[MP-Ryan]

Something really interesting happened on HLP in the last day-and-a-half, and it's worth talking about in a more meta-view.

For one of the first time's in my recollection, and despite the lock (which I'm hoping the mods reverse, though I can understand The E's reasons behind it), we had a discussion where someone stated an unpopular, offensive, and factually inaccurate opinion that was not a direct personal attack, and it didn't get treated like a personal attack.  The thread didn't get locked.  Rather, a broad swath of community members took to the thread in a polite and respectful way to challenge and refute that view, and it worked - it's abundantly clear to anyone reading that thread that the original post is an opinion that doesn't act as a personal attack and therefore won't be removed, but simultaneously earned the disapproval of a whole bunch of people who expressed that in a respectful way.

...and it's somewhat ironic that it involved the topic and players that did did after the discussion in the rules thread, in which I was drawing the difference between an offensive but non-personal attacking statement on a group of people, versus the same type of statement toward an individual, and how one is generally acceptable while the other was not.  I'm actually glad it played out the way it did, because I'm hoping this sets a bit of a precedent in the new style of moderation stemming from the new guidelines.

Anyway, just thought it's worth talking about briefly since this appears to stem from the new moderation/guidelines approach, and I think it's a very positive development.  The only suggestion I might have is that, while the thread was becoming more heated, it also was still maintaining a pretty respectful tone and perhaps could have continued without a lock (which I've said before, and I think others agreed, we wanted only used as a last resort). (Let's strike the lock discussion so as not to lose focus, see my response to The E below).

So...yeah.  Discuss.

[The E]

I am not so sure that leaving it unlocked would have been a good idea at this point. Given the parallel discussions in IRC at the time (especially after InsaneBaron's last statement), I felt that locking the thread and waiting for people to cool off a bit would be the best course of action.

[Luis Dias]

Too soon man.

Look, this was also discussed last night in IRC. I brought up your written examples as analogies to precisely what went on. Basically my conclusion of what the mod team told me is that while not a personal attack it was asking to be moderated and it was so - it *was* split and only let on until InsaneBaron either apologized or explained, he did so, the purpose of the thread was finished. More than that, I think that The_E made the right call, because the thread was escalating, not defusing, for various reasons. We here in the HLP are a variety bunch and that was made patently clear there.

[MP-Ryan]

I am not so sure that leaving it unlocked would have been a good idea at this point. Given the parallel discussions in IRC at the time (especially after InsaneBaron's last statement), I felt that locking the thread and waiting for people to cool off a bit would be the best course of action.

...and of course, I wasn't present in IRC so I don't have the complete picture.  Like I said, I totally understand the lock, and I guess I should clarify:  I didn't post this thread to necessarily discuss or question the decision to lock.  I posted this thread to discuss how the new moderation scheme is evolving and, now that we have one excellent example of the difference between personal attacks and offensive generalized opinions, how people feel about the way the new guidelines are being applied.

For the record, I really like the way this was handled, and hope the community encourages more of it.

[Luis Dias]

Battuta disagreed with you there. And Goober almost ressuscitated a new dramafest with him. I would hardly call that thread a success story.

[MP-Ryan]

Battuta disagreed with you there. And Goober almost ressuscitated a new dramafest with him. I would hardly call that thread a success story.

It's an evolving process.  I think its abundantly clear that many people disagreed with me advocating in the other thread for a strict policy of moderating action only with personal attacks and not offensive comments towards generalized groups, yet in practice we ended up with a result that appears at least acceptable to the moderation team and I don't take issue with... something of a middle ground.

The fact that a dramafest *almost* resulted and yet was *avoided* is worth drawing attention to.

At the risk of drawing attention to my would-you-like-fries-with-that-psychology-minor background, let's talk about our feelings

[Luis Dias]

You are working on the assumption that this is already over.

I'm still waiting to see if it is avoided. Until Battuta or Goober come back and don't reignite it I'll repeat it: too soon.

At the risk of drawing attention to my would-you-like-fries-with-that-psychology-minor background, let's talk about our feelings

Wat.

[InsaneBaron]

I think a couple important conclusions can be drawn.

1. It's entirely possible for someone in a bad mood to post something that their better judgement would tell them is wrong. If angry, have a glass of water before posting.

2. Giving a person a chance to make some sort of apology is a good idea. Unfortunately not everyone will be cooled down by such an apology, and that's to be expected.

3. Going off one and two, not everyone is going to stand by every post they make, and it's not unreasonable to ask someone to admit that they've crossed the line.

4. Not every response to a bad post is going to be a bad post (see Joshua), but not every response to a bad post is going to be a good post either.

And 5. I don't have an objection either way about whether thread is locked or not; I'm going to have to deal with the results of my post either way unless I leave HLP (which would be cowardly). However, I'm all for giving people a chance to calm down.

[Grizzly]

(see Joshua)

Thank you .

[InsaneBaron]

(see Joshua)

Thank you .

I appreciate anyone who can stay cool in a situation like that and debate actual points respectfully. Even I fail to stay cool at times.

[Goober5000]

Splitting the thread and asking InsaneBaron to retract his post was appropriate.  But everybody started adding his own take on the situation, and that just inflamed the situation further.

In particular, Flipside...

Whilst I don't want to dogpile, what angers me is...

...and Battuta...

e: sorry Kara, hadn't seen your post. Still.

...actually admitted that they were dogpiling even though they acknowledged karajorma's warning against it.  And Zacam...

Any apology would just strike me as shallow and meaningless, but I'll allow for the effort of one anyway.

...implied that wouldn't matter whether InsaneBaron apologized or not.

I think there is still some room for improvement.

[Flipside]

I think you are expecting too much Goober.

Most of the comments on that thread at the start were not attacking Baron, but attacking the comment and wanting clarification on what was meant, which is what is wanted.

If you keep moving the hurdles, you'll keep confusing people.

[InsaneBaron]

Most of the comments on that thread at the start were not attacking Baron, but attacking the comment and wanting clarification on what was meant, which is what is wanted.

If you keep moving the hurdles, you'll keep confusing people.

MOST of the comments. Not all, unfortunately.

[Flipside]

Well, that's the nature of forums everywhere, you'll always get a few, as you yourself said, people get angry and type things they don't actually mean because of that anger.

You'll never, ever erase that completely, but I will say it's a lot harder to do if nearly everyone else is trying to be reasonable.

[Luis Dias]

MOST of the comments. Not all, unfortunately.

If only we could meet your standards.

[InsaneBaron]

MOST of the comments. Not all, unfortunately.

If only we could meet your standards.

I don't want to start the argument all over again, so I'm going to resist the temptation to respond in kind here. If you don't want to restart the drama, sarcasm isn't going to help.

[Grizzly]

(see Joshua)

Thank you .

I appreciate anyone who can stay cool in a situation like that and debate actual points respectfully. Even I fail to stay cool at times.

I haven't developed a relationship due to various difficulties that proved to be impossible for both of us to overcome at the time. As a result, the feelings of one who has overcome these hurdles and has succesfully developed a relationship are alien to me, as I have not experienced them. Like an author of, say, an FS2 campaign can make me gain an understanding for what a person feels at a time, I don't feel exactly what the protagonist feels.

However, I do have an understanding of relationships. For many, it is the greatest thing they have ever accomplished, the greatest passion they know. It defines who they are, in a very good way. It's their heart.

That diabolical statement of yours attempted to rip the heart out of half the forum's members and paint it black. I understand that that is not what you intended, however... Had I been part of the group that that statement made such dark accusations about, I would not have stayed so calm. Again, I don't feel what some have felt, but I can comprehend it.

EDIT: slight edits for the sake of softening up the post a bit. I may have been hyperboling for dramatic effect, which is probably unwise.

[InsaneBaron]

(see Joshua)

Thank you .

I appreciate anyone who can stay cool in a situation like that and debate actual points respectfully. Even I fail to stay cool at times.

I haven't developed a relationship due to various difficulties that proved to be impossible for both of us to overcome at the time. As a result, the feelings of one who has overcome these hurdles and has succesfully developed a relationship are alien to me, as I have not experienced them. Like an author of, say, an FS2 campaign can make me gain an understanding for what a person feels at a time, I don't feel exactly what the protagonist feels.

However, I do have an understanding of relationships. For many, it is the greatest thing they have ever accomplished, the greatest passion they know. It defines who they are, in a very good way. It's their heart.

That diabolical statement of yours attempted to rip the heart out of half the forum's members and paint it black, white and red. I understand that that is not what you intended, however... Had I been part of the group that that statement made such dark accusations about, I would not have stayed so calm.

Which brings us back to the fact that, had I realized at the time the accusation I was making, I wouldn't have posted.

[Grizzly]

True. You did continue to make less dark but still rather bad statements afterwards though (which is why I was responding in the first place), which were thematically linked to the post that kicked it off in the first place. I don't think this send a positive signal to those rightfully offended. A full apology and subsequent withdrawal would have been my choice, in that situation.

[Luis Dias]

MOST of the comments. Not all, unfortunately.

If only we could meet your standards.

I don't want to start the argument all over again, so I'm going to resist the temptation to respond in kind here. If you don't want to restart the drama, sarcasm isn't going to help.

So I ask you to drop the condescending and professorial tone. It's a bit maddening for me to see you pointing fingers at the reaction of some people after what you wrote in that tone of yours. A bit of discretion, I agree, is advised. I refrained from making the same comment that Battuta eventually wrote because I did not want to "create more drama", but I'm beggining to think that was ill-advised. I am also learning here how to properly engage the community and particularly today and yesterday were bizarre and hard.