Author Topic: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?  (Read 3326 times)

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Offline Galemp

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The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
When discussing enforcement of community standards we are faced with the same problem as society at large: that is, the Paradox of Tolerance.

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The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.

One of the proposed community standards is to create a community where all are welcome, specifically calling out race, sex, and gender. However religion and politics are not represented, and we need to establish--for our community, at least--where tolerance ends.

  • How would the moderation team respond to a member being attacked for being Jewish? Muslim? Evangelical nondenominational Christian?
  • How would the moderation team respond to a member voicing anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-LGBTQ views?
  • How is stating one's membership in that group different from espousing the doctrine of that group?
  • Similarly, if one expresses affiliation with a political party or movement, how much tolerance do we have for that?
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Offline Galemp

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I see two positions here, either proactive or reactive. For the sake of argument I'll use the hypothetical polite Nazi.

Proactive
Firmly establish HLP as taking a position against certain behaviour and groups that espouse that behaviour: Nazis are not welcome. Board members discovered to be Nazis, or affiliated with Nazis, are banned. Prevent the infiltration and entrenchment of these groups. See the bartender story for reference.

Reactive
Moderation is based on behaviour, not belief. Give members the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves otherwise. In this case the polite Nazi could continue to operate in the community so long as they don't break the community guidelines against hate speech--making it clear that Nazi symbols are considered hate speech. Regarding behaviour outside of the HLP moderation bubble, admins and moderators would do well to read up on some basic management training regarding harassment and a hostile work environment.

Personally, I don't think religious or political discussion of any kind belongs here on HLP. At all. Not in the current climate, anyway. We are all here together to mod video games and  should respect each other for our contributions to the community, regardless of views on other unrelated subjects. Where it crosses the line into harassment or creating a hostile work environment, it should be addressed, but until then we ought to keep things open.
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...

 

Offline Rhymes

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
Personally, I don't think religious or political discussion of any kind belongs here on HLP. At all. Not in the current climate, anyway. We are all here together to mod video games and  should respect each other for our contributions to the community, regardless of views on other unrelated subjects. Where it crosses the line into harassment or creating a hostile work environment, it should be addressed, but until then we ought to keep things open.

My thoughts on the rest will require some more time to articulate (also coffee), but regarding this, I'm going to quote Mongoose in one of the other threads we had on this just a couple days ago.

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My stance on this remains the same as it has been over the past several months: if people do not wish to engage in political discussion, then they are free to keep PolDisc disabled and to not engage in said topics. It's not even a particularly heated place, but if that sort of conversation is not your bag, then I fully understand! (If you want to see a real "lunatic asylum" of politics, check out GenDisc circa 2005 or so. Or rather, don't.) But there are many of us who have been in this community for a long time, who know each other about as well as one can in the context of a forum dedicated to a 20-year-old space game, and who enjoy talking with each other about the Big Important Things that pop up in the real world. Not everyone here is as active on the FS side of things as they may have been in the past, or may be in the future, but they still want to be engaged with the community they love. Discussions like this help that happen, and can help sustain a community during the inevitable lulls in activity that it experiences.

I think the most important thing to reiterate here is that none of the significant issues of the past several months had their root cause in political arguments, or if they were involved were tangential to an underlying issue which would have caused problems regardless. This is not a PolDisc problem.
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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
Quote
Personally, I don't think religious or political discussion of any kind belongs here on HLP. At all. Not in the current climate, anyway. We are all here together to mod video games and  should respect each other for our contributions to the community, regardless of views on other unrelated subjects. Where it crosses the line into harassment or creating a hostile work environment, it should be addressed, but until then we ought to keep things open.

A ban on politics and a ban on Nazis are concordant, whether the enforcement of policy is active or reactive. This isn't some democratic debate about whether or not to raise the minimum wage. Nazi beliefs are incompatible with the policy of mutual respect that HLP supposedly operates on.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 02:04:00 pm by -Joshua- »

 
Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I really don't think we need all these posts about Nazis, honestly. Does anyone actually want to keep them around...?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Rhymes

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
Tbh I agree. It feels like we're all collectively going down a rat hole on this stuff rather than focusing on "how do we deal with the day-to-day interaction with regulars in the community." I think it's at least partially my fault  :blah:
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“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
It is somewhat understandable given recent events, but it's also not something that's historically been a recurring problem here. I think I can safely speak for the rest of the mods in that we have absolutely no tolerance for intolerance.

 
Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I really don't think we need all these posts about Nazis, honestly. Does anyone actually want to keep them around...?
They'll have to suffer through a bunch of us being openly gay, trans, jewish or what have you if they do manage to stick around somehow so really them sticking around is much more painful for them then it is for us :P

 

Offline The E

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I feel like this repeated construction of hypotheticals a bit weird. One of the core tenets of the new guidelines is that they are deliberately not exhaustively defined to account for the inherent fuzziness of human interaction, and yet here we are, in this thread and the other one, constructing scenarios in order to nail down something that almost looks like a precedent or clear parameters for moderation action.

I understand why that is, there is scar tissue that itches in this regard, but I would ask that this is a situation where some trust has to be extended to the moderators and let these situations be resolved as they arise, not in advance.
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Offline Rhymes

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I feel like this repeated construction of hypotheticals a bit weird. One of the core tenets of the new guidelines is that they are deliberately not exhaustively defined to account for the inherent fuzziness of human interaction, and yet here we are, in this thread and the other one, constructing scenarios in order to nail down something that almost looks like a precedent or clear parameters for moderation action.

I understand why that is, there is scar tissue that itches in this regard, but I would ask that this is a situation where some trust has to be extended to the moderators and let these situations be resolved as they arise, not in advance.

Hey I only did mine because I was trying to get a sense of how the rules would work to make sure that my conception was the same as everyone else's. It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive examination or rules lawyering (and it's rather frustrating to have people keep referring to it that way). I think people are trying to figure out "hey, what the **** does this actually mean?" because broad principles are by definition vague and depend on what the people enforcing them take those principles to mean. It's reasonable to try to figure out what behavior is or is not problematic before getting moderated, rather than having to wait and find out.
If you don't have Knossos, you need it.

“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I created this thread because certain prominent political leaders are, if not Nazis, at least toying with fascism in a way that is deeply troubling. And some of their followers are significant contributors to this community.

It's important that we have principles but we have to work out how much of the political spectrum we are willing to alienate when we do so.
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
Well, so far the answer is "none," since nobody who's an active contributor has left on political grounds. We've just removed people from positions of authority for threatening other users over political disagreements.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
What I really would prefer not to see, to echo some others, is for this thread to take off with hypothetical discussions and meanwhile the tangible discussion of how to set up community standards gets comparatively less attention.  So for those reading, if you're going to expend your time and energy on only one of these things, please make it the Standards and not this.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Fusion

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
Ngl I don't think Nazis are actually as big an issue in this community as everyone seems to think they are. To my knowledge there are two people(Not a Nazi here, so ignoring past arguments) across 21 years that to my knowledge have ever been Nazis in the greater community - the guy who got banned recently, and ShadowGorrath(that's what I heard years ago, so could be wrong). I'd be worried about other political ideologies seeking to cause harm in the community than one whose members apparently show up on average a little less than once every decade.

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
More succinctly: I'm asking whether we choose to discipline members based on what they believe or what they do.
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...

 

Offline Fusion

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
More succinctly: I'm asking whether we choose to discipline members based on what they believe or what they do.
As someone who got banned based on a presumption of what he believed over what he did in the community, I'm admittedly in favor of the latter.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
More succinctly: I'm asking whether we choose to discipline members based on what they believe or what they do.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but as always, it's about context. If someone's openly-expressed views are heinous enough that they pose a threat to the well-being of the entire community, then they can and will be removed from it. If it's a belief that doesn't quite rise to that level, then as always, it's how the person acts. I think you have to handle these situations on a case-by-case basis instead of trying to create hard rules from them that may not mesh with the particulars of a future situation.

I'd also like to echo Ryan's plea to see if we can direct this energy toward hashing out the standards, so that what we come up with in the end is flexible enough to handle any hypothetical future scenario.

 

Offline The E

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
It's impossible to peer into people's heads. So long as their beliefs aren't made apparent in their actions, there's nothing to take action on - you can be an ardent supporter of holding phone conferences in theaters and noone would know until the moment where you'd enter a discussion arguing that talking during a film is good, actually.

This is why "ironic" naziposting (or terfposting, homophobeposting, antivaxxposting....) should be a bannable offense (It's important to pay a lot of attention to your writing if you're trying to do a sarcastic imitations of toxicity, kids. It's not enough to use <sarcasm> tags!). We can't tolerate the real thing; given that all we know about a person is what they express in their posts, it's better to err on the side of caution than try to perform telepathy in an attempt to discern what's real and what's not about a given persona.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
People are going to be held accountable for what they do, and whether it's here or elsewhere online is going to depend on the seriousness of the transgression.

If you want to fill your day with Twitter posts about the great Jewish conspiracy to destroy democracy and send all Christians to re-education camps, and your Twitter profile shows a direct connection between your personal there and your account here - or it is otherwise publicly traceable - do not be surprised if you suddenly find yourself without discord and forum privileges here. We are not a safe space for people who like to engage in public bigotry elsewhere to come relax and talk about video games.
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: The Paradox of Tolerance, or: When is it okay to punch a Nazi?
I created this thread because certain prominent political leaders are, if not Nazis, at least toying with fascism in a way that is deeply troubling. And some of their followers are significant contributors to this community.

It's important that we have principles but we have to work out how much of the political spectrum we are willing to alienate when we do so.
I think that a guy who vote some conservatives just [for example] for economic reasons, but also disagree [or openly condemns] with their approach to religion, culture or LGBT+ matters etc. is not a nazi-supporter. We can't blame people for having priorities. Also we can't blame people for countervoting. It happened in my life to vote options I completely disagree with, just to support counterbalance and weaken even worse assholes.

It's harmful oversimplification to recognise only nazi-supporters and non-nazi. People pledge their support for certain political options for variety of different reasons. We can't just push any Republican supporter to shameful nazi corner, as it would be very opressive and unfair for such individual.

If moderator encounter a situation involving [for example] a conservative and group of progressivists being pissed off because such individual voted some controversial politician, I think it's important for mod crew to elaborate if such guy shares some negative traits with the politician he supported. Maybe he voted because he prioritize one thing about the guy, but disagree with the rest? I think that in US the problem is even more evident as there are only two real options to pick from. Support for political option we completely agree with is a luxury... I think majority of us rarely have.

I think that especially now, when political scene is deeply polarized basically worldwide we should be carreful with accusations. And carreful with Banhammer of Ownage. Also "nazi" and "communist" are incredibly strong and offensive terms, but I see them used on daily basis in many different communities. That's what should stop, unless there is a strong reason.

...

And... Yeah, there are guys around who used to think that being gay is caused by possession of "demons of homosexuality". As much as ridiculous it sounds, I think such statements are opressive towards LGBT+ community and should be punished.
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