[Blaise Russel]

There are obvious reasons why only the Lucifer had beams, the main one probably being: the Lucifer is an important ship, around which the entire game revolves, and thus deserves special attributes to mark it out - such as invulnerable shields and city-destroying, destroyer-carvin' photon beam cannons.

The in-game reason I like to use is that the Lucifer's accompaniment wasn't obselete, or less advanced than their FS2 counterparts, but what it was - an accompaniment. The ships were designed for the role of escorting the Lucifer and beam weaponry was sacrificed for hull strength and durability or whatever. The FS2 capital ships, however, were designed to function alone or in small groups and thus required the 'punch' a beam cannon would provide (apart from the Sathanas fleet and possibly the Ravana's group in the nebula, there doesn't appear to be much cohesion in the Shivans encountered in FS2).



'Course, it's weak (because it's retrofitting the universe to fit the games, and because we haven't seen any real evidence of such 'specialisation' in the Shivan armada) but what are you going to do?

[Nuke]

i still maintain that the lucefer fleet was in a long term (and i mean by tens of thousands of years) patrol of the galaxy keeping an eye on up and coming speicies and doing away with them as nessisary. and the ships used were of ancient construction. at least by 8000 years according to cannon, assuming that it was the same lucifer. somwhere along those lines the shivans decided to change their combat philosophy from a good defence is the best offense, to a good offence is the best defence.

my other idea is that shivans are on some kind of honor system, like the clans in battletech, and will not engage an enemy with too vastly superior weapon systems. this is consistant with the fact that the shivans didnt do an all system sweep of all gtva systems with its sathanas fleet.

[karajorma]

I don't see much point in a long term patrol when the Shivans could probably reach any place in the galaxy within a week.

[phatosealpha]

Personally, I kinda figure the FS1 and FS2 shivans weren't the same subgroups.  The FS1 shivans were the shivan equivalent of religious nuts, out to purify the galaxy and all that nice stuff.  They just didn't have full scale access to the full range of tech like the FS2 shivans, who are the shivan government type, do.  They put all their eggs in one big basket, and cut costs elsewhere.  When the lucy got blowed up, they were in for it.

The FS2 shivans were the government, and had the money to put beams on everything.  Probably explains why they weren't quite so fanatical about blowing us up - sure they did it, but never with the same passion the FS1 shivans did.

[Ghostavo]

"And they are wondering... what happened to their scouting party!"

[Fade Rathnik]

Originally posted by karajorma
I don't see much point in a long term patrol when the Shivans could probably reach any place in the galaxy within a week.

Hey when you were driving to work this morning can you remember the color of the 4th sedan you passed parked on the road? That is a small detail in an otherwise vast sea of details. The Difference in the subspace and gravitational field is likely a subtle detail in the greater scheme of things the ability to sense subspace activity more than likely can't have unlimited range and accuracy. Likely any distortions would be confined to directly affected and nearby gravitational fields. They could be sensing thru the galactic field, but that likely to weak a signal to decode with any precision. That puts them with in say X number of sectors of space cubed. Then they have to narrow it down.  Traveling takes time still and the node network sounds very unpredictable over all even for Shivans, who can travel likely weaker nodes than the GTVA, thus more routes possible but there are possible hazards to this.

Hey are all the GTVA systems in the same arm of this galaxy?
If they are, are they all systems that are next to each other?
Or are they just near by each other but with other systems in between the systems on the node network that aren’t on the node network?

[FireCrack]

I'd say that the fleet in FS1 with the exception with the lucifer was designed to be "cheap". The shivans knew (or thaught they knew, they werent counting on the discovery of the ancients records) that the small attack team would be enough. The lucifer was only in the fleet for command andd heavy orbital bombardment purposes.

[Taristin]

Anyone reading 'World War; In the Balance"?

Could be that the shivans simply underestimated us when they made initial scans of us.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Fade Rathnik
Hey when you were driving to work this morning can you remember the color of the 4th sedan you passed parked on the road? That is a small detail in an otherwise vast sea of details. The Difference in the subspace and gravitational field is likely a subtle detail in the greater scheme of things the ability to sense subspace activity more than likely can't have unlimited range and accuracy. Likely any distortions would be confined to directly affected and nearby gravitational fields. They could be sensing thru the galactic field, but that likely to weak a signal to decode with any precision. That puts them with in say X number of sectors of space cubed. Then they have to narrow it down.  Traveling takes time still and the node network sounds very unpredictable over all even for Shivans, who can travel likely weaker nodes than the GTVA, thus more routes possible but there are possible hazards to this.

I don't understand what you're getting at. My point is why would the shivans be on an 8000 year long patrol when they could end their tour of duty and retrace their route back home within a week or less. Long deep space patrols make sense when you have an FTL system that takes a while to get somewhere and therefore a long time to get back.

Considering how quickly the shivans could have returned to their homeworld it doesn't make sense that they would deliberately have remain out of contact with the rest of their species for so long.

If the Lucifer had been away from the homeword for 8000 years I can only think of a few reasons that would make sense.

1) They couldn't return due to a broken node
2) They are a seperate group of shivans that aren't allowed near homeworld.

(I use the term homeworld very lightly. I simply mean contact with the other shivans sufficient for upgrades).

[Nuke]

Originally posted by karajorma
I don't see much point in a long term patrol when the Shivans could probably reach any place in the galaxy within a week.

shivans are nomadic in nature, they have no bases, they essentially roam the galaxy. so thats consistant with my theary. the lucifer is known to be 8000 years old. aso it all kinda corelates.

Originally posted by karajorma


I don't understand what you're getting at. My point is why would the shivans be on an 8000 year long patrol when they could end their tour of duty and retrace their route back home within a week or less. Long deep space patrols make sense when you have an FTL system that takes a while to get somewhere and therefore a long time to get back.

Considering how quickly the shivans could have returned to their homeworld it doesn't make sense that they would deliberately have remain out of contact with the rest of their species for so long.

If the Lucifer had been away from the homeword for 8000 years I can only think of a few reasons that would make sense.

1) They couldn't return due to a broken node
2) They are a seperate group of shivans that aren't allowed near homeworld.

(I use the term homeworld very lightly. I simply mean contact with the other shivans sufficient for upgrades).

also remember the shivans didnt really have a way back to the nebula. its possible the ancients broke that node to stop them from pouring in. and then fought the ones that were already in there systems. its probibly the building of those portals that put up the kill me flag for the shivans to see.

with there relationship to subspace, its feasable that the shivans are harmed by the portals, being the reason for commiting genocide against the ancients. so the systems beyond the subspace portals in the system from into the lions den is probibly the origin of the shivans. noone knows how many of those portals they built and how far the artifitially stabilized node network goes. the ancients seem to have invaded of worlds according to the monologs, yet we only find ruins belonging to the ancients.

its logical to assume the shivans were encountered beyond the portals because they indicate the direction in wich the ancients explored space. perhaps the ancients encountered sathani, that would explain the nebula beyond gamma draconis

so i bet the lucifer fleet was isolated, and was probibly on the search for a path home. freespace doesnt say much about the amount of scanning required to find a node, it mght be something you have to be on top of to actually detect. its probibly a process of jump to a system, spend several years scanning for nodes and move on. the ruins we found could have been a distant outpost and the ancients attempted to flee in this direction deactivated the gamma draconis portal and blasted the node, but not until after a small number of ships got through. of course it was enough t decimate the ancients. the shivans didnt attempt to reactivate the portal, or just didnt care to, and being isolated from the resources the other shivans had, didnt have fully developed beam weapons. only two on a ship full of reactors, seems like they werenew  tech at the time of the lucifers design.

[Kie99]

I think the Lucifer Fleet was a bunch of Genocidal Terrorists, who were exiled from the Shivan fleet in weapon free ships.  They converted their reactors to make beams on their main ship (Lucifer) and gave it an inpenetrable shield.  THey then went on a killing spree, but got beat by the GTA and PVE.  When the Rakshasa came through the node the crew of the Vigilanté thought "oh shite! Shivans!" and fired on the Shivans.  They Shivans retaliated, but the Carthage and Dashor destroyed the Rakshasa.  The Shivans got pissed and decided to teach the GTVA a lesson by sending in the Sathanas, then we destroyed that before it had even razed a planet!  They decided to lay the ultimate smackdown by sending in 80 Saths, but then Bosch told them of the great misunderstanding that had occured.  The Saths decided to use a slingshot subspace effect to get back home so they sent Capella nova.  They considered the deaths of the few refugees a last act of Vengance.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Nuke
shivans are nomadic in nature, they have no bases, they essentially roam the galaxy. so thats consistant with my theary. the lucifer is known to be 8000 years old. aso it all kinda corelates.

I have no problem with that possibility.  Saying that the shutdown of the knossos trapped them is also fine. My problem is with the theory that they would send a bunch of shivan ships away from the main group for 8000 years and let them get horribly out of date even though they could have easily returned to the main shivan collective. .

[NGTM-1R]

They might have been outdated because they were a reserve or possibly even a "Home Guard" type of fleet. They were, after all, dealing with a section of the galaxy the Shivans have already pacified once.

[Mefustae]

Another plausable theory to go along with the whole Nomad angle, and that of the different design and technological aspects of the two Shivan armadas encountered, is that the Shivans are simply extremely Tribal in nature...

...Basically, they just wander the Galaxy/Universe in totally seperate tribes, raiding Space-Faring civilisations to aquire resources and/or fuel for their respective Fleets, almost the exact opposite of the GTVA. This fits nicely with the different looking design and technology of the two armadas. The Lucifer Fleet could have simply been a smaller Nomad Fleet that happened upon the GTA & PVN, an inveritable plethora of resources to feed their fledgling fleet. How this Fleet survived for so long, good ol' Luci of course. This also explains the colour of Luci's Beams being different from that of the Nebular Armada's, and of course her Shileds; which could both be a product of a technological progression that was once unified, but at one time became seperated...

...Keeping that in mind, the Second Shivan Fleet encountered in the Nebula would have been simply a different, considerably more powerful and advanced Tribe, likely the dominant one in the Galaxy/Universe, hence the slightly different designs of their ships and the widespread use of Beam Technology. Sure, they didn't have those funky Cap-Shields so they couldn't really call themselves basically 'Invincible', but with a Fleet like that, who's gonna argue? No one, that's who...

...Yeah, so basically, i'm going with the old arguement that, while the two fleets were of the same Species, they were of two different groups/tribes, thus explaining why the technology wielded by them was in essence the same, and yet at the same time, vastly different...

Edit; ...Lupus Nebula...uh...what's...what's that?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Mefustae
the Second Shivan Fleet encountered in the Lupus Nebula

There's absolutely no canon info on which nebula the Shivans were encountered in. Be careful about taking stuff from the Shivan Manifesto as canon.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by karajorma


I don't buy that argument. gave the Lucifer pseudo-beams in FS1. They could as easily have given all the other shivan caps the same weapons if they had wanted to.

I don't have too much of a problem with beams. Maybe the Lucifer was only recently fitted with beams and sent on a shakedown genocide in FS1.

There is no evidence that the shivans had beams when they killed the ancients. Beams could be as new to the shivans as they are to the terrans.


What bugs me is why the lucifers shielding system was never seen again and even that can be explained away if we assume that beams can penetrate it and that beams are new.

I do belive one of hte BC ani's said that it was evident that the planet of hte ancients was allso destroyed by the Lucifer...

[Prophet]

In FS1. The Vasudan dudes who got stranded and found the ruins also said that the planet was most certainly destroyed by Shivan weapons. Now they had seen only one planet destroyed by the Shivans, and that was Vasuda prime. Hence we can assume that Lucifer destroyed both planets.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
"And they are wondering... what happened to their scouting party!"

In the FreeSpace 2's box, there's a sentence similar to this.

[speculation]If this can be interpreted as canon, this would mean the Lucifer fleet's role is scouting the galaxy in search of "hostile" lifeforms.

With reinforcements a long way, the LF may have decided to wage war by itself against the GTA and the PVE, seeing they were weak foes and they had the "ultimate" weapon on their side, the Lucifer.[/speculation]

Surprise, the shivans were defeated after Alpha 1 single handedly destroyed the Lucifer as well as several other warships.

[heavy speculation]The reasons for the fleet not having beam weapons may have been, ironically, for story telling reasons than gameplay, engine or otherwise.

How did they set the SD Lucifer apart from every other capital ship in the game? By giving it invincible shields, by being the only one of it's class encountered, etc, etc, etc, AND by giving it a weapon of unprecedented power, unmatched (I assume) in the entire game, a weapon of it's own. Would the Lucifer be feared in the same way if every other Shivan capital ship had a weaker, yet similar weapon? They had to make the ship unique, and so they did, at the cost of continuity.[/heavy speculation]

[psycho_fergo]

hmm, this has been said on a few so i wont quote directly..

it has been said that the shivans have no "homeworld" and such...but you have yet to prove how the hell they got enough recources for the jugernought fleet...let alone anything else they have built...i dont think mining asteroids quite cuts it and i wouldnt think nebular gas would quite give you the raw elements needed for this kind of production.

i know that it is something hard to believe but there has to be some feisable (im a shocking speller) reason for this. unless you follow some kind of derelict path and say that the ships are living kinda and they are made in subspace like babies..hee...

also the fact that it says something about the shivens beaing created from another race....this may explain the ships and technology and stuff.....since this race might build everything for them..and could be this.."hive mind". it could symply be the built army of another race that wants to kick everyone elses buts in the universe...when thier shiven buddys clear out a system..and move on and are asured of not being pushed back, thier "masters" might expand into that system for recources and such.

also after watching the acient monologs...they said somthing about expending all of thier usable recources and stuff....if this is true..then they would have had masive fleets and so on...thinking they would focus on military to wipe aways the little other races...this means that the shiven empire must be wither totally HUGE to have the amount of recources it has..or it couold support the subspace theory....

and as a last crazy thought...what if subspace is like a tree...with lots of roots....and it give birth to the shivens whenever annoying pests desterb its roots..(these being the intrasystem jump nodes)

[/end of idiots views]

[aldo_14]

Shivans don't need a homeworld for building ships; just a world (or several).  It's not beyond the Shivans capabilities to destroy a planet, IMO, if they have a fleet able to destroy a star.

There's also a hell of a lot more asteroids in the galaxy than you maybe imagine; tens of thousands along in the Solar Systems (not very dense) belt, including 220-odd that are larger than 100km across (the largest known is 1000km).

Ultimately, the Shivan fleet can be built under the old high technology=magic adage.  There might not be currently a conceivable or physically possible way to build a fleet by harvesting nebular gas, but that doesn't preclude it from science fiction.