Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103373 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh, just like they moved on from Solo? Also, you forgot "cultural marxists", let us not forget the cultural marxists. I reckon that should also be part of the above.  :lol:  :lol:

A key component to the idiocies that are peddled in this vast community of TLJ haters is that the badness of this movie was something that wrecked SOLO's chances to succeed. It's like everything else these people say, they take a bunch of facts and then construe an entire silly narrative that caters to their idiocies.

Of course, a simpler explanation is that the movie was too close, it was by far too uninteresting, it had production problems from the get go, there was no hype for it whatsoever, and the word of mouth was "meh it's alright I guess". This doesn't drive sales through the roof.

I loved TLJ, and guess what. I didn't go see SOLO. The thought of doing that never even crossed my mind.

So no, Mika, once again, you're wrong. I guess there's a consistency to admire here.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
How does Solo "make money domestically"?  What does that mean? The production cost is split between domestic and international markets? According to IMDB, it's made 380 mils gross world wide by 12th of July. The production cost is estimated at 300 mils. That's 80 millions surplus, with the exception that the world wide gross is split about 50/50 between the studio and theaters. That means studio got about 190 millions, pushing the movie well to the negative of around -110 mils. And that's without accounting the marketing costs.

Oh I thought it was 200 million like the other movies, and since it's made more than 200 domestically-  either way that sounds more of a Solo problem not a Last Jedi problem. 

Is it Last Jedi's fault that Howard decided to re-shoot 70% of the movie? That's probably why the budget is as high as it is. Filming is the most expensive part of production and the dude essentially did it twice
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 08:57:52 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
This.....is uncanny.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Ripping / homaging John Carpenter is always a plus for me :yes:.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yep his apocalypse trilogy are formative favourites of mine.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Mika

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Mika, 90% of those user reviews on aggregators are just a score plus a badly spelled rant (or even just a "Dis movie suX coz SJW!!!"), you can do that on a smartphone or tablet easily or ye know, using bots.

PS: Most people that start with tablets or smartphones write a lot with them, it's mostly us computer nerds that have problems if they don't have a mouse and a full sized keyboard because we know better, hell I saw my cousin write long e-mails on a fricking i-pad.

Actually, no. If you start to ignore negative one liner reviews, you should do so for the positive ones as well (there's quite a bunch of them as well if you look through the reviews), and if not, then why not? Written text reviews are actually a minority, most of the people rate the movie just by giving the score number. E-mails are about the longest thing you can write with a mobile or pad. Pads and phones are mostly used for one line at a time chat communications, not writing reviews. If you use Pad for professional writing and text editing work, you really are wasting time. Of course, that's one way to make oneself look busy, though.

The written reviews, for those who wanted to say something about their rating, are a sample of the entire number of reviews. One review means nothing, but if the same issue is mentioned in 30 % of the reviews, that's likely quite valid.

A key component to the idiocies that are peddled in this vast community of TLJ haters is that the badness of this movie was something that wrecked SOLO's chances to succeed. It's like everything else these people say, they take a bunch of facts and then construe an entire silly narrative that caters to their idiocies.

Of course, a simpler explanation is that the movie was too close, it was by far too uninteresting, it had production problems from the get go, there was no hype for it whatsoever, and the word of mouth was "meh it's alright I guess". This doesn't drive sales through the roof.

I loved TLJ, and guess what. I didn't go see SOLO. The thought of doing that never even crossed my mind.

So no, Mika, once again, you're wrong. I guess there's a consistency to admire here.

Taking a bunch of facts and then constructing a so called "narrative" that fits the facts is called analysis. Doing this stuff for a company is part of my actual job.

Your simpler explanation fails to take account other movie franchises; there Marvel vs Star Wars audiences are then assumed to behave differently (Star Wars fans get fatigued while Marvel's don't). Nobody provides any grounds for this. If the audience behavior differs, then provide the reasons why and how they differ. Furthermore, name me one person who didn't want to see the continuation to Empire Strikes Back within 6 months instead of waiting three years when they were originally made?

Production problems are nothing new for Star Wars. New Hope was marred with them too, and eventually saved in the editing phase. Movie being uninteresting and lacking hype are the more likely explanations, but this is not where you should stop if you actually want to find the root cause of issues. The question is, why is there no hype and why is the movie uninteresting? If people didn't see the movie to begin with, so how could they tell it's not interesting? If the movie premise was uninteresting, how come that's the case? There's a rather amusing speculation of why that came to be but that's no longer discussion from the management point of view.

Oh I thought it was 200 million like the other movies, and since it's made more than 200 domestically-  either way that sounds more of a Solo problem not a Last Jedi problem. 

Is it Last Jedi's fault that Howard decided to re-shoot 70% of the movie? That's probably why the budget is as high as it is. Filming is the most expensive part of production and the dude essentially did it twice

Think about it. Break even is nowhere near good enough. A movie with a production cost of 200 millions should make about 600 millions to break even. To actually make it worth it, the gross needs to be more than 800 millions (leads to about 25 % profitability for the studio before the corporate taxes). Re-shooting 70 % the movie is indeed no fault of Last Jedi, though I don't think anybody has claimed it is. Howard was actually hired to re-shoot the movie, so doing that wasn't his decision. It came from either Lucasfilm or Disney. The same thing happened with Rogue One, Gareth Edwards was sidelined at some point, although the re-shoots were not as extensive as they were with Solo.

But the big problem is not really in the production costs (100 mils isn't particularly much to absorb for Disney), but the bigger thing is: the movie has made ~ 50 % of what it was supposed to. So where's half the audience that was supposed to come? And will that be a continuing trend? Luis above said it won't be, while I've been saying it will. You've seen my reasoning as well why I think so: Last Jedi merchandise sales crash and video sales are also down by a whopping 68 % compared to Force Awakens. The rejection started with Last Jedi, accounted for Solo, and will likely continue to Ep. IX. It can happen that Last Jedi is forgiven over the next 1.5 years, but I wouldn't bet my money on it. JJ Abrams wasn't particularly impressive as a director, and any good will there was for Force Awakens (induced by inclusion of nostalgia characters and the set-up) is likely drastically reduced.

I'm starting to think I've pretty much said what I wanted to say at this point.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Taking a bunch of facts and then constructing a so called "narrative" that fits the facts is called analysis. Doing this stuff for a company is part of my actual job.

I wonder how you even manage to keep it.

Quote
Your simpler explanation fails to take account other movie franchises; there Marvel vs Star Wars audiences are then assumed to behave differently (Star Wars fans get fatigued while Marvel's don't). Nobody provides any grounds for this. If the audience behavior differs, then provide the reasons why and how they differ. Furthermore, name me one person who didn't want to see the continuation to Empire Strikes Back within 6 months instead of waiting three years when they were originally made?

Solo wasn't a sequel. If Episode IX released 6 months after VIII, then you would have some correct measure of a sort, although I think the years help to build up the hype. Regarding Marvel, it's a completely different universe, and people know it. All of their movies are different, and they have their unique backstory with already thousands of pages of material written, decades old and well established. Each of these movies come with different concepts, and so Black Panther will hype itself in a completely different way than Wasp. Thor Ragnarok will market itself utterly differently of Doctor Strange. And so on. They are able to keep the pace because (1), they trust their directors to do their own thing, (2), they can actually experiment (see Ragnarok, see Guardians), (3) they have tons of material to write from.

Star Wars is way smaller than people realise. It's almost entirely about a single family and a few friends, despite the backdrop of galactic proportions. So, of course, when you try to make spin offs, the board at Disney is at odds at what they can do. They have no idea. Rogue Squadron was a kind of an exception, because they actually took the time to create a new story that could be anchored in ANH, but these guys will just do things that are too obvious, and thus boring. "Hey, we know you like the Millenium Falcon! And Solo! Let's make a new film called... ahhhh.. SOLO!" Then, they'll do this movie called KENOBI, or another movie called "I_RECOGNIZE_THIS". It's pandering to the lowest denominator. Once you see the title of the movie, you basically know you've seen it in your head.

MARVEL does not suffer from this lack of material to create new movies from. All they have to decide is what movies *not* to create, because once someone says "Captain Marvel is greenlit", they all basically know what to do. In Star Wars, they have no idea. So they just rehash the same kinds of people, the same kinds of robots, the same kinds of biomes, aesthetics and so on.

Quote
Production problems are nothing new for Star Wars. New Hope was marred with them too, and eventually saved in the editing phase.

A New Hope wasn't reshot almost entirely. Try again.

Quote
The question is, why is there no hype and why is the movie uninteresting? If people didn't see the movie to begin with, so how could they tell it's not interesting? If the movie premise was uninteresting, how come that's the case? There's a rather amusing speculation of why that came to be but that's no longer discussion from the management point of view.

I have already written about this: there's no good "lore" to write these new spinoff movies.

 

Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars is way smaller than people realise. It's almost entirely about a single family and a few friends, despite the backdrop of galactic proportions. So, of course, when you try to make spin offs, the board at Disney is at odds at what they can do. They have no idea. Rogue Squadron was a kind of an exception, because they actually took the time to create a new story that could be anchored in ANH, but these guys will just do things that are too obvious, and thus boring. "Hey, we know you like the Millenium Falcon! And Solo! Let's make a new film called... ahhhh.. SOLO!" Then, they'll do this movie called KENOBI, or another movie called "I_RECOGNIZE_THIS". It's pandering to the lowest denominator. Once you see the title of the movie, you basically know you've seen it in your head.

Rogue One is a really good movie that used the franchise to tell a story that the franchise so far hasn't attempted to tell. It was also from the ground up designed to feed directly into A New Hope, from its story to its tone. It's a gritty war story in which, at the beginning, all hope is lost; everyone is rather cynical and going through the motions not because they think they can defeat the Empire, but because it's the only thing that is left for them to do. The mission they execute is a forlorn hope, a desperate last shot before the Empire actually, truly, becomes undefeatable, and it is pulled off at great cost.
When Leia says "Hope", at the end, it represents a shift in tone that leads gently from the war epic of Rogue One to the naive optimism of Luke Skywalker staring at the Suns.

Rogue One also uses its mandatory cameos from established characters really well. Darth Vader appears as a holy terror of a man, a true monster that is as unstoppable as the Death Star. Tarkin is established as a ruthless schemer and backstabber, Mon Mothma and the rest of rebel high command are established (and Bail Organa gets a sendoff) as well-meaning but kiiiiinda ineffective.

So, why was Rogue One a success and Solo was not? Leaving aside the notion of people cooling on Star Wars (which may be a factor, but not a big one imho), Rogue One had amazing trailers. There are shots in those that are immediately intriguing and beautiful (that beauty shot of a Star Destroyer in front of a starfield that, a frame later, is established as the Death Star's shadowed side was amazing). The story has a good dirty dozen vibe to it, and as mentioned above, it wasn't one we've seen the franchise try to tell yet.
Solo, on the other hand, takes the most boring story possible from its starting premise. Han Solo is a smuggler and a scoundrel from a world of smugglers and scoundrels, so what story do we tell? A heist movie.
Nothing wrong with that, of course; heist movies are popular for a reason. But then they made the mistake of banking on interest in the characters as opposed to banking on interest in the story or actors; the pitch wasn't "watch Han Solo deal with something he hasn't dealt with" (like, for example, life as a new father with Leia; believe it or not, that's a movie I'd actually watch) or "watch a bunch of the highest profile actresses in cinema do a heist movie", the pitch was "See how Han Solo got his blaster and spaceship and cool yeti friend".

That, to put it mildly, is not a solid pitch to audiences. It could have been, of course: If the film had cast more high-profile actors (Danny Glover is great, yes, as is Woody Harrelson, but they are not by themselves audience draws, and if her past few appearances have told us anything, it's that Emilia Clarke isn't that great either), or given us something that seems like a n interesting story (like having Han start off somewhere not scoundrelly, for example).

That people collectively went Meh at it is really not surprising. I do not remember any point where I saw people genuinely hyped for the thing (unlike Rogue One!).

Quote
MARVEL does not suffer from this lack of material to create new movies from. All they have to decide is what movies *not* to create, because once someone says "Captain Marvel is greenlit", they all basically know what to do. In Star Wars, they have no idea. So they just rehash the same kinds of people, the same kinds of robots, the same kinds of biomes, aesthetics and so on.

Regarding aesthetics: Take a look at the leading ladies of Star Wars films so far. For some reason, they've all been petite white brunettes. Why is that, I wonder?

Quote
Quote
Production problems are nothing new for Star Wars. New Hope was marred with them too, and eventually saved in the editing phase.

A New Hope wasn't reshot almost entirely. Try again.

ANH was saved in the edit, yes. Using material that was shot on location. If you look at behind the scenes documentaries of the prequel trilogy, it becomes apparent that that's just how Lucas operates: Shoot a lot of material on stage and then find the movie in the edit. ANH was an instance of the system working as designed; Solo was an instance of the studio trying to salvage a project that, for some reason or another, stalled out.

Quote
I have already written about this: there's no good "lore" to write these new spinoff movies.

All the spinoffs can do is to reinvent the old SWEU in 120 minute intervals. That may lead to good results, like Rogue One, but it can also lead to Solos. I do not want to see the film equivalent of, say, Darksaber; every Star Wars movie takes a much greater risk than any given Marvel film as you've pointed out and so there's little room for errors of the sort that happened during Solo.
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Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Mika, 90% of those user reviews on aggregators are just a score plus a badly spelled rant (or even just a "Dis movie suX coz SJW!!!"), you can do that on a smartphone or tablet easily or ye know, using bots.

PS: Most people that start with tablets or smartphones write a lot with them, it's mostly us computer nerds that have problems if they don't have a mouse and a full sized keyboard because we know better, hell I saw my cousin write long e-mails on a fricking i-pad.

Actually, no. If you start to ignore negative one liner reviews, you should do so for the positive ones as well (there's quite a bunch of them as well if you look through the reviews), and if not, then why not? Written text reviews are actually a minority, most of the people rate the movie just by giving the score number. E-mails are about the longest thing you can write with a mobile or pad. Pads and phones are mostly used for one line at a time chat communications, not writing reviews. If you use Pad for professional writing and text editing work, you really are wasting time. Of course, that's one way to make oneself look busy, though.

The written reviews, for those who wanted to say something about their rating, are a sample of the entire number of reviews. One review means nothing, but if the same issue is mentioned in 30 % of the reviews, that's likely quite valid.
There are a lot of people that literally don't have a computer and still go around *****ing and writing wall of texts on forums and message boards, either that or all those "sent from iPhone" signatures are for show.
Also, I've specified LONG e-mails IIRC.

Also mob mentality can make people point out the same issue, especially if it's ideological ad probably parroting idiots with a large audience like certain youtubers or Jordan Peterson.
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
MARVEL does not suffer from this lack of material to create new movies from. All they have to decide is what movies *not* to create, because once someone says "Captain Marvel is greenlit", they all basically know what to do. In Star Wars, they have no idea. So they just rehash the same kinds of people, the same kinds of robots, the same kinds of biomes, aesthetics and so on.

Thing is, they can pull a lot from the Extended Universe, in the same way that Marvel is pulling from the comics. I mean, you could argue that most of the EU is kinda crap, but so is most of Marvel's comic history, and a lot of Marvel's success has not been about rehashing stuff most people already know, but looking at underappreciated or underdeveloped material and putting it in a new light (BLACK PANTHER). Disney already has plenty of creative talent that is willing to put out some interesting pitches in the new extended universe stuff: The comics, for instance.

Even then, none of this was present in Solo's marketing push.

 

Offline Bryan See

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
You've failed to mention before the film there was a teaser trailer about Mortal Engines during opening day; now ME has an official trailer.
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
If you're talking about the trailers that run before a movie in a thread about that movie, then the movie was bad.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Bryan See

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I guess so.

So, what of anything of interest?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Plinkett does his thing.

Scathing review. But it's well done.


 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Overall I am pretty ambivalent about the film there are certainly parts I liked, but man there was a lot of Fridge Logic.  Well, actually not even Fridge Logic since I remember being irritated at times at the theater.
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Offline Firesteel

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I remember disliking most of the humor that wasn't the Rey/Luke stuff and feeling like, as RLM talks about there and in HitB, so much of the movie was filler. The Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff was the only thing that advanced, everything else went in a circle.

I thought the way they ended the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff actually worked but since it was so spread out and constantly being cut away from, I don't think it had the same impact it should've (and why people think it should have ended when Kylo asks Rey to join him).

I can't remember if I said it here or not but I generally liked the Finn/Rose dynamic, they just had nothing to do and the script gave them little to work with. The core idea behind Finn being stopped from pointlessly sacrificing himself is fine, the execution is just bad and makes everyone involved look like an idiot.

Similar to the Holdo/Poe stuff. There was a way to make that relationship actually work and not make everyone involved stupid for plot beats to happen. What they wanted to do would have been far more effective if Poe knew what Holdo was planning and still acted like a hothead idiot and went behind her back. She'd still be write and him acting like a complete idiot would actually come across better (and Leia's line about Holdo's sacrifice, if we're still being dumb about killing Holdo instead of Leia) would carry more weight.
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Plinkett does his thing.

Scathing review. But it's well done.


Couldn't make it two minutes in without getting tired of his bull**** persona.

Is there a summary of his arguments somewhere?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline rubixcube

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Plinkett does his thing.

Scathing review. But it's well done.


Couldn't make it two minutes in without getting tired of his bull**** persona.

Is there a summary of his arguments somewhere?

Really? You don't like his persona?
Damn Germans, no sense of humor  :P

I can't summarize the whole thing, but some of his points were

1. The film overall felt overstuffed
2. The script suits a comedy film more than an action adventure
3. Leia should've done the hyperspace kamikaze in stead of purple haired lady
4. Leave Luke out of the film after Rey leaves his planet
5. End the film just as Kylo asks Rey to join him
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 01:41:10 am by rubixcube »
Stuff

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I can kinda agree with him on 5. That would have been a cool ending. As for 3, well no one knew Carrie was going to be taken from us, and they already killed Han in part 7 so I can't blame them for not wanting to look like they were planning to wipe out all of the original cast.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
6. The myriad of fridge logic, and there was a lot.

7.  Tonal dissonance.  The aforementioned awkward comedy.  Rey going through traumatic arc similar to Luke in ESB and still being "Yippie! shooting TIEs in the Falcon is fun" after it all.  The fact that the film ends on a cheery note despite the Resistance basically being wiped out to 12 survivors in a stock light freighter.

8.  TFA was generally criticized for being a psuedo copy of ANH.  On the surface TLJ subverted a lot of tropes.  However, when you break it down beat by beat its almost formulaic in taking the plot points of ESB and simply doing the opposite.

9.  Not actually focusing on a particular storyline.  Instead of having an A storyline: Rey/Luke/Kylo with the space chase as the B storyline we have more storylines than needed and none get the focus to standout.

If you can get past the dumb persona the Plinket Reviews of Star Wars films actually do provide a pretty in depth analysis of the content.  It's not the typical "Wah Wah they ruined my SW" crap that seems to be drowning my YouTube feed.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 09:39:40 pm by StarSlayer »
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