[SpardaSon21]

Kosh, would you rather have a one-use code to unlock multiplayer, or that rootkit called SecuROM?

[Scotty]

I've stated before that anti-piracy measures have been in the past few years has been a big factor in driving piracy in the first place

Not arguing that.  However, people still pirated stuff before anti-piracy measures, which lead to anti-piracy measures.  The piracy is still the root cause of it.  Some people just had to be pricks and ruin it for everyone, and I'm not going to blame game companies for trying to stop it.

Incidentally, the #1 reason on this page is a very good read.

[General Battuta]

And besides, if people would stop having retardedly huge entitlement issues and pirate games in the first place., we could avoid anti-piracy measures altogether.

I've stated before that anti-piracy measures have been in the past few years has been a big factor in driving piracy in the first place, along with proof. All of which you seemed to ignore. I'm beginning to wonder if we have a gamer version of the Stockholm Syndrome going on here. Do you like DRM raping your system?

So why are you then against the measures that have been implemented by companies in place of DRM??

We live in a capitalist system. That means we shape behavior by providing incentives. What exactly is your problem with providing an incentive for players to buy a game new? EA's Project Ten Dollar dishes out this type of one-time-use code for free DLC and Cerberus Network access in much the same way car manufacturers give special deals to those who buy new cars.

What's your issue with that? Isn't that better than rootkits and copy protection?

[DarkBasilisk]

If FINITE HARD DRIVE SPACE is the issue you have with limited installs, go find a $10 USB stick and never worry about it again.

$10 extra. Yep, no twisting of words, we'd have to pay more. It might not go to gaming publishers, but the fact remains we wouldn't buy it in the first place if the DRM didn't exist.

And besides, if people would stop having retardedly huge entitlement issues and pirate games in the first place., we could avoid anti-piracy measures altogether.

I've stated before that anti-piracy measures have been in the past few years has been a big factor in driving piracy in the first place, along with proof. All of which you seemed to ignore. I'm beginning to wonder if we have a gamer version of the Stockholm Syndrome going on here. Do you like DRM raping your system?

What he's saying is :
Proper response => "This DRM sucks, I'm not going to buy it"
Entitlement Issues => "I still want it so I'm going to pirate it."

With the way the indy community has been booming of late paired with a number of classic games that still have active communities, there's really no reason to give EA or THQ your money or even your attention in cases like this.

I've mentioned this before : it's very simple. Lack of sales and little evidence of piracy shows them that really just no one wanted their crap. Lack of sales and evidence of piracy shows them some people were still potentially willing to get it.

From a business standpoint, the only thing piracy shows is that they need more safe-guards against piracy. Whether or not DRM encourages it is rather meaningless since they'll almost never be any verifiable data they can get to show that, it's not like your pirate bay downloads come with customer surveys.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, if anyone was actually ethically committed to avoiding DRM, they'd just not buy the game. Pirating it just feeds ammunition to the DRM advocates.

If a DRM-ridden game sold very little then the designers would rethink the DRM. But if it gets pirated a lot, the designers - dumb as it may be - say 'we need better DRM'.

[Kosh]

Kosh, would you rather have a one-use code to unlock multiplayer, or that rootkit called SecuROM?

Neither, that's my point. Since when did we the customer become so weak willed and brainwashed that we allow ourselves to choose between two poisons? What if the best choice, is not to choose at all? Even though I dont use multiplayer, I still wouldn't buy a game that had such a rediculous lock. It's about principles and what we stand for.

So why are you then against the measures that have been implemented by companies in place of DRM??

What's your issue with that? Isn't that better than rootkits and copy protection?

Because it is DRM, just a less obnoxious form of it. It still is "managing" your user rights. Once upon a time I would have tolerated it, but with the constant stream of abuse gamers have been getting for the last 6-7 years or so I've had enough of it, all of it. In retrospect it was tolerating it in the first place is what lead to DRM getting so rediculous and crippling.

I've mentioned this before : it's very simple. Lack of sales and little evidence of piracy shows them that really just no one wanted their crap. Lack of sales and evidence of piracy shows them some people were still potentially willing to get it.

But that's just it, we do want it. What we don't want is for it to be locked down.

If a DRM-ridden game sold very little then the designers would rethink the DRM. But if it gets pirated a lot, the designers - dumb as it may be - say 'we need better DRM'.

No, if it sold very little they'd blame piracy and ratchet up DRM even more, punishing paying customers which in turn fuels piracy. If they are so stupid as to punish the people who are going to buy their product then people shouldn't be paying for it in the first place. It's bad business to hurt your customers. In most other industries when a company makes a product like that their customers run away as fast as they can, leaving the company to wallow in losses, and that's how it should be. Why people like Scotty keep coming back for more punishment is a mystery. 

From a business standpoint, the only thing piracy shows is that they need more safe-guards against piracy.

Only if they don't bother to look into what is causing it in the first place. Jumping to conclusions like that more often then not leads to business debacles like sony's rootkit cd recall which costed them millions.

Yeah, if anyone was actually ethically committed to avoiding DRM, they'd just not buy the game. Pirating it just feeds ammunition to the DRM advocates.

There are some people who are just going to pirate regardless,  and that isn't good. But the thing is, and this is a point that was implied, though perhaps not very clearly, pirates will never suffer from debilitating DRM, period. Pirates always find ways around DRM, resulting in no-cd cracks and such, making it 100% useless. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

[DarkBasilisk]

In most other industries when a company makes a product like that their customers run away as fast as they can, leaving the company to wallow in losses, and that's how it should be.

Great point, It's a good thing you haven't been arguing against the ones of us that have been saying to do that in this industry--oh wait. Just like in your example, if someone makes a product with too many defects and strings attached you boycott it, you don't grab it when someone else isn't looking.

Also I'd love to hear your rationalization for the not insignificant number of people who pirated Indy Bundle someone mentioned before : which to save you the time looking up, it was a name your own price (you could literally say you wanted to pay a penny), DRM free bundle of indy games that normally would total to $80 worth of games.

[Scotty]

Indeed.  Indy bundle referenced got pirated by more than 25% of the people who got it.  Which is ****ing ridiculous since you could buy it for one cent.

[Mongoose]

I've stated before that anti-piracy measures have been in the past few years has been a big factor in driving piracy in the first place, along with proof. All of which you seemed to ignore. I'm beginning to wonder if we have a gamer version of the Stockholm Syndrome going on here. Do you like DRM raping your system?

Outside of a few notorious and well-publicized examples, where is all of this "raping" going on?  How many of these schemes are legitimately that much of an inconvenience for players, let alone run any risk of system damage?  I mean, Steam is a form of DRM, yet I use it gladly because it's a very handy program.  Hell, CD checks, activation codes, and even those old Wing Commander questions are all forms of DRM, but none of them fit under the "rape" definition.  So is the problem nearly as widespread as you make it seem?

[achtung]

Outside of a few notorious and well-publicized examples, where is all of this "raping" going on?  How many of these schemes are legitimately that much of an inconvenience for players, let alone run any risk of system damage?  I mean, Steam is a form of DRM, yet I use it gladly because it's a very handy program.  Hell, CD checks, activation codes, and even those old Wing Commander questions are all forms of DRM, but none of them fit under the "rape" definition.  So is the problem nearly as widespread as you make it seem?

It's all about inconvenience, and sometimes about invasiveness. It's also a huge question of whether or not I actually purchased something, or just rented it, for that $60 I just spent.

Steam? I always have to be connected. I know about the ability to play "offline" but as far as I've ever been able to tell, I STILL have to connect at some point shortly before playing, then go offline. Personally though, this is my preferred flavor of DRM.

CD Checks? Really annoying, and what happens if you lose the disc?

Activation codes? Probably the most bearable form. Still, what happens if I lose the activation code. How many times has someone called up a publisher's support line and got a new one?

Limited number of installs? We all know the average Windows PC is likely wiped about twice a year. What do you do when you "run out?" The only solution I see is EA's deactivation application. I used it for Mass Effect, and it did seem to do the trick. I wonder what would happen if it couldn't phone home though.

DLC? Yes, it is DRM. They give you a barebones game now, and charge you for the actual content later. Oh, and of course, they still ask the standard up-front price of $50-$60. Wasn't it 1/3 of a game for Starcraft 2?

Other forms such as StarForce come to mind. Invasive DRM that can actually degrade hardware performance is pretty horrendous.

While I know all games have a pretty little EULA that tells me I only licensed a copy of the game, I still feel like I should OWN the game. If I paid what the publisher asked, then why the hell shouldn't that copy of the game be totally mine to do whatever I please with? This does exclude infringement of course.

[mxlm]

So why are you then against the measures that have been implemented by companies in place of DRM??

We live in a capitalist system. That means we shape behavior by providing incentives. What exactly is your problem with providing an incentive for players to buy a game new? EA's Project Ten Dollar dishes out this type of one-time-use code for free DLC and Cerberus Network access in much the same way car manufacturers give special deals to those who buy new cars.

What's your issue with that? Isn't that better than rootkits and copy protection?

I'm unconvinced the 'buy our games new' stuff is intended to function as a replacement for DRM. It's primarily aimed at the console market, after all.

[Kosh]

In most other industries when a company makes a product like that their customers run away as fast as they can, leaving the company to wallow in losses, and that's how it should be.

Great point, It's a good thing you haven't been arguing against the ones of us that have been saying to do that in this industry--oh wait. Just like in your example, if someone makes a product with too many defects and strings attached you boycott it, you don't grab it when someone else isn't looking.

Also I'd love to hear your rationalization for the not insignificant number of people who pirated Indy Bundle someone mentioned before : which to save you the time looking up, it was a name your own price (you could literally say you wanted to pay a penny), DRM free bundle of indy games that normally would total to $80 worth of games.

If you'd actually read what I said you'd know that I would not rationalize it, or defend it.

Outside of a few notorious and well-publicized examples, where is all of this "raping" going on?  How many of these schemes are legitimately that much of an inconvenience for players, let alone run any risk of system damage?  I mean, Steam is a form of DRM, yet I use it gladly because it's a very handy program.  Hell, CD checks, activation codes, and even those old Wing Commander questions are all forms of DRM, but none of them fit under the "rape" definition.  So is the problem nearly as widespread as you make it seem?

Here's a list of games that have either star force, securom, or safedisc (which wasn't too bad). In fact this shows the progression of it. Most of the old stuff like medal of honor allied assault used safedisc, which was just some annoying cd check. Notice how it has progressed into the star force and securom infested crap that we have today. Looks pretty widespread to me, especially since many of those were major titles.

[General Battuta]

So why don't you support publishers attempting to move away from it?

Games are cheaper than they've ever been. The industry has been extraordinarily good to consumers in this respect. If you consider the DRM issue to be so critical, then don't buy games with DRM and buy games that take alternative solutions to copy protection and buy-new incentives.

[DarkBasilisk]

I'm still not so sure about the cheaper part : with my comment about how inflation doesn't mean everyone's purchasing power scales with the shift.

[General Battuta]

I'm still not so sure about the cheaper part : with my comment about how inflation doesn't mean everyone's purchasing power scales with the shift.

Inflation generally means a drop in the purchasing power of a currency on a per-unit basis. However, in a steady low-inflation economy like the US', wages and overall household purchasing power generally track inflation, so the fact that game prices have held steady for so long actually means they've dropped in effective price.

[Mongoose]

Steam? I always have to be connected. I know about the ability to play "offline" but as far as I've ever been able to tell, I STILL have to connect at some point shortly before playing, then go offline. Personally though, this is my preferred flavor of DRM.

How often are you going to be without an Internet connection, though?  I mean, barring service trouble, your desktop should be always-on.  Maybe if you're traveling with a laptop, but that's what offline mode is for, and even then, public wi-fi is getting pretty ubiquitous.

CD Checks? Really annoying, and what happens if you lose the disc?

If you manage to lose game disks, maybe it's a sign you need to clean your room.

Activation codes? Probably the most bearable form. Still, what happens if I lose the activation code. How many times has someone called up a publisher's support line and got a new one?

Never had to call one myself.  And given that the code is usually stuck onto the game's case, the previous point applies.

Limited number of installs? We all know the average Windows PC is likely wiped about twice a year.

Damn...what do people do to their systems?  I've been running my current XP install for probably three years now without any significant problems.  (*knocks on head*)  I know people who have kept an install going for far longer than that, too.  I'll agree with you that placing a hard limit on the number of installs is indeed bull****, but it's not something that should normally come up on a very frequent basis.

DLC? Yes, it is DRM. They give you a barebones game now, and charge you for the actual content later. Oh, and of course, they still ask the standard up-front price of $50-$60. Wasn't it 1/3 of a game for Starcraft 2?

The Terran campaign in SC2 was longer than all three race's campaigns in the original game combined.  Oh, and you can still play with all three races in multiplayer.  Doesn't seem like a third of a game to me.  As far as DLC goes, the vast majority of instances I've come across are far more like expansion packs than content that should have been in the game in the first place, and they're priced accordingly.

While I know all games have a pretty little EULA that tells me I only licensed a copy of the game, I still feel like I should OWN the game. If I paid what the publisher asked, then why the hell shouldn't that copy of the game be totally mine to do whatever I please with? This does exclude infringement of course.

In the ideal sort of world that GOG helps promote, yeah, that should be the case.  But in the meantime, fairly-benign forms of DRM don't seem like a massive hardship.

[Kosh]

However, in a steady low-inflation economy like the US', wages and overall household purchasing power generally track inflation, so the fact that game prices have held steady for so long actually means they've dropped in effective price.

No. The only people's wages that actually have gone up (and they've gone up quite considerably) have been executive and upper management. Unfortunately it's gone up so much that it distorts the overall statistic, making it seem like the plebians are benefiting too. They haven't been.

If you consider the DRM issue to be so critical, then don't buy games with DRM and buy games that take alternative solutions to copy protection and buy-new incentives.

Which is pretty much what I said I do. Like I said, I have a list.

So why don't you support publishers attempting to move away from it?

Because they aren't moving away from DRM. They are replacing it with a less obnoxious form, but it is still DRM. It's been our willingness to just roll over and accept it that got us into this mess in the first place.

EDIT: I'm also going to point out that probably the only tolerable system is Sins of a Solar Empire. While it does have an activation key, that key also allows several copies to be run simultaneously, and even then it's to access patches.  There's no cd checks, no limited nonsimultaneous installs, no virus like drm, none of that nonsense. This game is going on the list.

[General Battuta]

I edited this whole post to make it a bit less mocking. I'm so nice.

However, in a steady low-inflation economy like the US', wages and overall household purchasing power generally track inflation, so the fact that game prices have held steady for so long actually means they've dropped in effective price.

No. The only people's wages that actually have gone up (and they've gone up quite considerably) have been executive and upper management. Unfortunately it's gone up so much that it distorts the overall statistic, making it seem like the plebians are benefiting too. They haven't been.

Read the link. The very first point it makes is that real wages have been stagnant = they have matched inflation but not grown past it.

I quote: "as much of the data in this brief reveal, many workers' wages have been stagnant for a number of years, after adjusting for inflation". Exactly the point I made.

I admire your attempt to get an outside source, but the source actually supports my point.

If you consider the DRM issue to be so critical, then don't buy games with DRM and buy games that take alternative solutions to copy protection and buy-new incentives.

Which is pretty much what I said I do. Like I said, I have a list.

No, what you said was that you pirate the games. Your list is poorly constructed, which makes it seem like you've just got a Chicken Little complex about DRM, but no idea how to handle the problem.

EDIT: I'm also going to point out that probably the only tolerable system is Sins of a Solar Empire. While it does have an activation key, that key also allows several copies to be run simultaneously, and even then it's to access patches.  There's no cd checks, no limited nonsimultaneous installs, no virus like drm, none of that nonsense. This game is going on the list.

Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age only use disc checks. Starcraft used disc checks. Half-Life used disc checks. Mechwarrior 2 used disc checks. Why were disc checks acceptable to you in the 90s and suddenly unacceptable now?

Look, I think DRM is a terrible idea - though I think by now you've convinced yourself I am The Great Satan and have Securom in my brain or something. As far as I'm concerned, DRM does nothing to stop piracy, and all it does is punish consumers (mildly in some cases, severely in others).

But if you write off games with effectively no DRM like Mass Effect 2, FreeSpace 2, or Dragon Age, you're dangerously close to seeming like don't actually give a **** about DRM. You want an excuse to pirate games.

That's right. Retail FreeSpace 2 used a disc check (it had to, to the best of my knowledge). You would be unable to buy it by your own standards.

[Kosh]

No, what you said was that you pirate the games. Your list is poorly constructed, which makes it seem like you've just got a Chicken Little complex about DRM, but no idea how to handle the problem.

Pirating in this case means "not buying". Surely someone with your education level should have been able to deduce that. I stated many times I do intent to legally buy games that satisfy my stated requirements. I also gave clear parameters for what goes on the list.

Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age only use disc checks. Starcraft used disc checks. Half-Life used disc checks. Mechwarrior 2 used disc checks. Why were disc checks acceptable to you in the 90s and suddenly unacceptable now?

Because the publishers upped the ante. We had to hit back. When they did that it made it very clear that they can never be trusted again with such technology.

But if you write off games with effectively no DRM like Mass Effect 2, FreeSpace 2, or Dragon Age, you're dangerously close to seeming like don't actually give a **** about DRM. You want an excuse to pirate games.

And you'd be wrong. Even though I'd love to play Sins of a Solar Empire, I don't have the money yet. However I've never thought about pirating it, and I never will. Same with Galactic Civilizations 2. Even the games I do pirate I only play once, then delete it.

That's right. Retail FreeSpace 2 used a disc check (it had to, to the best of my knowledge). You would be unable to buy it by your own standards.

I know all about it, I never did buy it. I discovered it all the way back in 2003 through piracy, mostly because back then it was impossible to buy legally except through hugely overpriced ebay copies. A lot of people here back then pirated it, especially the then newer members. Ultimately it was piracy that kept FS2 alive and allowed the community to grow until GoG picked it up recently. However, FS2 is a special case. Why? Three letters: FSO. How many of us actually play retail anymore? Pretty much all of us use FSO now, especially with all the mods out there it's almost a different game. If it wasn't for FSO I would not consider buying FS2. But because of that and the excellent work of the SCP team and many modders here it remains the sole exception.   

Look, I think DRM is a terrible idea - though I think by now you've convinced yourself I am The Great Satan and have Securom in my brain or something. As far as I'm concerned, DRM does nothing to stop piracy, and all it does is punish consumers (mildly in some cases, severely in others).

You've been the one defending them. Pick your poison is not a choice.

[SpardaSon21]

He's attacking bad DRM that will screw over your system and possibly interfere with the game's proper functioning, such as SecuROM and Starforce, and defending good forms of DRM, which are incentives for people to legally purchase the game by offering benefits, like in the case of Sins of a Solar Empire (yes, updates only through Impulse is a form of DRM), and with EA offering free DLC to purchasers.

Pirating games that have a relative lack of DRM will only convince the boardroom suits that people will keep trying to pirate no matter how good the incentives to buy are, so they will think they have to put more and more DRM on to protect the bottom line.