I wondered, why? HLP is one big site and already stores a number of files used by project developers. It has admins who have done many great things in terms of coding and managing a forum, and also has a huge and productive fanbase that would love to have an additional tool for uploads and downloads. In poor words, the question is: why doesn't HLP have a downloads section, and how hard it would be to create one? One such section of the site would be extremely useful, as it would allow community members to post working pictures, mission files and even ship models on a place where they know they can be stored and viewed whenever is necessary, and it would also serve as a backup archive should sites like FreeSpaceMods experience problems.

I'm pretty sure the possibility of using HLP as a huge mod/file archive must have been considered as an option at some point in HLP's history, given the specific nature of this site, and I wonder why this can't be done now. If this poses a problem in terms of management, ok, but if it is a matter of money, I'm pretty sure there'd be community members (one is right here, writing this post) willing to donate in order to turn HLP into a major hub for mod downloads and uploads alike, and also the perfect place where to upload temporary files.

[Fury]

1. Hosting large files from same server that hosts these websites would consume bandwidth. In worst-case scenario resulting in unreasonably slow browsing experience. This server only has 10Mbit pipe. Most home internet connections have much faster download speeds than 10Mbit.

2. Forum attachments are strictly controlled by size and file type restrictions to avoid above scenarios as well as malicious use. Any such download section would need active and extensive oversight to guarantee people are not uploading malicious or illegal content.

3. Those files would be needed to be backed up through same 10Mbit pipe since there is no backup service in internal network. This would pretty much guarantee everyone abysmal site access for the duration of backup downloads.

4. Limited hard drive space. HLP server's HDD has filled up at least once in the past, even though that was because log rotation had malfunctioned. But if log files can fill up the space, so then can uploaded files.

5. Getting more than one server with more bandwidth and storage capacity costs money.

6. Internet has plenty of decent file download services.

[Goober5000]

Yeah, what Fury said.  HLP is intended for collaboration and coordination, not file hosting.

[zookeeper]

It's awfully redundant to have to say this, but exchanging files is an integral part of collaboration and coordination, and having to do it through other avenues takes time away from said collaboration and coordination, and in inevitable cases where people forget to do it through other avenues, having the files suddenly disappear very effectively hinders said collaboration and coordination.

[Mobius]

Fury, as I was trying to say at the beginning money is not an insourmontable obstacle as long as the sum that is required doesn't go beyond the "affordability" line. It mostly depends on that, and how much the community wants this to happen.

I mean, even if we need some 1,000$ per year, isn't that roughly the equivalent of 1-2 dollars per each active member of Hard Light? Also note that most people would surely donate much more than that.

[Goober5000]

It's awfully redundant to have to say this, but exchanging files is an integral part of collaboration and coordination, and having to do it through other avenues takes time away from said collaboration and coordination, and in inevitable cases where people forget to do it through other avenues, having the files suddenly disappear very effectively hinders said collaboration and coordination.

That's why we offer FTP hosting for projects based on HLP.  But we can't open that up to the general public.

Also note that most people would surely donate much more than that.

I'm very interested to see the donation analysis you performed to reach this conclusion.

[rev_posix]

It's awfully redundant to have to say this, but exchanging files is an integral part of collaboration and coordination, and having to do it through other avenues takes time away from said collaboration and coordination, and in inevitable cases where people forget to do it through other avenues, having the files suddenly disappear very effectively hinders said collaboration and coordination.

This is what most projects use a code repository for.  Subversion, git, etc, there are more than a few low cost to free services out there. 

Also to consider is copyright.  Granted, most of what is done here is 100% free of this concern, but there are a few things that are fan made content based on existing IP.  I've had to turn away a few project requests on my svn due to this.

Check back a bit ago and see what happened with ModDB and them pulling one of the more prominent projects here over the worry of copyright claims...

Unfortunately, this is a very real thing we have to watch for and do what we can to prevent from even coming up.  I know I don't have the resources to defend myself from a copyright claim, regardless of the validity of it.

Yes, it sucks big time.

[Polpolion]

Also note that most people would surely donate much more than that.

I'm very interested to see the donation analysis you performed to reach this conclusion.

Tangentially related, but I'm actually curious to see a breakdown of HLP"s income and expenditures. How much does it cost to run HLP, and how much of HLP's money comes from where? I can't imagine we're in any amount of financial trouble considering that no one's mentioned it, but judging by what I'm seeing in this thread it doesn't seem like HLP would be able to grow if it needed to.

[Fury]

but judging by what I'm seeing in this thread it doesn't seem like HLP would be able to grow if it needed to.

Ignoring financial situation completely, there are few other things that needs to happen first before HLP can grow and not collapse under its own unmanageable weight.

1) Technically skilled and trustworthy people in the community who have enough free time and dedication to take active technical administrative role. This ranges from extensive linux server know-how to web design (html, css, php, javascript, sql). The last time we recruited tech admins, there really weren't many takers. I practically had to persuade Zacam and rev_posix (or rather just Zacam, who brought rev_posix with him) to take over my role as tech admin when I resigned. There were only two other candidates. One was completely unknown with no history in HLP and the other was constant lurker in #hard-light who I wouldn't trust further than I can throw 20 kg rock.

2) Community administrators who don't need tech skills, but are diplomatic smooth talkers who take role in communicating with people and moderating forums, wiki and whatnot. This community manager role is for handling people and project relations and communication. These community managers don't take troll baits and don't get themselves carried out in arguments. Likewise enough free time and dedication is required. This would really help out the admins with tech skills to better focus their time spent on administrative duties. This is practically same role as regular admins had before HLP moved away from GameSpy.

3) Administration that is willing to actively recruit people to fill gaps in their current ranks. More than one person is required to cover each skillset because no matter how much we want it, nobody can predict what happens in their lives but we can be certain that HLP still requires attention. There is a limit one person with a job and family can do and let's face it, most of us aren't in their teens any more. Currently HLP does not have enough administrators covering all skillsets, which makes it difficult to maintain HLP as it is now. Then why don't the admins ask for help? Beats me. They're probably afraid to get yet another admin who is practically dead weight or don't want to hurt an administrator's feelings who has worked hard for many years by recruiting someone else for same role. Either way, I've said this past half-a-decade and I'm getting pretty tired of it myself, but HLP administration needs reality check, pronto. The way HLP has been going is not sustainable and no amount of money will fix that. Unless we're talking about large enough sums to actually hire professionals.

[Black Wolf]

I'm very interested to see the donation analysis you performed to reach this conclusion.

HLP has always been completely secretive and black-boxish about its financials. AFAIK*, nobody except Sandwich knows how much we receive, from where, or how much we pay, so that "donation analysis" has always been impossible. Bit harsh to get up Mobius like that about analysis that he could never do because the data is kept hidden.

Fury: You seem to make similar statements fairly frequently, but I'm not sure how valid they are. HLP has 13 years of success proving how sustainable it is. If the technical hurden of administration currently falls on too few shoulders, then that's a problem, sure, but I'm confident that people like Zacam and rev_posix would say something if they didn't feel they could handle it. I also happen to think that the forums and especially the wiki are moderated pretty well as they are, occasional issues and disagreements notwithstanding (they're inevitable, but fortunately rare on HLP).

*If I'm wrong about Sambo being the only one, that doesn't change the fact that data is still kept broadly away from the community as a whole. I know I've asked for it before and gotten nowhere.

[karajorma]

3) Administration that is willing to actively recruit people to fill gaps in their current ranks. More than one person is required to cover each skillset because no matter how much we want it, nobody can predict what happens in their lives but we can be certain that HLP still requires attention. There is a limit one person with a job and family can do and let's face it, most of us aren't in their teens any more. Currently HLP does not have enough administrators covering all skillsets, which makes it difficult to maintain HLP as it is now. Then why don't the admins ask for help? Beats me. They're probably afraid to get yet another admin who is practically dead weight or don't want to hurt an administrator's feelings who has worked hard for many years by recruiting someone else for same role. Either way, I've said this past half-a-decade and I'm getting pretty tired of it myself, but HLP administration needs reality check, pronto. The way HLP has been going is not sustainable and no amount of money will fix that. Unless we're talking about large enough sums to actually hire professionals.

Sorry but that last one is complete and utter bull****. I'm sure most of the admins on here would be happy to recruit other admins to bolster our ranks and allow us to do other stuff. I know I certainly would. The big problem is that as you said in the other two points, there isn't anyone technically qualified who is also trustworthy enough to take on the role. Even if we found such a person, they'd probably be too busy with their real life and projects on HLP to be able to spend much time on HLP.

I'm quite amazed that having outlined the problem so well in the last two points you then decided to descend into frothing insanity to find another reason for it.

[Fury]

I'm sorry what? Are you presuming
1) To know every single person visiting HLP.
2) To know skills of every single person visiting HLP.
3) To know free time every single person visiting HLP has.
4) Keep track of all of these over the span of several years?

I'd like to know what magic you are using.

People change and so does their skills as well as free time. Several years is more than enough time for people to gain new skills or improve existing ones. Several years is more than enough time for life to change in terms of available free time. Several years is also more than enough time for new people to come to HLP or old ones leave.

Trying to recruit new administrators and failing to find suitable people is different from not even trying. That's the problem, you're not even trying. Tech administrators aside, you haven't even tried to look for web designers which is what would be needed to get that bloody mainpage finished in less than two decades, or fix/upgrade/re-do templates/themes.

There is definitely insanity here, but it's not coming from me.

Fury: You seem to make similar statements fairly frequently, but I'm not sure how valid they are. HLP has 13 years of success proving how sustainable it is. If the technical hurden of administration currently falls on too few shoulders, then that's a problem, sure, but I'm confident that people like Zacam and rev_posix would say something if they didn't feel they could handle it. I also happen to think that the forums and especially the wiki are moderated pretty well as they are, occasional issues and disagreements notwithstanding (they're inevitable, but fortunately rare on HLP).

HLP administrators traditionally do not let public know much about what is happening in the background. The public knows only what they visibly see but that's not the whole story.

Both Zacam and rev_posix have managed to keep most of the HLP up and running, despite of semi-frequent downtimes but that is hardly their fault. They're just making the best of less than ideal situation.  Much bigger problem is absence and inactivity of Sandwich. Goodwill and respect towards Sandwich does not magically mean much needed work gets done. He's either busy with his own life or as it stands, been ill lately. HLP would need another web designer with html/css/php/javascript skills. Something HLP has never recruited for in the past as far as I am aware. And ideally, we could have used another web designer half a decade ago at least.

[karajorma]

I tell you what, we'll use this thread as an example. Let's see who steps forward. Bear in mind we do need people we can trust. I wouldn't make Ironforge an admin no matter what he said his skills were.

[TopAce]

I suggest making and announcement or a highlight to attract more potential candidates. This is important.

[Lorric]

On the subject of no suitable candidates, hypothetically, would niffiwan (hope you don't mind me saying it niffiwan) do as an Admin?

He's very nice, knows his way around mantis, frequently helps people with technical issues, spends lots of time here...

[The E]

On the subject of no suitable candidates, hypothetically, would niffiwan (hope you don't mind me saying it niffiwan) do as an Admin?

He's very nice, knows his way around mantis, frequently helps people with technical issues, spends lots of time here...

But does he know how to administrate a server? Does he have the technical experience necessary to maintain and if necessary upgrade the software running on this server? Does he know how to build a maintainable website?

Being nice is not an adequate qualification for the job. Knowing how to use Mantis, or how to help people with their FSO problems, or writing code for FSO aren't adequate qualifications either. The skills we're looking for are rather specific, and they're not generally relevant to FSO modding (thus someone who has these skills is unlikely to have communicated said fact here on the boards).

[Fury]

I tell you what, we'll use this thread as an example. Let's see who steps forward. Bear in mind we do need people we can trust. I wouldn't make Ironforge an admin no matter what he said his skills were.

If you are serious about it, don't underplay it. Make a proper recruitment announcement to gather as much attention as possible and stress that it's actually real recruitment and not about proving a point.

would niffiwan (hope you don't mind me saying it niffiwan) do as an Admin?

People should come forward on their own, though you can always nudge them towards a good cause.

Being nice is not an adequate qualification for the job. Knowing how to use Mantis, or how to help people with their FSO problems, or writing code for FSO aren't adequate qualifications either. The skills we're looking for are rather specific, and they're not generally relevant to FSO modding (thus someone who has these skills is unlikely to have communicated said fact here on the boards).

You're forgetting community admins who take care of people and projects. It's equally important job as then tech admins can handle tech problems and not use their time on people. At the moment this is not a priority though, but it will be if HLP ever grows.

[Scotty]

You're forgetting community admins who take care of people and projects. It's equally important job as then tech admins can handle tech problems and not use their time on people. At the moment this is not a priority though, but it will be if HLP ever grows.

Oh, you mean Mods.  We have quite a few of those.  Unless you have some criteria for "community admin" that mods don't already take care of.

[Lorric]

You're forgetting community admins who take care of people and projects. It's equally important job as then tech admins can handle tech problems and not use their time on people. At the moment this is not a priority though, but it will be if HLP ever grows.

Oh, you mean Mods.  We have quite a few of those.  Unless you have some criteria for "community admin" that mods don't already take care of.

I had wondered about that myself, that sounded like global mods do that job.

Anyway, it is as Fury says, if this is to be done seriously, rather than some little throwaway post tucked away in this little topic in Site Support that most people aren't going to see, a proper, detailed post breaking down what the admins are looking for and what you'll be expected to be responsible for should be posted in a seperate topic.

[Fury]

Oh, you mean Mods.  We have quite a few of those.  Unless you have some criteria for "community admin" that mods don't already take care of.

No, public relations and communication with individuals and projects is what community admins do. Administrators job is not only about fixing **** when things break, but communicate with people and projects to ensure their needs are fulfilled as well as figure out how to improve services. Community admins also keep their eyes on everyday activity and stay on top of things. Basically community admins handle all non-tech tasks in administration. Moderators take the load off from community admins the same way community admins take the load off from tech admins.