Author Topic: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)  (Read 6392 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
AMD response to Spectre (they say risk for AMD chips for the two Spectre attacks is "zero, and almost-zero" because of the way their processors are designed - we'll see):

Until I see independent confirmation I suspect that's bull****, because there's no obvious fatal flaw in the processor design that Spectre requires (unlike Intel not checking for page faults during speculative execution) and the security researchers explicitly said AMD chips are vulnerable.

Edit: every analysis of Spectre I've read basically says the same thing: it requires only speculative execution, memory caching and access to a precise timer, to bypass software bounds checks and read the entire memory space. The upshot of this is that malicious Javascript on a webpage you visit can now read passwords stored elsewhere in your browser process' memory, though I believe mitigations against this specific vulnerability have already been deployed to the major browsers.

My hot take on this, so far, is this: this won't result in any big hack-the-planet scenarios, the same way the last half dozen giant vulnerabilities present in half the computing world didn't either. The most visible effect is probably going to be a) the giant PR ****storm for Intel and their reactions to it; and b) the technical fallout from Spectre turning the world of CPU architecture upside down.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:24:37 pm by Phantom Hoover »
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Offline jr2

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Quote from: MitoPL link=topic=94335.msg1861324#msg1861324
BTW, what's about that MOS thing? What did you refer to?

That was just me getting tasty cause I thought someone was calling me technically illiterate.  It's (was) my occupational specialty in the Marines.  Doesn't mean I'm a genius, or a specialist in every field covered, but it does mean I'm at least semi-competent.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Windows patches are available as of yesterday.  If it's not deploying, check your antivirus.  Some interfere; I had to uninstall Avast, install the update, then reinstall Avast to get the version that supported the update.
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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
So I was planning on joining the current decade and getting my first smart phone within the next week or so.  Is this thread telling me I need to wait for a new generation that won't be affected by this bug now?
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Offline The E

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
So I was planning on joining the current decade and getting my first smart phone within the next week or so.  Is this thread telling me I need to wait for a new generation that won't be affected by this bug now?

No. This bug is going to stay relevant for a few years; Chip design has such long lead times for redesigns that would mitigate these issues that it's going to take some time for chips that do not suffer from these issues to hit the markets. If you can wait another 2 or 3 years, you'll probably be able to get a fixed phone.
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Offline Novachen

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Well, at least i was already thinking about if i should upgrade my i7-2600k.

Yes it seems so. Maybe i should pick up one of the newer models that have the speed with spectre of my 2600k without Spectre. And in a few years i can buy a really brand new CPU that have the original speed again ;).
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Offline rev_posix

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Well, at least i was already thinking about if i should upgrade my i7-2600k.

Yes it seems so. Maybe i should pick up one of the newer models that have the speed with spectre of my 2600k without Spectre. And in a few years i can buy a really brand new CPU that have the original speed again ;).
IKR?  I was recently looking at finally upgrading from my 2600K, but now I'm not so sure if I should wait it out or make the move over to Zen (threadripper, yum....)  ;7
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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
OK, somebody give me the tl;dr.

For an average gamer who doesn't notice when his CPU is struggling or not to keep up with any given game, who is just fine with the stock cooler that came with it, will this problem cause any noticeable effect?

 

Offline Mito [PL]

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Inb4 the video I linked (near the end of the 1st page). Short version: No, it seems your gaming performance won't be affected, with some exceptions (like Fortnite mentioned before). Although I'm not sure how the overall snappyness of your operating system will look like, there's a possibility that it might be impacted (I heard that lots of stuff in newer Windows version tends to use virtualisation), although that isn't a 100% sure thing.
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Offline The E

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
OK, somebody give me the tl;dr.

For an average gamer who doesn't notice when his CPU is struggling or not to keep up with any given game, who is just fine with the stock cooler that came with it, will this problem cause any noticeable effect?

And to expand on what Mito said: Most single-player games without a large multiplayer component are going to be unaffected, but once you hit massive multiplayer stuff (like Fortnite, PUBG or MMOs), you're going to see the experience get worse, because the db servers and virtual servers those games need just got much more resource-hungry.
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Offline Novachen

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Well, there are some games that needs more a good CPU instead of other good hardware. Games like Supreme Commander or Football Manager should be affected by this much more.

If you play SupCom on big maps with thousands of units or Football Manager with a big database and some leagues, the difference should be noticeable, especially if we are talking about a power loss up to 30%.

Even this games are one of very few exceptions that needs a very good CPU on the user end.
Even Ashes of Singularity has lesser CPU demands, because AoS does not calculate every single projectile as SupCom does which was able to occupy my 2600k easily in bigger battles... maybe i can play this Game only with some hundreds less units, now ^^.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:43:56 am by Novachen »
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Offline The E

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Well, there are some games that needs more a good CPU. Games like Supreme Commander or Football Manager should be affected by this much more.

If you play SC on big maps with thousands of units or Football Manager with a big database and some leagues, the difference should be noticeable.

Even this games are one of very few exceptions that needs a good CPU on the user end.
Even Ashes of Singularity has lesser CPU demands, because AoS does not calculate every single projectile as SC does.

I don't think so. Remember that meltdown affects syscalls, which for games means disk IO more than anything else. Since games, as a rule, do not do disk IO in their performance-critical loops, they shouldn't be affected too much. You might see increased level load times in a few titles, but those generally aren't an issue; even streaming titles like large open-world games aren't going to see much of a performance degradation (since those titles are built to run well off of slow HDDs).

The performance issues seen in PUBG, for example (like the sudden proliferation of issues related to retrieving player models and names), are exclusively happening on the server side (PUBG seems to have a strict timeout for retrieving player data, and the lowered db performance seems to result in said retrieval failing more often now).
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Offline jr2

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
I heard PCI-E SSDs see a big impact (as they're fast enough to have the effect noticeable).

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
I heard PCI-E SSDs see a big impact (as they're fast enough to have the effect noticeable).

Not the case with my Lenovo Legion.  Performance is not noticeably affected.

What I did find, however, is the latest security updates have finally killed my ability to use my old Auzentech Prelude 7.1 in a Windows 10 environment permanently.  I've had to use a heavily-modded Win8 driver since installing 10 originally, and now even that is outright failing and either refusing to load or causing serious system problems (BSODs).  Sigh.  The onboard quality, even on an Asus mobo, really is inferior :(
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Offline jr2

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
Interesting article: (runnung into a predecessor of Meltdown / Spectre on the tri-core XBox 360)

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/01/07/finding-a-cpu-design-bug-in-the-xbox-360/

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
I heard PCI-E SSDs see a big impact (as they're fast enough to have the effect noticeable).

Not the case with my Lenovo Legion.  Performance is not noticeably affected.

What I did find, however, is the latest security updates have finally killed my ability to use my old Auzentech Prelude 7.1 in a Windows 10 environment permanently.  I've had to use a heavily-modded Win8 driver since installing 10 originally, and now even that is outright failing and either refusing to load or causing serious system problems (BSODs).  Sigh.  The onboard quality, even on an Asus mobo, really is inferior :(

My X-Fi XtremeMusic is still holding on in Windows 7.  What's finally going to get it is whenever the next time I have to upgrade the motherboard, it's almost certainly not going to have a regular PCI slot for it.  Now if only my Logitech z906 speakers hadn't crapped out just a little bit past the 2 year warranty...
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Offline jr2

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Re: Intel users, prepare for a 5-30 % slowdown (NOT microcode patchable)
I heard PCI-E SSDs see a big impact (as they're fast enough to have the effect noticeable).

Not the case with my Lenovo Legion.  Performance is not noticeably affected.

What I did find, however, is the latest security updates have finally killed my ability to use my old Auzentech Prelude 7.1 in a Windows 10 environment permanently.  I've had to use a heavily-modded Win8 driver since installing 10 originally, and now even that is outright failing and either refusing to load or causing serious system problems (BSODs).  Sigh.  The onboard quality, even on an Asus mobo, really is inferior :(

Quick Googling to find:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1622263/auzentech-x-fi-prelude-7-1-windows-10-drivers

Which after some conversation about bad links in the thread leads to:

http://danielkawakami.blogspot.com/

I've heard of Daniel K drivers before, on the topic of getting my old SoundBlaster X-Fi (or somesuch) (EDIT: just remembered, it was a Sound Blaster Audigy Live!  IIRC) working on Windows 7 when Creative dropped the ball on them as well.  (I've sinced moved on to a new PC, and haven't gotten a sound card yet -- not sure if I'm going to, I'm using the Logitech G933 headset, which has its own USB sound card.  (Unless I'm mistaken and it's still using the on-board sound and piping it back up the USB?!)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:12:45 am by jr2 »