[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
I do belive one of hte BC ani's said that it was evident that the planet of hte ancients was allso destroyed by the Lucifer...

Yeah but who says that those were actually  Lucifer beams? For all we know the shivans dragged in a 30km long planet killer to do the work because they hadn't yet figured out how to make beams into something they could mount on something the Lucifers size.

There is nothing except for circumstancial evidence that the Lucifer was involved in the destruction of the Ancients homeworld.

Hell, to be honest there's very little evidence that the shivans were even involved themself. For all we know they could have simply killed off the Great Destroyers and nicked their ships. Or they could have stumbled across the deralicts of the original fleet and takne them over themselves. I don't believe that but there's no evidence that it's wrong.

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by karajorma
Hell, to be honest there's very little evidence that the shivans were even involved themself. For all we know they could have simply killed off the Great Destroyers and nicked their ships. Or they could have stumbled across the deralicts of the original fleet and takne them over themselves. I don't believe that but there's no evidence that it's wrong.

Interesting.

So when the Shivans nuked Capella, they really could be running from someone. The Real Great Destroyers...

[psycho_fergo]

hahah...intersting theory...

i probably would like to run into anything the shivens are running from....that could be a little.....lets just say...ALPHA 1...destroy as many things as you can...but command, there is too many deathstars here...i cant possibly.....do what you have to pilot...*turns on cheats* MWUHAHAHAHAHA*dies*

get what i mean....

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by karajorma


Yeah but who says that those were actually  Lucifer beams? For all we know the shivans dragged in a 30km long planet killer to do the work because they hadn't yet figured out how to make beams into something they could mount on something the Lucifers size.

There is nothing except for circumstancial evidence that the Lucifer was involved in the destruction of the Ancients homeworld.

Hell, to be honest there's very little evidence that the shivans were even involved themself. For all we know they could have simply killed off the Great Destroyers and nicked their ships. Or they could have stumbled across the deralicts of the original fleet and takne them over themselves. I don't believe that but there's no evidence that it's wrong.

Well, the only other world destroyed by Shivans was Vasuda Prime (destroyed by Lucifer's beams), and the scientists on Altair were Vasudans.
When tehy saw the destruction Altar what did they compare it to? Vasuda of course...

Now, Shivans could have used another ship with same beam weaponry as Lucifer, but that is less likely..

[FireCrack]

Hmm, this thread just spurred upon me a possibility for the shivans destroying capella.


Possibly they got the star to superonava in such a way that the valuble materials would all be fairly concentrated in a spot?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Well, the only other world destroyed by Shivans was Vasuda Prime (destroyed by Lucifer's beams), and the scientists on Altair were Vasudans.
When tehy saw the destruction Altar what did they compare it to? Vasuda of course...

Now, Shivans could have used another ship with same beam weaponry as Lucifer, but that is less likely..

Not when you take things as a whole. If you say that the Shivans definately used the Lucifer to bombard the ancients then you have to explain why only the lucifer had beams in FS1.

Personally I like the planet killer theory. It doesn't demystify the Shivans anywhere near as much as any of the others.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by karajorma

Hell, to be honest there's very little evidence that the shivans were even involved themself. For all we know they could have simply killed off the Great Destroyers and nicked their ships. Or they could have stumbled across the deralicts of the original fleet and takne them over themselves. I don't believe that but there's no evidence that it's wrong.

Hmm...perhaps the Shivans are not even a single species.

Borrowing Bosch's analogy, the nine cities of Troy have been destroyed by nine different groups, using the same ships. Each time, they have destroyed all there is to destroy, conquered all there is to conquer, and then dissolved under the weight of their own weaponry; with no one else left they have turned on each other, or they have been on the offensive so long, become so dependant on acquiring new resources and territory, that when the conquests run out they collapse within a few generations.

Then one of the next species to evolve to sentience finds the remains of the last batch of Shivans, and sees that they can conquer the galaxy. And they go off to do so. Shivan technology would seem to be at the least easier to reverse-engineer then the norm, and given their vast numbers the Shivans' ships and weaponry might well also be easily mass-produced. Whoever gets to their tech and weapons first has a decisive advantage.

At least until they run into the GTA/PVE.

Following that logic, it would seem possible that the Shivans who wiped out the Ancients, the Lucifer fleet, and the Sathanas fleet may not even be the same people.

[karajorma]

I don't think a new Shivan race could evolve in 8000 years but apart from that it is a possibilty.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma
I don't think a new Shivan race could evolve in 8000 years but apart from that it is a possibilty.

It might not have to; perhaps the mechanical component of Shivans (as individuals) is unchanging, and the organic part can vary.

NB: the fs reference bible implies that the Shivans had multiple shielded capital ships; " In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace.  The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down.  ".

Worth noting that this little bit of the text (below the quoted) implied a few missions were cut from FS1; namely to retrieve technology from the Shivans and HoL to build the tracking device.

[Flipside]

This raises the thought in me that we think so much about where subspace nodes arrive, but don't think much about when they arrive. Theres always the possibility that the Lucifer could be 8000 years old and still a brand new ship in the Shivan armada

[aldo_14]

Time travel is a really ****ty way to resolve problems, IMO.  Too lazy; it means you've come up with a storyline without thnking of a good way to end it.  So I'd hope that wasn't a factor in the FS1/2 storyline.

[Nuke]

the lucifer seems to be to be a prototype ship. new advancements with new advances in beams and shields, the shivans probibly tried to implement them into a destroyer. then the shivans learn that the ship is a bad idea. and thus stop making them.

i come to the conclusion that its a prototype because first, it only has 2 beam cannons. which means because they were new, they were total power whores and not the super effietiend bfreds we all know and love. also cannon suggest beams are not powered by the ships main reactor. "commence plasma core insertion."  i take it this means that beam cannons use there own energy source, theese plasma cores and do not rely on reactors, none the less lucifer's set would have still been a power drain..

secondly the reactors being so close to the ship exterior, as if they were just bolted on to help power the shield. sathani and deamons are big hulking beasts with plenty of interior space to house reactors, the lucifer is a long and slender ship, which means it was never designed to have reactors strung along the hull like christmas lights.

the references to "key ships" could mean there was a second lucy. its feasable that this lucifer was destroyed by the ancients in the nebula->gamma draconis node, which would explain the node being inactive. a second lucifer, which had already made the crossing delt the final blow to the ancients.

the lucifer can be tracked in subspace, it has big whopping reactors that dont take much to destroy. when they die its usually in subspace and will do severe damage to subspace. the loss of a subspace node would be a devistating loss for the shivans (more so if they have a religious obseesion with subspace and its protection). so if the lucifer was a prototype or new model, and turned out to be a failure in the shivans eyes. much as early russian nuclear subs were prone to catastrophic failure. the shivans backed off and decided huge strapped on reactors were a bad idea, and rethought the integration of the new technology.

the lucifer fleet = how the shivans were 8000 years ago
the sathanas fleet = how the shivans are now

[Bobboau]

my theory has always been they didn't want us to get the technology, so they only put it on the one invincable super ship

I've also had some other interesting Shivan theories, one was similar to the Shivan technological grabbag theory.
that the anchent destroyers did not actualy destroy the anchents, but that the anchents won, and 8,000 years later now they are the destroyers, untill they get into a fight with us, and after we take them on we will eventualy become the next Shivans.
I don't follow that theory, and never realy did, but I always thought it was a fun one.

current theory of the Shivans, they are simply infinite as far as we are able to see, controleing vast swaths of the universe (note I didn't say galixy, and oh, yes I know what I'm saying) lets say something like 2% of all mater in the universe is Shivan technolody, dyson sphere like power suplys built around induced black holes. we are insects to them, the ships we've been fighting are construction equipment, designed not to destroy, but to fine tune the galixie's naturaly caotic gravity/subspace feild and enableing them to make stableized contact with the real Shivan armada. think about it, what if the Sathanus is the shivan eqivilent of a garden rake? they arived in the milkyway sevral hundred thousand years ago and have been reshapeing it into something a little more conducive to inter galactic subspace travle.

[Hippo]

Originally posted by Bobboau
my theory has always been they didn't want us to get the technology, so they only put it on the one invincable super ship
 

did anyone read my post?

[Bobboau]

I skimmed

[Charismatic]

I barely skimmed.


If the lucy wa 8000 years old, and the Sathys are the now shivans, that would be a majior insult.

They would have a shield on the sathy by then.

They had one lucy, with beams that would kill off home worlds and defeat all enemy force. They didnt have a need for many beammed ships. With the invincible lucy the destroyed many a worlds. Tho the other ships were older classes, because they did not really need the newer oens to defeat enemies.

The ancients are the only 'super big and great' species we know of to date. The shivans took them out without a prob. Killed not just their homeworld but all of their worlds. We, through the knoloage of the Ancients, took out the Lucy, and their fleet.

We were the first ones to give them a challenge, a scare, if you will. We kept adapting and defeathing (while getting our Areses kicked). Colossus came, we defeated their greatest warship to Their date. The Sathanis. They had a fleet of them. I beleive they ran.
And with the running theory: The 'shivans_dont_think_like_we_do, and we_never_realised_their_stratagy_or_movemets' statement. Well they could either just be going somewhere, or doing what they want for no good reason, or, they could be running. Knowing we dont now how they think could support both theories.

Anyone have a fix on how big or far this supernova was? How big did it get? What was its reach?

[Nuke]

the fact that the shivans were aware of the portal technology and didnt use it to get reinforcements to the lucifer fleet seems to confirm that shivans have a religious attachment to subspace. it seems that they consider it sacrilidge to tamper with subspace. it would also explain why we did not encounter a lucifer in fs3. they are just too harmfull to the subspace domain or whatever.

[karajorma]

Or that they didn't know how to turn the portal on.

[NGTM-1R]

Surely they could have figured it out...they've had a long time to stare at the thing and wonder, you know...

[karajorma]

Depends if Bosch was digging in Deneb for a password rather than an on switch then there would have been no way to turn it on.