[Spoon]

To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation. 

And yet Phantom Hoover has been banned and warned for his behaviour on several occasions. Why has Lorric been treated more leniently for behaviour that is just as disruptive? Why hasn't Zacam stepped forwards to take PH under his wing?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You tell me, I don't run this place.

[Luis Dias]

I don't think the obligation of being tolerant and understanding towards each other is ever expired. I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.

[Lorric]

It's not even true. A gen disc perma and one month ban are far worse than the cumulative bans PH has received.

I don't think the obligation of being tolerant and understanding towards each other is ever expired. I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.

Pretty much.

[mjn.mixael]

People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)

Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.

1: The moderation team should never be bound for eternity by what they have or haven't done in the past. (I'm talking about actions, not posted rules or commitments.) The team has changed. People change. The forum changes. If you hold the moderation team to "they never helped anyone before" then you should probably hold them to the older moderation standards that everyone already *****ed and moaned about.

2: Life isn't fair. People get treated differently. If you think HLP is going to be your place to make a stand on that universal issue... good luck, man. Good luck. Just because someone helps one person out does not automatically obligate them to help all people out. That's a **** standard and you all know it.

3: Lorric, at least to me, has reached out in private over and over again. When he reaches out to me (again, where none of you can see it), he is asking in an honest tone "What did I do wrong?", "How can I not do that again?", "What is going on in that thread that caused THAT to happen?". My point is that YOU may not see it, but Lorric is trying. Tossing him off the bus because it's taking a little longer than YOU (selfishly) may like... well, I think that's pretty stupid.

4: Most of the time, GenDisc could be relabeled to "Non-FS Threads of Epic HLP Fights"... and Lorric is who everyone is worried about? What about the intolerant assholes who post in threads just to stir it up? C'mon, we all know who they are. They are the reason I stopped regularly reading GenDisc.

5: This.

To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation. 

[Flipside]

The problem with simply locking the thread is that it goes too far in the other direction.

People have repeatedly asked the moderators to lock threads less and allow the community to moderate itself more. 

I don't particularly want to see controversial topics locked the second they get heated.

The question is, were the community living up to that agreement in that particular thread? An agreement is a two-way thing and there had already been a LOT of reports for that thread, that had been mentioned. This wasn't the second it got heated, it was considerably beyond that point.

If you are going to make some kind of 'deal' with us, we should be just as expected to keep to that deal as Admin is.

[Lorric]

Why not just instruct someone not to post in a particular thread if they are disrupting it? That was spoken of in the new guidelines. That was to stop threads going to hell and swinging the hammer unnecessarily.

[Lorric]

People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)

Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.

1: The moderation team should never be bound for eternity by what they have or haven't done in the past. (I'm talking about actions, not posted rules or commitments.) The team has changed. People change. The forum changes. If you hold the moderation team to "they never helped anyone before" then you should probably hold them to the older moderation standards that everyone already *****ed and moaned about.

Indeed. It should be an evolving process, ever moving towards improvement for the good of all.

3: Lorric, at least to me, has reached out in private over and over again. When he reaches out to me (again, where none of you can see it), he is asking in an honest tone "What did I do wrong?", "How can I not do that again?", "What is going on in that thread that caused THAT to happen?". My point is that YOU may not see it, but Lorric is trying. Tossing him off the bus because it's taking a little longer than YOU (selfishly) may like... well, I think that's pretty stupid.

And that is why Zacam and Black Wolf have helped me. Because I asked them humbly for help. Not because I am "the chosen one." Others have not been so kind. And people would criticise them for their efforts? Goober deserves inclusion here too, for he has given me plenty of help too, especially in the period of my one month ban.

5: This.

To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation. 

While I do appreciate the sentiment, the decision should still be mine to make. Right now, I have to do that whether I like it or not.

[NGTM-1R]

People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)

Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.

If that is honestly what you think is being said, then you didn't read what's been posted very closely at all. Not only is it unique to Lorric, Lorric has not even been the best candidate for rehabilitation in this fashion, and his issues are arguably beyond what the moderators should be trying to help with as amateurs at this point.

And you're right, only it's not twisting.

If you're going to argue that moderation is inherently unfair and we should just live with that, then you've basically missed the trajectory that moderation discussion has been on since I've come to these forums and the general trajectory of thought about systems of governance in the last several hundred years of human civilization. The search for and creation of progressively more fair and equitable systems has been the goal of every rules discussion we've had on the forums and a major driving force in human political evolution. Fairness is not just something we want; it's something we need to believe in.

Your hackneyed cynicism offers us nothing of interest. We know the system is unfair, just as we know we do not want it to be, and hence we are having this discussion at least in part because fairness is a trait we all desire the system to get better at. If you merely want to complain about the status quo ante, make your own thread. The rest of us are going to try and solve what we perceive to be a problem.

[mjn.mixael]

I am now a turd, but I stand by my comments.

If you want to get all philosophical about fairness... Well... Fairness is not an even playing field for all people in all circumstances. If that were the case, then it would not be fair that my 3 year old gets time-outs for fussing while my 1 1/2 year old does not. They are different ages, different levels of maturity, in different states of leading social norms, and so the punishment takes that into account.

I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.

[Lorric]

I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.

Yes, and people want to talk about fairness...

How confusing it is for me trying to learn what is acceptable and is not under these conditions...

[karajorma]

I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.

People keep assuming we're not planning on dealing with them too.

[Luis Dias]

NGTM is fundamentally wrong in almost all levels here. Before that, let's not dwell much about the kind of usual insulting snarkiness with sentences like "And you're right, only it's not twisting.", but I think I'm obliged to say they aren't unnoticed.

Now, NG speaks about how Lorric hasn't been "the best candidate". I don't honestly know what this can possibly mean, outside of a weird self-entitled feeling of unjustice regarding how Lorric was better treated than some aledged other. This is an entirely subjective assessment, and yet it is declared with the tone of voice of moral authority from some high panteon or something. NG is not even a moderator. What is objective and already established is that Lorric was proactive in trying to both understand his failures and asking for help. Perhaps we could ask all those poor others if they were as much proactive or if they were just continuing their typical behavior even in PMs, but is this really a necessity? Speaking about "others" being "unjustly" treated in relation to Lorric would signify one is in possession of all these background facts and conversations, and as far as I am aware, none of these facts support this conclusion.

Hackneyed or not, MJN is perfectly entitled to state that "fairness" is not an objective assessment, it's always imperfect and all authority actions will always be considered "unfair" by a good amount of people. It's the nature of institutions and humans, I've yet to encounter an institution wherein all humans think it's amazingly fair without brainwashing or totalitarian mind control being happening. And I find the remark that mjn's "cynicism" is offering a plural person nothing of interest extremely weird at best. It is my own etiquette that I'll always only speak for myself, and so I have a hard time swallowing other people speaking for a vague and abstract unnamed "us" that seem to bear some kind of number support to one's own opinion.

Regardless, I haven't seen any attempt by mjn to bow down to any status quo or give in to any cynicism. All I saw was a fair attempt to have some sense of proportion to the ambition of having a "perfect" judicial system of every single behavior here. I'll also note that Karajorma's small tip that things shouldn't go unpunished reveals a kind of ... philosophy on how to deal with things that I honestly don't believe in (I am fully aware and at peace that the institutions might not share my philosophies).

[karajorma]

You think that misrepresenting Black Wolf and Zacam to save his own skin shouldn't go unpunished?

I don't know if you noticed it, but he pretty much started this debate trying to paint the picture that he wasn't aware of any issues surrounding his recent posts, as if this had come completely out of the blue. That narrative does not match Zacam's and I'm seriously in doubt it will match Black Wolf's given that I have access to something Black Wolf said recently.

So yes, if Lorric is going to start a thread accusing me of lying or blaming Black Wolf and he turns out to be the one lying, there will indeed be repercussions.

[Lorric]

I'm telling the truth. Let's see them come in here and say otherwise.

[karajorma]

Okay, lets get this crystal clear then.

Black Wolf has been working with me in recent times. Just on the 21st August I checked in with him after not hearing from him for a month. I asked if there were any problems with any of my posts or if I had been reported and he said no. I have heard nothing since of any problems.

So Zacam didn't notify you of any issues? Or do you simply mean that you heard nothing from Black Wolf?

It's not personal. Either you are lying, or Black Wolf did not follow through on his promise to tell me if I'm getting reported.

Okay, how many times did he tell you that you had been reported then?

[Lorric]

Recently, nothing from Black Wolf telling me I've been reported and the one report I specified with Zacam.

[karajorma]

For which date?

EDIT: I also had a chat with Black Wolf on either the end of the 27th or start of 28th about various things. That would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce concerns into the conversation. He said nothing, we just had a friendly chat.

So are you telling me he didn't tell you that you were reported on the 25th? It's possible that the report was closed before he saw it actually. Did Zacam tell you?

[Lorric]

The 25th. Zacam spoke to me about the 25th.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

I generally leave these threads alone, and if I do decide to weigh in, I try to be as tactful as possible, I say this because I have a feeling that I am about to fail miserably.

Karajorma, you and I have always spoken to one another with respect and friendship, as such I have always taken it for granted that there was a modicum of respect between us.  So, accept this in the spirit that it is meant.  You need to read this thread and not reply.  The very title of this thread is an attack on you personally, and as such your judgement in this matter is suspect.  You need to step away. 

As far as the matter at large is concerned, it is actually quite simple.  Someone was given a probation officer.  They did not modify their behavior.  There are repercussions.  ****ing get over it.  God this smoke filled coffee house lawyer bull**** pisses me off.  The bottom line is simple, we get told where we **** up, it is up to us to learn from it.  If we refuse to learn from it, there are repercussions.  Some of us get so busy taking an internal moral high ground that we fail to see anything beyond that.  People get so worried about the next guy that they expect to be treated like him.  I'm sorry but reality is that examples get made.  It is my fervent hope that examples continue to get made.  Maybe when enough examples are made a discussion of something inherently controversial can happen instead of an argument.  Give more people probation officers, then give em enough rope and see what they do with it.  Anyone with a shred of intelligence would have realized what was going on.  So Lorric, if you didn't realize what was happening the way Cobra did when I did what I could to help him along, it is the fault of no one but yourself.  Get over it.

I've long held to the fact that we will never believe in something more deeply than when we are forced to defend it.  This thread is filled with people defending what they believe, because this thread is filled with people attacking those same said beliefs. 

I find it ridiculous to think that people get so wrapped up in being right, that they don't bother to think about whether or not they ARE right. 

The outcome of this thread would have been the same in one post as opposed to three pages.  Lorric you were given chances, you blew it.  Be a man, suck it up, deal with it.  You created this thread and named it as such in order to garner attention, you succeeded.  Now your 15 minutes are up.  Move along.

Have all the fun you want with this post, I will read, but not reply.  Have your rebuttal, and call it a day.

[Flipside]

Was actually about to suggest it was taken down a notch, but oh well, it's not like ShadowWolf has actually said something that isn't true. Though I would add that attention-seeking is sometimes the result of desperation rather than selfishness, but there's no doubt the thread title wasn't the best one to choose and was designed to attract attention, which kicked this thread off on the wrong foot in the first place.

Ironically, you've summed up the curse of GD in general in a couple of paragraphs.