Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103349 times)

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yeah, JJ being back in the director's seat is dire news.

Alright then Trashman, would you mind telling us exactly what you qualify as lore-raping ? I'm asking because as a long time SW fan, I didn't find anything that was particularly shocking lore-wise.

I mean the movie's got issues for sure, but I haven't seen anything worth that kind of hyperbolic statement.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
If its dumb chalk it up to an unreliable narrator?   I mean sure if the whole Star Wars mythos is related to us by some drunk X-Wing jockey telling tall tales to impress women then I guess it makes sense. :P
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
"You miss the point because I say so!" - You

Or maybe you missed the point?
Maybe there is no point and you rationalizing in your head, filling the holes someone else made?
****, guess I'll have to defer to your legendary good taste in nuanced storytelling.

Alright then Trashman, would you mind telling us exactly what you qualify as lore-raping ? I'm asking because as a long time SW fan, I didn't find anything that was particularly shocking lore-wise.

I mean the movie's got issues for sure, but I haven't seen anything worth that kind of hyperbolic statement.
There were things he didn't like but can't come up with an objective reason why it was bad.  Therefore, it very vaguely raped the lore.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:46:30 am by Aesaar »

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Miss perfect Sue already knows it all then.
C'mon, you can't deny Rey is one of the worst characters ever put on TV.

Are you saying it's worse than a 5-year old accidentally blowing up a battleship? Or winning a high-skill race? Or a farm boy who's only flown planetary craft thrown into an X-Wing with no training and saving the day where experienced pilots failed?

Rey is kinda boring, and her 'development' in TFA was lazy, but worst character ever? Bit hyperbolic

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I feel like a critical component that is being overlooked in this discussion is that Star Wars never was all that good.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I feel like a critical component that is being overlooked in this discussion is that Star Wars never was all that good.

You have to define by what criteria you define good and bad for that to actually be a point of consideration.

Because Star Wars' impact, on both culture and the entertainment media cannot be understated.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I think you meant overstated?  Understated in that sentence implies it had virtually no impact.

Quote
C'mon, you can't deny Rey is one of the worst characters ever put on TV.

By what metric?  I read this statement and think you either can't possibly mean it seriously or you haven't watched any television or film ever.  Even if we leave aside thousands of absolutely awful made-for-TV movies and stick solely to major film release, Rey doesn't even slightly stand out as "one of the worst characters."  If we confine ourselves to Star Wars films, she's one of the better well-rounded characters who experiences at least some growth.  That alone makes her a better character than virtually every character in the combined prequel trilogy, who were all basically caricatures.  Even if you just want to base a criciticism of the Rey character on TFA, you then can compare that to Luke in ANH.  They're basically the same, albeit Luke is a ****-tonne more whiny and irritating.  If Rey is one of the worst, then guess where Luke gets placed too.

A statement like that makes it clear that you simply aren't being serious about making a point.
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I think you meant overstated?  Understated in that sentence implies it had virtually no impact.

Oh yeah. Correct.

  If we confine ourselves to Star Wars films, she's one of the better well-rounded characters who experiences at least some growth.  That alone makes her a better character than virtually every character in the combined prequel trilogy, who were all basically caricatures.

She smiles, gets angry sometimes, and looks scared sometimes too. This gives her more depth than all the Jedi of the prequels.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Miss perfect Sue already knows it all then.

Trashman failed to read my comment wherein I told him that Rey saved the ancient books. Oh well, figures.

And no, Rey is not a bad protag, by a long shot. I'd say she's not the worst protag of the Star Wars franchise in itself! I put Luke slightly above her, and that's due to his entire arc, so there's still a chance I will revise my choice here.

 

Offline Firesteel

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
You know the Tie Bombers drop bombs in pretty much the same manner in Empire Strikes back when they were bombing the asteroid looking for the Falcon.  It's stupid, but it's not new.

Bombing rocks like you're a destroyer looking for a submarine is still different than doing a low level carpet bombing run on a battleship. Also the Empire has more resources and far less regard for losses than the rebels in TLJ.

You're right, it's not new but 20 seconds of film vs. being the center piece of the opening sequence are different.
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I feel like a critical component that is being overlooked in this discussion is that Star Wars never was all that good.

You have to define by what criteria you define good and bad for that to actually be a point of consideration.

Because Star Wars' impact, on both culture and the entertainment media cannot be understated.

Right, it's not in the sense of cultural impact, otherwise we'd end up in an awkward situation where we have to put Star Wars on a similar level as something like Atlas Shrugged :ick:

But there's definitely a point at which we started considering Star Wars as something more then just a couple of pretty well-made fairytales-in-space* to the point that even the guy who simply says "Look sir, droids!" gets an entire backstory all of his own.   The original trilogy is treated with a degree of reverence that it doesn't really deserve - and a reverence it was never really built for either. Hyperbolic statements like "lore raping" imply that Star Wars has something of a similar level of depth as, say, Tolkien's universe and it really doesn't.

*with a few caveats, as I think Return of the Jedi definitely punched below it's weight.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Bombing rocks like you're a destroyer looking for a submarine is still different than doing a low level carpet bombing run on a battleship. Also the Empire has more resources and far less regard for losses than the rebels in TLJ.

You're right, it's not new but 20 seconds of film vs. being the center piece of the opening sequence are different.

It can also view it as simply a more efficient delivery system. Bombs don't need propulsion. 
Though given how many ships got destroyed it wasn't super efficient.

The TIE Fighter game had space bombs as well though they were just slow moving torpedoes with a bigger punch essentially.

But there's definitely a point at which we started considering Star Wars as something more then just a couple of pretty well-made fairytales-in-space* to the point that even the guy who simply says "Look sir, droids!" gets an entire backstory all of his own.   The original trilogy is treated with a degree of reverence that it doesn't really deserve - and a reverence it was never really built for either. Hyperbolic statements like "lore raping" imply that Star Wars has something of a similar level of depth as, say, Tolkien's universe and it really doesn't.

I think it's reverential so far as it's a cultural icon.
The fact that every idiot in the movie has a backstory is either a product of fans with too much time on their hands, or more likely an EU-author tying his story to the main movie in order his own story to have both relevance and legitimacy.  In doing so, authors suck every bit of mystery out of a thing and essentially kill a universe (in my opinion).  Because the more knowable something is, the smaller it becomes.

Great works of art draw upon art that came before it, elements and author experience come together to create something familiar and yet new and exciting. The problem with long-lived franchises is that they no longer look outside for influence but instead start to cannibalise themselves.  Re-cycled stories or worse self-referential stories. Like Star Trek Enterprise creating an episode to explain why Klingons in TOS and TMP/TNG look different.

Stories are also built upon a balance which, when interrupted kills what it's about.  A show like Cheers or any romantic sit-com will often have two people liking one another but not acting upon it, because the moment they get together the show is over.  That's why Ross and Rachel break up in Friends, because the main thread of the show is them not being together.  Similarly,  the original series was so built on the premise that it was a small band of rebels against an unbeatable Empire and JJ Abrams and crew couldn't come up with any other dynamic so they just used the same one. Even though the Rebels won in Jedi they're still poor and outcast in TFA and the Empire is all-powerful.  The Republic, is at best a cameo. Complete non-factor.


*with a few caveats, as I think Return of the Jedi definitely punched below it's weight.

Probably but it's actually my favourite.  Followed by A New Hope.
I can't find Empire to be anything but boring for a good 45 minutes to an hour of the movie even though I know for most SW fans it's their favourite.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
btw, Jonathan McIntosh made this video (clearly written before TLJ premiered) about how the Jedi sucks, and I can't disagree with a single word in it.



It also points to two things in my mind: One, the story within the prequels is actually a good story, two, it sucks that Lucas didn't get that the Jedi were the bad guys in it and went on to execute a pontentially great story so incredibly poorly.

The prequels do show quite well the thing about the Jedi Order and its insane state - it was quite obvious Lucas wasn't trying to portray them as perfect - actually, quite far from perfect. This is pretty much the thing that was interesting in the prequels. It's just that the execution is all over the place there too. But I thought this was pretty obvious when the sequels rolled in.

I disagree with the video on several points, though, and it made me laugh on several occasions. The people who made the video show their own ignorance of real world stuff, which I chalk down to not seeing enough of the world.

Why The Jedi Order ended up the way it is is relatively clear; it's been said that the system has been in place for 1000 generations. It's quite understandable to think the original stuff has been misunderstood, or misinterpreted.

What I think would be interesting would be MP-Ryan shedding some light on how he thinks of the The Jedi Code of Conduct, and whether there are some parallels to the real world police jobs there. I personally think that the Star Wars universe Light side/Dark side dichotomy is likely something every officer of law experiences occasionally.

What it comes to the inhibition of emotions, this is actually a very effective real world military teaching. This is portrayed in contemporary Polish history of Swedish-Finnish dragoons generally not shouting or showing pain when they received mortal wounds. Or Genghis Khan instructing his soldiers to look emotionless in the battle. No anger, not being scared. That sort of enemy appears non-human and disturbing. That's what that is all about. However, this is self-defense and combat related stuff, and should not be applied to normal life. The same stuff is also in the martial arts, you can't get angry, or you run the risk of becoming predictable.

What Luke Skywalker presented was the departure of this Jedi teaching: he allowed his family and friends be more important. The ROTJ ending was about him breaking the strict conduit code of Jedi and presented significant improvement of their personal lives, making them less susceptible for the Dark Side to begin with. He didn't give up on Anakin Skywalker, and that's why I think him trying to kill Ben Solo for far less was very much out of character for Luke. His older self milking some space walrus I actually take to be in-character, he was a farm boy after all... He's been there and done that, which is why I said I interpreted that as he was trying to gauge his student's reaction with that.

Still, Rey doesn't have depth so far, and at this point it would be quite difficult to add any.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
If you want an indepth look at the whole light side/dark side thing and what they mean, you can't do better than just playing through KotOR 2.  It remains, IMO, the best Star Wars story ever told, in spite of all the game's flaws.

If you don't want to do that but have 2 hours to spend watching a youtube video, this looks into it quite well:

« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:16:31 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
btw, Jonathan McIntosh made this video (clearly written before TLJ premiered) about how the Jedi sucks, and I can't disagree with a single word in it.



It also points to two things in my mind: One, the story within the prequels is actually a good story, two, it sucks that Lucas didn't get that the Jedi were the bad guys in it and went on to execute a pontentially great story so incredibly poorly.

Oh, god, I hate McIntosh analyses, he cannot really see nuances in anything, he makes good points a minute then he proceeds to say something utterly stupid or superficial the next because everything must be either "good" or "bad" with no place for "mixed bag" or "flawed" or whatever.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
What I think would be interesting would be MP-Ryan shedding some light on how he thinks of the The Jedi Code of Conduct, and whether there are some parallels to the real world police jobs there. I personally think that the Star Wars universe Light side/Dark side dichotomy is likely something every officer of law experiences occasionally.

The Star Wars mythos is rooted in absolutism.  Any law enforcement person who doesn't quickly learn to see in shades of grey finds a new job pretty quickly.  Luke's story somewhat tackles this issue, but Rey's story has (so far) managed to do a much better job.  Luke is still caught up in the fundamental good versus evil dichotomy trying to redeem Vader, while Rey is much more pragmatic about its actual effects on people (and Yoda gives us the hint that this is what matters).  We see this with the Rey / Ben interactions.  Rey is not so much bothered by the fact that Ben is still a character willing to embrace the dark side, but simply cares that he stop the wanton murder and step away from doing evil things, rather than considering him to need redemption from being evil altogether (which is important because Ben himself is not a purely evil person, despite the awful things he does).  This is part of the reason I really liked TLJ - its trading in much of the good versus evil narrative of the original trilogy that Obi Wan hinted should be thrown out in ANH (and then reversed himself on later, unfortunately) for a Force balance that trades in shades of grey.  Like Aesaar said, this totally follows concepts introduced KOTOR2 (which was fantastic).  Luke is absolutely right - the Jedi are NOT the "good guys."  Rey hasn't figured that out yet, but she has started down the path of pragmatic "goodness" that will lead her to that conclusion.
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Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
What I think would be interesting would be MP-Ryan shedding some light on how he thinks of the The Jedi Code of Conduct, and whether there are some parallels to the real world police jobs there. I personally think that the Star Wars universe Light side/Dark side dichotomy is likely something every officer of law experiences occasionally.

The Star Wars mythos is rooted in absolutism.  Any law enforcement person who doesn't quickly learn to see in shades of grey finds a new job pretty quickly.  Luke's story somewhat tackles this issue, but Rey's story has (so far) managed to do a much better job.  Luke is still caught up in the fundamental good versus evil dichotomy trying to redeem Vader, while Rey is much more pragmatic about its actual effects on people (and Yoda gives us the hint that this is what matters).  We see this with the Rey / Ben interactions.  Rey is not so much bothered by the fact that Ben is still a character willing to embrace the dark side, but simply cares that he stop the wanton murder and step away from doing evil things, rather than considering him to need redemption from being evil altogether (which is important because Ben himself is not a purely evil person, despite the awful things he does).  This is part of the reason I really liked TLJ - its trading in much of the good versus evil narrative of the original trilogy that Obi Wan hinted should be thrown out in ANH (and then reversed himself on later, unfortunately) for a Force balance that trades in shades of grey.  Like Aesaar said, this totally follows concepts introduced KOTOR2 (which was fantastic).  Luke is absolutely right - the Jedi are NOT the "good guys."  Rey hasn't figured that out yet, but she has started down the path of pragmatic "goodness" that will lead her to that conclusion.

I think it's not really that easy, regular use of the dark side changes your psychology for the worst, while the Jedi were utterly paranoid about it they came from a reasonable place especially considering they had an institutional role in the old Republic and probably didn't want to risk having one of their own turning bad and get the republic to go order 66 on their collective arse, a paranoia that reflects on the Ahsoka trial in Clone Wars.
In KOTOR II all the characters that use the dark side have some shade of unhinged, even Kreia loses it at a certain point, what really bugs me about the McIntosh analysis is that he doesn't consider the jedi in the context of the alternative which are either the Sith or not being part of the order (the alternative which the aforementioned Ahsoka takes at a certain point and Obi-Wan considered).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:40:45 am by Det. Bullock »
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The prequels do show quite well the thing about the Jedi Order and its insane state - it was quite obvious Lucas wasn't trying to portray them as perfect - actually, quite far from perfect. This is pretty much the thing that was interesting in the prequels. It's just that the execution is all over the place there too. But I thought this was pretty obvious when the sequels rolled in.

Yes, I agree with that, although as you say, the execution is all over the place, so there are a lot of moments wherein this is not at all obvious. It is obvious that Lucas wanted to portray emotionless buddhist-like paragons of virtue being knights of light vs emotional wrecks full of love and rage as being Sith Lords of Darkness. It's not as obvious that he's judging this dychotomy for being stupid itself. The universe he's built clearly states that Love is something that in some cases will inevitably lead to the Dark Side. Now, I have some beliefs around this. I actually believe this kind of dychotomy comes directly from this bhuddist craze that invaded California some decades ago and is still quite strong. The fact he made Anakin to be a "Jesus Christ figure" is also of some importance, as if he's pinning christian against bhuddist thought, and the end result is the world being shattered.

Quote
What it comes to the inhibition of emotions, this is actually a very effective real world military teaching. This is portrayed in contemporary Polish history of Swedish-Finnish dragoons generally not shouting or showing pain when they received mortal wounds. Or Genghis Khan instructing his soldiers to look emotionless in the battle. No anger, not being scared. That sort of enemy appears non-human and disturbing. That's what that is all about. However, this is self-defense and combat related stuff, and should not be applied to normal life. The same stuff is also in the martial arts, you can't get angry, or you run the risk of becoming predictable.

Yes, it stems from eastern thought, as I said. The problem is that in the prequels it directly affects how Anakin is brought up, being told to bottle his feelings towards his mother and forbidden to love women, etc. So, the criticism towards the Jedi isn't about how they teach the way emotions disturb your fighting ability, but how they disturb your own life, which is incredibly wrong headed, and the way they deal with Anakin evidence 101 of this fact.

I'd also like to mention against your position that when Anakin finally gives in to the Dark Side, he basically becomes Vader and manages to kill a whole lot of Jedi Masters, only Ben besting him in the end. This when he was an emotional train wreck.

Quote
What Luke Skywalker presented was the departure of this Jedi teaching: he allowed his family and friends be more important. The ROTJ ending was about him breaking the strict conduit code of Jedi and presented significant improvement of their personal lives, making them less susceptible for the Dark Side to begin with. He didn't give up on Anakin Skywalker, and that's why I think him trying to kill Ben Solo for far less was very much out of character for Luke.

He was weak for a second. Everyone's weak for a second. Remember, at least compared to Rey, Luke has always been afraid of many things. Fear made him slightly over the edge against Ben, who then went on to take him more seriously than himself and destroyed everything he stood for. **** happens. I don't think this counts as being anti-character at all.


Oh, god, I hate McIntosh analyses, he cannot really see nuances in anything, he makes good points a minute then he proceeds to say something utterly stupid or superficial the next because everything must be either "good" or "bad" with no place for "mixed bag" or "flawed" or whatever.

I tottaly get your emotional reaction, he's specifically terrible on twitter or any other places, but I find his videos well done. Of course, they push his ideas, which are very ... ahh... lopsided, but if you view it as a "case" being done with an argument, then it goes easier on the stomach. I'm sure there are counter arguments, and counter evidences you can bring to the table. As far as I can tell, some details may be off here and there, but his overall analysis is somewhat correct. The uncaring, unfeeling Jedi Order was just too cold and too rigid to deal with someone so emotionally broken as Anakin, thus creating Darth Vader. I wish the movies were more aware of this tension and executed it better. As it stands, it just feels they were just stupid and blind to what was unfolding, like distracted parents not realising they were parenting a future mass murderer.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh, god, I hate McIntosh analyses, he cannot really see nuances in anything, he makes good points a minute then he proceeds to say something utterly stupid or superficial the next because everything must be either "good" or "bad" with no place for "mixed bag" or "flawed" or whatever.

I tottaly get your emotional reaction, he's specifically terrible on twitter or any other places, but I find his videos well done. Of course, they push his ideas, which are very ... ahh... lopsided, but if you view it as a "case" being done with an argument, then it goes easier on the stomach. I'm sure there are counter arguments, and counter evidences you can bring to the table. As far as I can tell, some details may be off here and there, but his overall analysis is somewhat correct. The uncaring, unfeeling Jedi Order was just too cold and too rigid to deal with someone so emotionally broken as Anakin, thus creating Darth Vader. I wish the movies were more aware of this tension and executed it better. As it stands, it just feels they were just stupid and blind to what was unfolding, like distracted parents not realising they were parenting a future mass murderer.

His videos only use a "gentler" tone but the stupidity is all the same, for example Anakin was shown crying not as a sign of weakness but of regret, that's Michael Moore level of manipulation.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
His videos only use a "gentler" tone but the stupidity is all the same, for example Anakin was shown crying not as a sign of weakness but of regret, that's Michael Moore level of manipulation.

That argument is supported by the films though. Over and over, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda warn Anakin that emotional involvement and emotional attachment are bad, that he has to be strong and stoic. When Anakin is shown crying, the film explicitly tells us that this is a bad thing. That this moment of weakness is a part of its journey to the dark side and to evil. McIntosh posits, and the films support, the notion that true Jedi are always operating on a level of stoicism and detachment, that they must not care about individuals. That they must not show even the most basic of emotions, as doing so would weaken them in their fight against the Sith ... who, incidentally, are all about emotion.
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