[Lorric]

I'll wait to hear it from Black Wolf and Zacam.

Thank you.

[Goober5000]

Well I trusted the members of the moderation staff who said they were dealing with issues to do with you to tell you if you were being reported or if your own reports were unnecessary and being viewed at attempts to cause trouble. If that didn't happen, then I'm more than willing to sit down with the other moderators and look at this ban in detail.

As far as recent statistics, Lorric was reported once on August 30th for this post and once on August 25th for this one.  The last one prior to that was on August 6th.

However, just this past weekend, Lorric himself reported six posts in the span of two days.

[Lorric]

Given that he's been reported a ridiculous number of times this month, and you haven't been, you're pretty safe.

You told a lie Karajorma. None this month, only 3 last month. Why?

As far as recent statistics, Lorric was reported once on August 30th for this post and once on August 25th for this one.  The last one prior to that was on August 6th.

However, just this past weekend, Lorric himself reported six posts in the span of two days.

No one told me about August 30th. Maybe because the thread got locked so there was no need?

August 25th is the one Zacam spoke to me about.

August 6th, I don't know. I made a lot of posts that day, there is one I could imagine it being.

I did send 6 reports. If the report system was more flexible, I would have at least sent the first 3 as one, and probably would have been able to send another pair as one. Anyway, I'm hoping to talk to Zacam about that.

[Zacam]

tl;dr summary: I don't agree with perma-GenDisc ban.

Somewhat longer summary:

I have been discussing matters when and where they occur in relation to Lorric. Those discussions are held in private confidence unless Lorric chooses to allow me to disclose them.

I did have a discussion with Lorric in regards to the reports he was making and how the report system is to be used. In my opinion, that discussion went well.

As for the reported posts that took place, each one was discussed as to their merits and flaws and where perception vs. interpretation ended up making for what I deemed to be an excusable allowance and a recognizable and satisfactory discussion was had regarding them.

So at this point, especially on the point of the post that seems to have served "the final straw", I really do not think that a perma-ban from Gen Disc is going to improve or resolve anything in any significant manner, much less for a desirable positive outcome.

I seem to perceive (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that we are all assuming that since we are all here, that we are all here with the same tacit understandings and developments in terms of "how things are done". And that's frankly not ever been the case and never will be. We cannot correct properly by castigation and chastisement alone, which seems to be the bulk of how we manage our affairs here on this forum and that is starting to be both rather depressing as well as cause for a lot of the boiling point flash-flood problems that we've been seeing more and more of lately.

There are significantly WORSE behaviours in Gen Disc that should be having this focus of attention on them by long standing individuals. But mostly because they ARE long standing, everybody seems content to let that be, so I fail to see why we'll allow for those instances to have their own quarters, but have none here in this case when what we are dealing with at worst is somebody that is new to a place like ours and COULD learn a lot from it, if only we bothered applying both some respect and some patience that we're supposed to have in terms of being the long standing community we are.

That being said; Lorric:

There were perhaps some better ways, less confrontational in style, for raising this discussion and making your points. I'm sure we'll discuss that at a later time.

[Lorric]

Thank you very much Zacam. If you want to bring something up from our talks, just ask me.

That being said; Lorric:

There were perhaps some better ways, less confrontational in style, for raising this discussion and making your points. I'm sure we'll discuss that at a later time.

Sure, no problem.

[karajorma]

I did say perma-banned until further notice. As far as I'm concerned that's until we stop seeing the sort of behaviour that results in the need for a ban.

As for the accusation that I lied, I meant "This last month" not "This month of September which is only 5 days old". Yeah, that's an error on my part, but the attempt to frame it as a lie is exactly the sort of issue that is causing you problems Lorric!

I'll address Zacam's comments when I'm not on my phone.

[Lorric]

Three reports is not a ridiculous number.

[The E]

Three reports is not a ridiculous number.

Yes, it actually is (Because 3 is not the actual number). In August, we had a grand total of 18 reported posts (Disclaimer: There may have been more, but my email archive for the report post mails only goes back 30 days). Of those, 6 were made by you. 4 of them were about posts by you; and of the 6 posts you reported, 5 were part of a vendetta you were pursuing against NGTM1-R and 1 was you commenting on how you felt the manner of a thread closure was wrong.

You are making a disproportionate number of appearances in the post report queue, basically, either as the reporter or the reported.

[Lorric]

Then it's 4. Ridiculous implies something difficult to count. He only said about me being reported.

And no, no vendetta. Just not knowing about report etiquette.

[Zacam]

The E: Let's stick with numbers, rather than involving the details behind those numbers, please. This is (while Members only) still a 'Public' forum, as a result, specifics in terms of details of what should be considered privately handled material is probably not the best way to go.

Three reports is not a ridiculous number.

Yes, it actually is (Because 3 is not the actual number). In August, we had a grand total of 18 reported posts (Disclaimer: There may have been more, but my email archive for the report post mails only goes back 30 days). Of those, 6 were made by you. 4 of them were about posts by you.

You are making a disproportionate number of appearances in the post report queue, basically, either as the reporter or the reported.

The above would be a more clear and factual presentation.

(and now for In General):

And correct, in terms of distant OR recent HLP History of Behaviour, it IS disproportionate to what we are used to, but is still something that CAN be corrected for, rather than just blatantly ejected for having happened. Again, far worse transgressions have happened in the history of HLP and even to this day, there are still plenty of individuals that still persist in maintaining problematic behaviours that are sort of "tolerated" more so than others.

It doesn't, to my opinion, serve us well as a community that for everything that we can stand against, that we're being intolerant to somebody unfamiliar to our community or unfamiliar with what it means to be a part of any sort of community that we'd rather decisively punish their participation and potential for growth when there are far worse to be dealt with. I'm talking Vik Thor, DarthWang, High Max quality characters here, of which I can't account Lorric as being any of -unless- we decided that he's only fit for being such and treat as accordingly, which is just the worst possible community reinforcement that I can think of.

Edit: To raise a point, valid as it is: Yes, I know Lorric has been here for 3 years. And has a post count that should, by some peoples measure of "significance" mean that he isn't "new". This is a somewhat fair statement to make, yes. But I think it makes some assumptions about measuring that we should all "get" things all at the same same pace that isn't strictly true.

[Phantom Hoover]

HLP isn't a special school. You don't have a duty to help everyone integrate into the community, no matter how incapable they show themselves to be.

[Zacam]

Phantom Hoover: My apologies, was there a point to that? Because I'm failing to see one.

[jr2]

bah

humbug

(I concur)

[Phantom Hoover]

Lorric has had a very fair opportunity to learn how to interact with other people here. If he genuinely wants to overcome his problems with social interactions there are places for him to do that; a Freespace modding forum has no obligation to provide one.

[Luis Dias]

Yes, well, the best places to learn how to interact people is where people are. And I definitely think he's not the only one who could learn a thing or two about social interactions.

[Zacam]

There are places? Really? Cite them for me please. Cause I'm not aware of any "Etiquette 101" sites, or "Forums and You" specific communities that would ALSO happen to serve for the interests that drew him towards here that are the same as for everybody else: FreeSpace, as either a game or an Engine and the attendant mods and community surrounding it.

A community which will require of every one to learn. Learning happens where you happen to be, simply deciding that he should "do it elsewhere" isn't an answer, because then we'd just be a ghost town while everybody did all their "learning" somewhere else. Deciding that YOU don't want to partake in that is all well and fine, but deciding that it just doesn't get to happen period here? That's just sad.

And further more, a GENERAL DISCUSSION board is the best place for it to happen. Unless you'd rather it happen within ALL of the other attendant boards, Gen Disc should rationally be the MOST open place for learning to happen, for mistakes and misunderstandings as well as for penalties and punishments. Except, apparently, in HIS case. Somebody mentioned (though not specifically here) "why should he have any special treatment, why shouldn't he be treated like every other member?". Yes, he is a normal user. Which doesn't remove the aegis of treating him as a fellow human being.

As an aside, I have this image of two Titans, clashing over "Debates" and assumptions and foundations of "Knowledge" and then, irrationally, Bugs Bunny pops up chewing a carrot and going "Ehhhh, what's up, Doc?". Only instead of a slight pause while some people giggle at it, everybody is completely loosing their **** over it.

Also, be careful in how you determine what should be tolerated. You may find that you have put yourself on the wrong side of the line, and wouldn't that be embarrassing.

[Spoon]

Lorric has had a very fair opportunity to learn how to interact with other people here. If he genuinely wants to overcome his problems with social interactions there are places for him to do that; a Freespace modding forum has no obligation to provide one.

I could make a fairly lengthy argument how the same could be said about your posting style tbh. You don't mean to imply that the only way to have social interactions here is to make a stream of cynical mean spirited posts and to make sure to let people know how much you don't like a subject matter. Do you? Because that's what a lot of your posts read like to me. Yet here you are, jumping on Lorric.

[karajorma]

And yet Phantom Hoover has been banned and warned for his behaviour on several occasions. Why has Lorric been treated more leniently for behaviour that is just as disruptive? Why hasn't Zacam stepped forwards to take PH under his wing?

So at this point, especially on the point of the post that seems to have served "the final straw", I really do not think that a perma-ban from Gen Disc is going to improve or resolve anything in any significant manner, much less for a desirable positive outcome.

Lorric does generate a significant number of reports from other boards too. If you can stop those, I might believe you can stop others. If you can't, then why should I believe you can have any effect on his behaviour on Gen Discuss?

There are significantly WORSE behaviours in Gen Disc that should be having this focus of attention on them by long standing individuals. But mostly because they ARE long standing, everybody seems content to let that be, so I fail to see why we'll allow for those instances to have their own quarters, but have none here in this case when what we are dealing with at worst is somebody that is new to a place like ours and COULD learn a lot from it, if only we bothered applying both some respect and some patience that we're supposed to have in terms of being the long standing community we are.

And who says Lorric is going to be the only person we're going to deal with this week? Hopefully with more carrot than stick, but why stop at Lorric? Quite frankly I want to see Gen Discuss as the kind of place that people were talking about during the last topic on this subject when we hammered out a new set of guidelines. We're not going to do that if we take on members as special projects and let them continue to drag the place down because we've decided that they're not going to pay for their actions.

[Mobius]

Whatever action is taken I think it shouldn't prevent a given member from asking for tech support or contributing to the mods he works for. I don't want to address this case in particular because I don't believe I know enough to judge anyone here, but I really have to admit that a more or less permanent ban from General Discussion (which, by the way, as a subforum has caused so many problems here I wonder why it still exists) is probably among the best ways to calm people down without actually disrupting modding activities.

As I said, however, it doesn't mean I believe Lorric deserves it.

[NGTM-1R]

A community which will require of every one to learn. Learning happens where you happen to be, simply deciding that he should "do it elsewhere" isn't an answer, because then we'd just be a ghost town while everybody did all their "learning" somewhere else. Deciding that YOU don't want to partake in that is all well and fine, but deciding that it just doesn't get to happen period here? That's just sad.

Not true. You are inventing an obligation to assist others out of whole cloth; this is something we have never done before and will very likely never do again. The services by the moderation that have been offered to Lorric have been offered to no other member, new or old. It isn't as if anyone offered to be Liberator's or Trashman's personal guardian angel when they were given the boot from GenDisc. Liberator would have actually fit most of the same criteria of behavior, and was probably a better candidate considering he showed actual public contrition on occasion rather than relentless public noncomprehension.

Furthermore, the obligation you are positing does not exist inside the rules of the forum (self-explanatory, go look) or its mission; FreeSpace discussion and modding. There is nothing inherently requiring us to socialize those without social experience. (Please note wording, someone will try to misinterpret that.) We are certainly not under obligation to help someone work through their persistent socialization issues; like Wikipedia, while we may have sympathy for those with issues mental, social, or otherwise, our site is not meant to help them through it and they will not get much useful help here.

Furthermore, as you note, Lorric has been here three years. Whatever obligation we had to help him learn the social ropes of this particular forum (not the social ropes in general, because as noted this implies issues far more serious than we are either obliged or equipped to handle), has expired. Even the most generous of newbie grace periods, say a year and a half, has passed. We do have actual reform cases on record here, Cobra comes to mind, and none of them took longer than that.