[Kosh]

He's attacking bad DRM that will screw over your system and possibly interfere with the game's proper functioning, such as SecuROM and Starforce, and defending good forms of DRM, which are incentives for people to legally purchase the game by offering benefits, like in the case of Sins of a Solar Empire (yes, updates only through Impulse is a form of DRM), and with EA offering free DLC to purchasers.

Pirating games that have a relative lack of DRM will only convince the boardroom suits that people will keep trying to pirate no matter how good the incentives to buy are, so they will think they have to put more and more DRM on to protect the bottom line.

So trying to restrict resale is "good"?

[SpardaSon21]

Compared to SecuROM and Starforce, it is a dream come true.

[DarkBasilisk]

Pirating in this case means "not buying". Surely someone with your education level should have been able to deduce that. I stated many times I do intent to legally buy games that satisfy my stated requirements. I also gave clear parameters for what goes on the list.

Pirating at best is the immature version of boycotting, i.e. being willing to stick it to the company but wanting to cheat the system instead of taking any losses on your part. It's kinda hard to believe people feel so strongly about these arguments against DRM if they're not willing to sacrifice anything in protest, almost like it's a flimsy rationalization or something...

It's like I said : pirating will never change anything positively because even if there's rating bombing on amazon or people leaving graffiti on EA's walls, there's no actual reports corporate execs can look at and say "ok if we removed DRM, these people would definitely start buying from us... maybe." As much as you might have a few people's remarks reaching their ears, you have cases like the Indy Bundle piracy to show people some idiots are just going to always pirate stuff anyways.

[Aardwolf]

Well there's that thing radiohead did with that one album, instead of selling it they just took donations and it was awesomeprofitz

[General Battuta]

Pirating in this case means "not buying". Surely someone with your education level should have been able to deduce that. I stated many times I do intent to legally buy games that satisfy my stated requirements. I also gave clear parameters for what goes on the list.

No, pirating in this case is 'not buying, but not having the spine or moral fiber to actually forego the product, and therefore resorting to illegal means and justifying it.'

In the end it just seems like you want to be able to pirate things. You're just rationalizing cheating, and you don't give a crap about DRM - your list excludes most titles from the days before DRM ever became an issue.

You've been the one defending them. Pick your poison is not a choice.

If you think that, you have the sensitivity to nuance of Glenn Beck and the intellectual capacity of his footwear.

Well there's that thing radiohead did with that one album, instead of selling it they just took donations and it was awesomeprofitz

That was tried with the Indie Bundle and World of Goo (I believe). It failed colossally.

[DarkBasilisk]

That was tried with the Indie Bundle and World of Goo (I believe). It failed colossally.

Yea, the only time the donation scheme has really works that I know of is with Dwarf Fortress. And that's because we're a fanatical fan base (I think someone donated 5k at one point), and he's made it clear that our monthly donates are paying for his groceries and such

[Kosh]

No, pirating in this case is 'not buying, but not having the spine or moral fiber to actually forego the product, and therefore resorting to illegal means and justifying it.'

In the end it just seems like you want to be able to pirate things. You're just rationalizing cheating, and you don't give a crap about DRM - your list excludes most titles from the days before DRM ever became an issue.

If you gave someone a gun, and then they tried to shoot you with it, wouldn't you try to take it back? The superior morals arguement, not surprising. Of course if you actually knew me better you wouldn't make such bull**** accusations.

If you think that, you have the sensitivity to nuance of Glenn Beck and the intellectual capacity of his footwear.

And you have the reasoning capability of a frog.


You know instead of making personal attacks and alledging your moral superiority, why don't you actually do something to resolve this? All I've seen you do is try to promote just another form of DRM instead of actually push for its abolition all together. If you can put together the kind of boycott I am talking about below, I'll give up piracy permenantly. Here's your chance, surprise me.

Pirating at best is the immature version of boycotting, i.e. being willing to stick it to the company but wanting to cheat the system instead of taking any losses on your part. It's kinda hard to believe people feel so strongly about these arguments against DRM if they're not willing to sacrifice anything in protest, almost like it's a flimsy rationalization or something...

You want to know what will make me stop? If there was a large scale boycott of all games with DRM, I'm talking about millions of gamers coming together to stand up and say no to it all. If that happened I would join in and stop. But that isn't happening. I'm not going to sacrifice unless I know it is actually going to do any good. Right now it's just me against them and their shills. Pointless sacrifice has never won any conflict.

[Liberator]

If there was a large scale boycott of all games with DRM, I'm talking about millions of gamers coming together to stand up and say no to it all.

What would happen is the small companies that have EVERYTHING invested in selling their one game that is better than anything else and completely worth buying would go out of business because they would likely have a publishing deal with EA or THQ or someone.

[Scotty]

I've gotta ask: what the **** are you talking about when you say 'gamer's rights?'  What rights?  You pay for a privilege.  And now you're *****ing because somebody changed the privileges a bit.  The only bit I'm hearing at all out of your position is "DRM sucks, hurr durr, but I don't want to actually do anything about it, so I'll just ***** until someone else does something."

[General Battuta]

No, pirating in this case is 'not buying, but not having the spine or moral fiber to actually forego the product, and therefore resorting to illegal means and justifying it.'

In the end it just seems like you want to be able to pirate things. You're just rationalizing cheating, and you don't give a crap about DRM - your list excludes most titles from the days before DRM ever became an issue.

If you gave someone a gun, and then they tried to shoot you with it, wouldn't you try to take it back? The superior morals arguement, not surprising. Of course if you actually knew me better you wouldn't make such bull**** accusations.

Not analogous at all.

What this situation is analogous to is - to continue the car theme - a company selling some really bad cars. This does not give you the legal right to vandalize or steal the cars.

If you think that, you have the sensitivity to nuance of Glenn Beck and the intellectual capacity of his footwear.

And you have the reasoning capability of a frog.

You know instead of making personal attacks and alledging your moral superiority, why don't you actually do something to resolve this? All I've seen you do is try to promote just another form of DRM instead of actually push for its abolition all together. If you can put together the kind of boycott I am talking about below, I'll give up piracy permenantly. Here's your chance, surprise me.

I agree that I'm a little too free with the snide ad homs. Consider it a personal weakness.

But sometimes I feel like you're a man of faith, Kosh. You have a religion and you stick to it. And like a certain recent president, if people aren't with you, you blindly assume they're against you.

What I do is, I don't buy games with DRM. I buy games that do not use DRM. In that way I support publishers - and specific products - that choose to forego this idiotic practice. I just consider it insane to call a disc check DRM.

I actually care about stopping DRM, and I have the spine to avoid giving the companies more justification for using DRM.

There are two scenarios here:

The Battuta scenario, where everyone stops buying DRM games, and they sit on shelves, and companies realize something is wrong and (like EA) start doing something about it.

Or a world full of Koshes, where everyone stops buying DRM games and starts pirating them, and companies say 'Man, ****, we need better DRM.' And the next thing you know there's not a game out there that doesn't have something even more crippling and more ineffective.

Childish entitlement issues inevitably compromise action against this kind of problem.

[General Battuta]

And in other news, anti-DRM crusaders Stardock are hurting badly. The botched launch of Elemental has apparently forced them to lay off staff and cancel a future project.

It'll be an uncomfortable day if Impulse goes under.

[MR_T3D]

The Battuta scenario, where everyone stops buying DRM games, and they sit on shelves, and companies realize something is wrong and (like EA) start doing something about it.

Or a world full of Koshes, where everyone stops buying DRM games and starts pirating them, and companies say 'Man, ****, we need better DRM.' And the next thing you know there's not a game out there that doesn't have something even more crippling and more ineffective.

Childish entitlement issues inevitably compromise action against this kind of problem.

I agree with most of what you said, BUT wasn't spore one of the most pirated games ever, and I think that's the one that made EA shape up.  sometimes that works (well, maybe once)  but there's ubisoft's thing, and I think because they haven't had a big PC game since...I'm not even sure, any 'major' games they've released have been multiplat, consoles likely well outselling PC.
also, ****, stardock is hurting?
need to fire up impulse and buy some stuff. buy GalCiv2 and sins Diplomacy.

[General Battuta]

The Battuta scenario, where everyone stops buying DRM games, and they sit on shelves, and companies realize something is wrong and (like EA) start doing something about it.

Or a world full of Koshes, where everyone stops buying DRM games and starts pirating them, and companies say 'Man, ****, we need better DRM.' And the next thing you know there's not a game out there that doesn't have something even more crippling and more ineffective.

Childish entitlement issues inevitably compromise action against this kind of problem.

I agree with most of what you said, BUT wasn't spore one of the most pirated games ever

Spore was a turning point for EA. They finally smartened up and realized that DRM wasn't stopping piracy, but was causing a massive consumer outcry.

The problem is that most companies will either never reach this realization or will continue to push for harsher DRM even afterwards (see Ubisoft.)

[Spicious]

Not analogous at all.

What this situation is analogous to is - to continue the car theme - a company selling some really bad cars. This does not give you the legal right to vandalize or steal the cars.

True, a physical object is not at all analogous to digital data.

It may be worth keeping in mind that the accuracy of statistics on piracy paraded out (and presumably used internally) by publishers tend to be on the order of just making them up.

[General Battuta]

Not analogous at all.

What this situation is analogous to is - to continue the car theme - a company selling some really bad cars. This does not give you the legal right to vandalize or steal the cars.

True, a physical object is not at all analogous to digital data.

It may be worth keeping in mind that the accuracy of statistics on piracy paraded out (and presumably used internally) by publishers tend to be on the order of just making them up.

But that's tangential. I don't think DRM does anything to stop or deter piracy; in fact I think it incentivizes it.

I just don't think publishers and developers realize that.

[Kosh]

Or a world full of Koshes, where everyone stops buying DRM games and starts pirating them, and companies say 'Man, ****, we need better DRM.' And the next thing you know there's not a game out there that doesn't have something even more crippling and more ineffective.

But isn't that what DIDN'T happen with Spore? According to wikipedia Spore held the record when it was released as THE most pirated game ever up to that point.

On September 13, 2008, it was announced that Spore was the most pirated game ever with over half a million illegal downloads within the first week of release.[68]

You did say it was also a turning point for EA which got them to tone it down, though not quite to a level I'd accept at this time, it still got their attention. So doesn't this show that it not only doesn't stop piracy but it actually made it worse?

But sometimes I feel like you're a man of faith, Kosh. You have a religion and you stick to it. And like a certain recent president, if people aren't with you, you blindly assume they're against you.

I admit I do have strong feelings about some things, much like yourself. I do actually try to be logical and reasonable, and I like to think most of the time I succeed. The problem with this particular issue is they managed to piss me off. In business there is a relationship between customer and company. In this case we trusted the publishers not to push DRM too far, but they did anyway. They broke that trust, and showed that they can never be trusted again. The point of my gun example, is that if allow someone to use something like that, you're trusting them not to do certain things, in the case of DRM that would be trashing your windows security, wrecking game performance, etc. This is a case of betrayal, which is something I never take lightly, no matter if it was directly against me personally or against a group I belong to as a whole. Consider it a personal weakness.

The problem is that most companies will either never reach this realization or will continue to push for harsher DRM even afterwards (see Ubisoft.)

Then we keep hammering them until they shape up, or quit making PC games. They started this war, so let them reap its consequences.

BTW, what was the last major ubisoft pc game?

[Klaustrophobia]

far cry 2 afaik.  which was a dismal failure for reasons other than DRM. 

anywho, it was certainly NOT the publishers who started the war, it was pirating.  pirating came before the DRM to stop it.  i won't argue that DRM was an effective response, but it was really the natural one.  it's like body armor with the advent of guns.  doesn't always work as guns get more powerful and sophisticated, but not protecting at all is just stupid.

alright that analogy didn't come out as clear as i'd hoped.

[BloodEagle]

far cry 2 afaik.  which was a dismal failure for reasons other than DRM. 

anywho, it was certainly NOT the publishers who started the war, it was pirating.  pirating came before the DRM to stop it.  i won't argue that DRM was an effective response, but it was really the natural one.  it's like body armor with the advent of guns.  doesn't always work as guns get more powerful and sophisticated, but not protecting at all is just stupid.

alright that analogy didn't come out as clear as i'd hoped.

So Sony wants to shoot us? 

[Kosh]

far cry 2 afaik.  which was a dismal failure for reasons other than DRM. 

anywho, it was certainly NOT the publishers who started the war, it was pirating.  pirating came before the DRM to stop it.  i won't argue that DRM was an effective response, but it was really the natural one.  it's like body armor with the advent of guns.  doesn't always work as guns get more powerful and sophisticated, but not protecting at all is just stupid.

alright that analogy didn't come out as clear as i'd hoped.

Actually body armor for hundreds of years until recently was completely abandoned BECAUSE of guns.

[Nuke]

im usually on the ban drm side of this argument, but some drm is tolerable. my main concern is when they introduce an artificial dependency. the game requires something to run, such as:

a cd in the drive -tolerable but annoying
an active internet connection -sometimes tolerable
resident software on the computer that always runs, reducing general performance -****ing evil
limited installations -****ing evil
hardware locked activation -****ing evil

starcraft 2 is a good example of something i had reservations about. i didnt like having an active internet connection. of course once i saw how it worked i kinda felt that it was an improvement. i could shelf the cd and still play, and i didnt have to move my player profile if i wanted to play it on a different computer. since i have an always on internet connection (albeit glitchy) i tolerated it. i play lots of games with my brother in law, who lives out in the bush, he has no internet, plays games more than i do, and doesnt pirate. we play starcraft on my lan here or over a crossover cable at his place. he hasnt been buying new computer games because he is concerned that an artificial dependency on an internet connection would prevent him from playing some games. i told him flat out not to buy starcraft 2 because it required an active internet connection. we also had trouble playing lan multiplayer games of sc2 with one of the provided guest keys, because it was dependent on our shoddy internet connection. it worked but not as well as on the lan. we had lag across the room. sc2's drm is a scheme that works for me and 90% of the population, but whats being done for the 10% of people who live off the grid but still play video games. i want to see drm that avoids or attempts to reduce the dependencies at all costs.

i dont like to pirate games. i respect the skill of the game designers. if a developer comes up with a good game i want to support that developer and i know my money will go to making their next game. sometimes the drm is so bad i dont even want to pirate the game. of course an alternative to piracy is to just buy the game and crack it so that you can eliminate the drm. i keep lots of games like that backed up. some i have copied over the install folder from another computer, and applied the bare minimum of registry settings to make it work. older games i usually use drive emulation on, so i can mount an image and install/play the game and the drm is none the wiser. sometimes i can edit the disc image so i can apply cracks to the install files dircectly. it breaks the eula most of the time, but i paid for the game so i feel im entitled to do something like that, at least more so than if i had pirated it.