[Dragon]

Battuta and Darius.  
Spoon is also a decent writer.
And of course, there are such famous writers as Blaise Russel (Sol: A History) or Ransom Arceihn (Transcend), but they may be unavailable.
In fact, you may look who wrote a campaign which you liked the most, check if he's still around and ask him if he could help.

[General Battuta]

Writing is a craft, like modeling or FREDding or coding. Bring in an expert.

Can you recommend someone?

Well I er. I've been cogitating on that point, and it is tricky.

And no I would not brand myself an expert. I think Ransom's better than me, I think The_E is quite good, but they're both very busy. It's hard to find people. *sigh*

[Sushi]

Stuff like this thread makes me very hesitant to even try. I don't want to have to find a dozen different expert consultants in order to make a campaign that people will enjoy, and I don't want it pecked to death the instant it gets out the door. If I ever do finish and release anything, I may just release it anonymously to avoid the shame of my amateurishness.

Yes, I said I'd withhold my comments until I played it, but seriously, this is depressing.

[General Battuta]

Stuff like this thread makes me very hesitant to even try. I don't want to have to find a dozen different expert consultants in order to make a campaign that people will enjoy, and I don't want it pecked to death the instant it gets out the door. If I ever do finish and release anything, I may just release it anonymously to avoid the shame of my amateurishness.

Yes, I said I'd withhold my comments until I played it, but seriously, this is depressing.

While I can empathize with that concern, unquestioning praise is equally dangerous, and in this case I believe the critics have advanced a good case.

You don't need to find a dozen different expert consultants - that's hyperbole - but you should always run your campaign by a few people. The fact that the writing issues here were not caught earlier is a failure in the testing process.

[bigchunk1]

Before this turns into a "Trash the grammar checkers thread", which may be deserved, let's be fair about the work I contributed to this campaign. Due to the large volume of writing in DOS and the limited time I had to work on the project, TopAce divided up the editing and assigned different missions to different people. Klaustraphobia and starwolf split the first 20 missions and I was to correct missions from the character branch, the military branch, and the techroom database entries.

I regret that I was not more proactive in the process, I did not even look at first 20 missions in their corrected form. I was the last to submit my work and further analysis of the grammar would easily postpone the campaign until November. Also there is the inevitable issue of grammar checkers disagreeing with one another which would require more correspondence which would further delay this release. I let it go. 

Now for those of you who played the first 10 missions and concluded that bigchunk1 is not a very helpful editor, I hope you now understand my frustration. Make no mistake, I welcome criticism on dialogue which could have been better improved from the body of missions I was assigned. I am aware no one has directly criticized what I have done over the other grammar checkers, but it seems that my incompetence is being implied from the work of others. 

I was hesitant to make this point until now, because when a group works on a campaign, everyone involved is responsible to make it the best they possibly can. Also, suffice to say pointing fingers is not constructive. However, I did quite enjoy the editing experience and I am interested to do more work of this nature in the future. It would be very difficult to reference DOS if it consistently gets flogged for poor grammar. I offered to go back and edit the first 20 missions, but Ace was not interested.

It makes me sad to read this thread. When spoon made that post right on the first page I tasted something ill in my mouth. What I regret about the release of this campaign the most is that the focus of the criticism is limited to something that is for the most part out of TopAce's control . He is not a native English speaker and was fully aware of it so he posted a thread asking for people to look over his campaign before release. He already made that effort people are now suggesting he should have made. He was very responsive to the needs of his grammar checkers and was overall good to work with. I now have the impression that we (the grammar checkers) let him down and did not allow him to properly present his creation to the community.

I'm sure what is getting to Ace the most is that hardly any comments have been made about DOS outside of grammar. For some reason a bandwagon started rolling and everyone hopped on. I would think that understanding the fact that TopAce is not a native speaker of English would allow people to gloss over these errors and see the campaign for what it is. This thread has turned into an overkill dwelling on something which I feel can be overlooked if effort is made. I'm really hoping someone out there played the campaign, saw something other than a spelling bee and just didn't bother to replay to this thread. I feel it is likely.

So yes, from now on focus those English related concerns towards the grammar checkers and maybe this thread will someday move beyond the issue. I wonder had we been more diligent, what this thread would be discussing instead.

[General Battuta]

the most is that hardly any comments have been made about DOS outside of grammar. For some reason a bandwagon started rolling and everyone hopped on.

You misunderstand. The issue is not grammar - Spoon's campaign had some dodgy grammar yet was quite good. The issue is the writing. No amount of grammar polishing would have helped that.

However I agree that the campaign could still be of great interest to some, perhaps many players. It should remain available.

At the same time, we need to respect the right of our community members to speak their criticism honestly. Nothing in this thread so far has constituted flaming (well, mostly) and while it has been harsh, I hope it's also been constructive.

[TopAce]

Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.

[General Battuta]

Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.

Specific critique would indeed be excellent. I can do that. Let me get home from work and keep nagging me to do it.

[Mobius]

Can you recommend someone?

Javito1986.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Some more specific examples would also help greatly to get a more accurate picture of what I did wrong. Like, what about the intro cutscene? I wrote three different iterations to it.

Has it been re-uploaded yet? I think you would get some more specific examples if more people could play it Though, I myself wouldn't be able to play it for a number of days since I don't even have FS install at this time.

[Klaustrophobia]

to expand a little on what bigchunk is saying, the grammar editors did one thing and one thing only: edited the grammar within their assigned missions.  i haven't played the released campaign yet, so I also haven't seen the other editors' work.  i knew as i was participating that there were undoubtedly going to be inconsistencies between the sections.  i would have loved to have a collaborative effort with everyone across all missions to go beyond the grammar and smooth out the storytelling, but school started and that would have taken months.  i noticed some of the things being pointed out here, changed what i could without altering any of the content beyond clarity/grammar.  i REALLY didn't think it was going to draw this much reaction.  i thought the non-standard characters, military structure and whatnot was very unique and original, if not everyone's cup of tea, and that everyone would recognize that with a "good idea, but it's not my personal taste" rather than "people would NEVER act that way!!!1"  like bigchunk, i had never heard of this mod before i stumbled across the thread asking for help.  if this ever gets reposted and new people get to play it, don't play it expecting something in the style of FS2 or even any of the other mods.

as for the "show, don't tell," i know what you mean.  it can probably be improved on, but i'm not sure that it can ever be completely done for this mod.  this is a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.  it's not supposed to be feel-good, and trying to guide feel-good players is just not going to work.

TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.  i don't want to see this go down in flames because of the way the story was told.

[General Battuta]

as for the "show, don't tell," i know what you mean.  it can probably be improved on, but i'm not sure that it can ever be completely done for this mod.  this is a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.  it's not supposed to be feel-good, and trying to guide feel-good players is just not going to work

I think this critique is misguided in that another recent mod attempted the same kind of story arc and largely, I daresay, succeeded. The concept is not fundamentally flawed, it's the execution that went wrong.

The problem here is that this doesn't come off as a dark story about the journey of the PC to becoming a cold instrument of death.

[NGTM-1R]

Okay, I've tried to remain reasonably civil, but with the grammar checkers and others apparently not able to read the original criticisms it's time to give 'em both barrels because nothing else is getting through. Yes, the grammar is awful and too perfect at the same time, but Axem, myself, and Woolie also presented QUITE A FEW OTHER CONCERNS BESIDES GRAMMAR. Bigchunk, you don't get it. Klaustrophobia, you don't get it either. Go back and read the original postings again.

No military organization could function in this fashion. The rules of acceptable behavior within a military organization have changed very little since the Middle Ages. They are not born of culture, but of the fact you are fighting very basic biological instincts for self-preservation; there is a reason they all look alike, it's called parallel evolution. TopAce's dystopian future military could never manage to fight a war. It would only barely manage day-to-day operations. This is not negotiable. Such behavior would not fly under Genghis Khan, it would not in medieval Europe, it would not under Robert E. Lee, it would not in the Waffen SS, it will not today in modern China (or anywhere else for that matter).

Actual conversation does not adhere perfectly to the rules of grammar. Go watch a television show.

You cannot tell the player how to feel. It doesn't work, it typically just upsets them and breaks suspension of disbelief.

There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression". Do you want me to totally cease my suspension of disbelief? That's a dealbreaker in the rawest form, letting the audience see the stage directions. You can't do that, not in a serious work. Maybe William Shakespeare could get away with that kind of thing, but neither you nor I are William Shakespeare.

Dealing In Extremes is so heavyhanded it makes Warhammer 40,000 fiction look like Hello Kitty. I'm not joking, for the record, I have a complete set of the Gaunt's Ghosts and Ultramarines books. This is so utterly contrary to human nature, and so incredibly stupid to reward someone for. You don't want pyschopaths with guns for your soldiers, because then they're totally uncontrollable.

The Third Race plot pops up again. That's not new, sorry TopAce, but I have to admit the way you handled it was different.

Both times, the campaign doesn't really end. It just stops.

[Klaustrophobia]

Okay, I've tried to remain reasonably civil, but with the grammar checkers and others apparently not able to read the original criticisms it's time to give 'em both barrels because nothing else is getting through. Yes, the grammar is awful and too perfect at the same time, but Axem, myself, and Woolie also presented QUITE A FEW OTHER CONCERNS BESIDES GRAMMAR. Bigchunk, you don't get it. Klaustrophobia, you don't get it either. Go back and read the original postings again.

then i wasn't talking to you.  i'm sorry that i didn't realize i needed to preface my comments with THIS IS DIRECTED AT THE GRIPES ABOUT GRAMMAR.


bats, i know what you mean.  for sure there is work that can be done on DOS in this reguard, and the other mod you mention executes better.  but in my personal opinion, it still comes up slightly short.  the player is never directly addressed by something like "YOU FEEL BLAHBLAH WHATEVER," but the PC dialogue is essentially the same thing when it comes down to it.  the PC actions, emotions, and responses are still dictated by the narrative, not originated in the player.  there was more than one instance in said mod where i disagreed with how i was being "led" to feel.  now don't get me wrong, i don't fault the mod one bit for this, nor any other that ever suffers the same effect.  it simply comes with the territory of having a characterized PC. 

[TopAce]

TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.

I wouldn't like to touch this in the near future. For now, I'm doing something less ambitious and more absorbable at the moment. If I mess up on that too, I'll simply put up with the fact that my inability to write credibly prevents me from making good mods.

There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression".

And that's about the only two instances where you receive some in-flight gameplay recommendations.

The Third Race plot pops up again. That's not new, sorry TopAce, but I have to admit the way you handled it was different.

I've never said it was new. Of course it wasn't.

[ktistai228]

TopAce don't give up. Think of what you have now as a skeleton, and work on that. It could go. A few corrections here and there and it could be great. You really don't know. And you wouldn't be the only one screwing up the first time and trying again. Look at the other DoS(Dawn of Sol, damn these initials are cursed). It was released, it went bad, it went down. We are remaking it. Give it a try! And don't give up!

[General Battuta]

TopAce, if you have plans to work toward a re-release and change up the writing, let me know.  if i have any time (and that's a pretty big if) i'd love to help.

I wouldn't like to touch this in the near future. For now, I'm doing something less ambitious and more absorbable at the moment. If I mess up on that too, I'll simply put up with the fact that my inability to write credibly prevents me from making good mods.

But if that's the only thing you feel you can't do well, why not team up with someone else? There are people here (Scotty?) who are relatively new to FRED but would be happy to write.

[Shivan Hunter]

There are actual stage directions. "Use Time Compression". "Don't use Time Compression".

And that's about the only two instances where you receive some in-flight gameplay recommendations.

Sorry to pick on this one point but in no way can that be used as an excuse. "But there are only a few times I completely broke suspension of disbelief"! If you want to force time compression, do it in the mission itself. The SEXPs are available.

[TopAce]

I tried that SEXP and it didn't work.

[Admiral MS]

I tried that SEXP and it didn't work.

I just took a look at one of the missions: m04_ss = Shock. There is already an event with a set-time-compression after the talking is done (but set false) and a reset-time-compression some time later. Changing it to true and correcting the ending time worked perfectly fine in the mission. Although there seems to be something preventing me from using time compression before this event unless I put in another reset-time-compression at mission start.

Anyway, I just finished the campaign with the military branch and I don't think everything is as bad as everyone says. There are at least some innovations and gameplay changes to normal FS2/FS1 I really liked. Maybe I'll write some small review.