Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Wiki Project => Topic started by: Lonestar on July 22, 2004, 04:19:29 pm
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Hello All,
This post is in regards to the FS Doc, of which I'm the new administrator for. :)
http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/
I would like to gather some opinions and suggestions about the FS Doc from all HLP'ers to make the FS Doc experience easier and more intuitive for all who are concerned.
This doesn't mean all requests will be honored, rather they will be considered seriously and added if not detrimental to any other aspects of the FS Doc program.
You may contact me via ICQ or MSN located in my profile or post it here. Try to be as specific as you can, even provide links and examples of what your talking about so we can get through it as quickly as possible.
Thanks in advance for the help! :)
Also post any content addition you think are required either by quoting the new content, or linking to it.
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Fix the line width.
It makes the whole thing practically unreadable. It used to be set to something sensible but now it wraps at about 80 characters.
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In regards to the line width, I changed that to be that width. I'll explain why, and then leave it up to you all to decide what to do.
Look at any major or semi-major news site. They all have the text columns relatively narrow. The reason is that the eye has trouble traversing the width of todays screens from the end of one line to the beginning of the next without losing it's place. So especially in sites with lots and lots of nothing but text (forums don't qualify, as you have the breaks between posts, which help tremendously), the line width needs to be kept small.
Now the problem with specifying a line width is that the crappy IE browser doesn't allow a flexible min-width / max-width to be set. One unchanging width is all IE will support, and that needs to be narrower than not, because if it is set too wide, people with narrow screens would have to scroll left-right with every line if the text went beyond the screen width - a major no-no.
Thus, the easy-to-read narrow columns in all of today's major news sites.
So... now that you are armed with the same information, reasoning, and logic that I made the decision on - your choice. :)
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At 800x600 Resolution the FSDOC fits fine, although the table width could be slightly larger its not too small. With different resolution sizes on the internet and a majority still being 800x600, im forced to design the wiki with that in mind.
It may be set wider, but dont expect a dramatic increase. My guess is that it seems far to small to you because your resolution is higher then 1024 x 768, if that is in fact the case try resizing your resolution to be a bit smaller to read the FS Doc Easier.
I could also use percentages but this is dependant on the current template which i havent looked at entirely. Ill do my best to make it bigger but i must appease the majority of surfers first.
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Suggestion; Make a mirror to the latest patch that actually works. Currently the patch is linked to www.freespace2.com which has been down for some time.
:)
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my bigest concern is that too few people are adding to it. also alot of descriptions for things seem inacurate. id also rather programers list instructions for new features there instead of in the forums. alot of people will cut and paste and thats fine. its just if someone sumerizes for a programer they may simply leave out important details. other than that it was a pretty good idea to have it the way it is.
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Originally posted by Nuke
my bigest concern is that too few people are adding to it. also alot of descriptions for things seem inacurate. id also rather programers list instructions for new features there instead of in the forums. alot of people will cut and paste and thats fine. its just if someone sumerizes for a programer they may simply leave out important details. other than that it was a pretty good idea to have it the way it is.
Hmmm, any ideas as to how to make people more interested in posting stuff in the FS Doc? Is it too hard to login? Registration problems? Maybe forum user integration would be useful so you dont need to remember an extra login?
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Toss the bloody wikiword loginname requirement. That'll save you a lot of problems already.
More forum intergration would be great, though.
Can we switch from [ link ] to [[ link ]] ? It makes ordinary texts a lot easier, and there are other things that use straight brackets. Double brackets, wikipedia style, are easier, IMHO.
(Yes, it'll cause a lot of work, but a single "link changer" should be able to do that, right?
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Hmmm, any ideas as to how to make people more interested in posting stuff in the FS Doc?
how about avatars for people who add to it. or make an entry add to thei post count. its kinda hard to make people want to take the time to add something. if adding to the wiki increases one's status in the comunity it might be enough to make them use it.
Is it too hard to login? Registration problems?
it was abit trickey the first time i used it, i had to get help. it was just me not interpreting the instructions properly. it all came down to me not knowing what a wiki word was.
Maybe forum user integration would be useful so you dont need to remember an extra login?
it would be nice. if it would make adding to the wiki no different than posting on the forum.
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Originally posted by Lonestar
At 800x600 Resolution the FSDOC fits fine, although the table width could be slightly larger its not too small. With different resolution sizes on the internet and a majority still being 800x600, im forced to design the wiki with that in mind.
It's actually set to fit in a 640x480 window, but I'd be surprised if any of us still use that resolution.
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I dont go that low in resolution to check websites, considering no one uses that low a resolution. Ok maybe a small percentage does, if they do they deserve side scroller bars!
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Why make it screen-size specific?
Design it so it scales!
My challenge to you now is to make it so I can read it comfortably in Opera on an 800x600 screen and comfortably in NetFront on a 320x480 screen :p
Oh, and in Lynx on an 80x25 character screen :D
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Originally posted by Cyker
Why make it screen-size specific?
Design it so it scales!
My challenge to you now is to make it so I can read it comfortably in Opera on an 800x600 screen and comfortably in NetFront on a 320x480 screen :p
Oh, and in Lynx on an 80x25 character screen :D
:eek2:
I could design for the three or four seperate platforms, and use a javascript to detect your browser and settings and then redirect you to the proper pages for your screen size.
Are their any serious browser issues to report besides the size of the content displayed? If not i dont think ill be setting the wiki up for 80x25 anytime soon. Maybe a downloadable Scaleable wiki doc, based on the DB Backup of the Wiki system. So if something is added to the wiki you simply download your desired document and sizes for quick local reference.
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I think the big issue is what information is actually put into the thing. Most people look at it and go "hey, that's pretty cool," but that's it. They don't know what specific information needs to be put in the thing. If a list of wanted information is put up, perhaps it would make it build up quicker. I know, the idea is for it to grow as people come up with new information, but you have to start somewhere.
I suggest starting with the cold, vanilla Freespace information that I started (and stopped due to lack of time, energy and interest) some time ago. Litterally rip the information straight from the tables and post it (with explinations and the like). From there, we move on to modding, Freding, etc, etc.
The wiki login is confusing as well. Took me forever to figure it out.
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Something I was looking up today. Table explantions. There are only 3 up there now, and none of the ones I was after. If I knew wtf I was doing I would update them myself, but then I wouldnt have been looking for them.....
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I could contribute a few things here, but as Eishtmo said, I'm not sure what exactly is wanted. My ship database (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/procyon/fs2sd.rtf) seems like it might fit in here (more comprehensive than Sandwich's :D), but I need to put this into html first and give it a cleaner look.
Also, it would be useful to make a distinction between official and unofficial information. There were many (sensible) extrapolations from existing facts which, although great to have in there, should somehow be labelled as being not strictly canon, and also one or two references to things entirely from user campaigns, which should probably not be in there.
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Originally posted by Cyker
Why make it screen-size specific?
Design it so it scales!
My challenge to you now is to make it so I can read it comfortably in Opera on an 800x600 screen and comfortably in NetFront on a 320x480 screen :p
Oh, and in Lynx on an 80x25 character screen :D
Dude, have you even TRIED to view the Wiki on those platforms? It scales perfectly as-is. :D
Originally posted by CP5670
Also, it would be useful to make a distinction between official and unofficial information. There were many (sensible) extrapolations from existing facts which, although great to have in there, should somehow be labelled as being not strictly canon, and also one or two references to things entirely from user campaigns, which should probably not be in there.
Agreed - perhaps something along the lines of www.ditl.org where they color-code information according to canoninity.
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That'd be nice, especially with some [ canon ] [ /canon ], or [ ncanon ] [/ ncanon] tags.
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Originally posted by Thorn
Something I was looking up today. Table explantions. There are only 3 up there now, and none of the ones I was after. If I knew wtf I was doing I would update them myself, but then I wouldnt have been looking for them.....
Before he was swallowed by a black hole Galemp gave me permission to put his VPView FAQ on the wiki (well actually the HLP FAQ but it's pretty much the same thing). His explaination of the tables is pretty good and may have what you're after.
In fact I'm quite happy to see anything from my FAQ cut and paste into the wiki as long as I don't have to do it all :D
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I'd suggest a crash course, explaining the relationship that the mediaVPs, exes, and the launcher all have with each other. Something more technical than the installing instructions, that introduce new users to the concept of filesystem priority, how to effectively build a freespace 2 directory tree, and maybe some stuff on how tables work. Something that would give a general overview of 'common-sense' modding stuffs and how it relates to fs2_open.
I've been meaning to write it up for about a month, but haven't had the motivation to do it all - so I'd recommend that if anyone's interested, they feel free to do it themselves.
Uhm, hmm...something else I'd like to see would be a "major features" discussion, with such things as shinemapping, glowmapping, and (of course) modular tables/hud_gauges table :thepimp:. This would be more aimed at modmakers and technical types, and where you'd check to get info on the Big New Features That Could Really Help Your Campaign. (Go ahead and use that for the page name, I won't mind ;))
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Thanks for all the suggestions,ill begin work tomorrow afternoon on this and we will see where it takes us.
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One more thing...an FAQ with questions that are REALLY asked too much. FS3, the usual bugs and such. This (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php/Bugs) is the current bugs section of the FAQ.
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I'd never noticed that there even was a FAQ before. It really should be more prominent on the page and should act as something of an index.
Do that and I can retire my own FAQ.
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The SCP FAQ is something I started on before we went onto the great manual.
Someone should really work through all the pages and look at the stuf I already got from the readme, and see if there is anything not outdated yet. Half of the stuff is just a stub anyway.
BTW, Lonestar, can we get {{ msg: stub}} (minus the spaces) like in Wikipedia, plus a page with a stublist?
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Im not entirely familiar with Wikipedia, however any option can be added with some work. I may also try something different, Ill be looking over the information and request more closely tomorrow and begin coding. if it does get to hard to modify the current code i will introduce some of my own and add all requested materials.
Ill also try and familiarize myself with the Wikipedia tonight to gain an understanding of your request.
I will make it a one stop shop for FS Faqs and definitions.
My ICQ number is in my profile, hook up with me tomorrow on IM to see whats up.
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I meant some easy boilerplates, adding code for a "stub message" saying something like:
"This article is a stub (link explaing stubs), you can help the HLPWiki by editing it. (Link to "edit this article)."
And the code adds the article to a listing of all stubs, and when the message is removed, it drops from the list.
Some of the same idea could be used for canon/non-canon code, though I'd prefer font changes there.
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Oh yes, something else I'd like, "talk pages". Every page has a talk page, called talk:pagename. It's a place to discuss that specific page, where everybody edits it to leave a message. Easier then just throwing it all at the bottom of the page, as we do now. Neater, too.
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Great initiative, folks. Front page. :)
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys we got all this week to continue discussions while i update the wiki so dont be shy!.
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Suggestions
- Compatibility across browsers: I saw some tables going off the page earlier.
- Different color scheme: Even though its on the HLP network I see the WIKI as a separate project just like the SCP is and some light red colors also don't contrast well on the current one.
- Less items in bold: I fail to see the point of putting every link in bold
- Front page: Have items that are recent with a 'new icon' next to them, for example ones that have been updated within the past 7 days or something or even different colors to show that its recently updated or added.
SCP: However much I like the idea of the WIKI, its a total disaster with the SCP documentation and any related updates (eg. Media VP) or enhancements (nebulas, thrusters, etc) that change constantly. I think it would be in the best interest of all parties involved that the version-specific and basic user documentation is provided in another format such as rtf/pdf/htm. This could be provided with the SCP downloads and perhaps have minor updates along the way. Not only will this solve much confusion on the SCP but it would also solve other issues such as not having to be online to view documentation.
I have more but I thought I'd posted later once I've seen some updates. :D
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Originally posted by Xelion
SCP: However much I like the idea of the WIKI, its a total disaster with the SCP documentation and any related updates (eg. Media VP)
That section appears to be up to date actually.
Originally posted by Xelion
I think it would be in the best interest of all parties involved that the version-specific and basic user documentation is provided in another format such as rtf/pdf/htm. This could be provided with the SCP downloads and perhaps have minor updates along the way. Not only will this solve much confusion on the SCP but it would also solve other issues such as not having to be online to view documentation.
That's not a bad idea but once the wiki issues are sorted the info can be culled from the Wiki. If you've ever tried to keep any SCP stuff up to date you'll soon see what an absolute nightmare it is to not slip behind.
Taking the info from the wiki would mean that there was only one set of data that needed any serious amount of human interaction to keep up to date.
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I would like to see a fast link to DL the latest of everything. It took me quite a while last night to find everything.
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There was a latest version of everything page but unfortunately it's not updated often (unless someone has taken it over).
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Work has been done all week on the FSDoc with these changes in mind, however with all the requests its going to take another week to complete.
Ill be posting some updates on Monday and next Friday, by which time it should be completed. Continue to send in suggestions as i will go over this post frequently.
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Given the stuff that's been kicked up with real ram usage now that the leak itself is fixed, I reckon it'd be cool to have a reccomended settings page for FSO, based on amount of RAM, to keep the game playable, but maximize graphical goodness for those who can get it.
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how do I actually edit hte pages on the wiki? I dont seem to have an account to do so..
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It really isn't that hard to update things to keep up with the SCP section. If there was a group willing to write a page a day from scratch, they could keep up with the SCP pretty well. A lot of times when a new feature is released the coder in question supplies support info or even examples for it; all the wiki writers need to do is polish it up for the documentation.
Alas, it seems more like updates are more on the scale of a paragraph a week.
Singh: you don't need an account, just enter a username and password and sign in. Or maybe just a username.
It does have to be a proper Wiki name, which is (dumbly enough) a word that is broken up into two sections by a capital. Like, WmCoolmon instead of WMCoolmon.
You might be able to get away with spaces or hack 'em in with a %20, I haven't tried though.
Edit: Originally posted by karajorma
That section appears to be up to date actually.
Hey, someone actually reads it. :D
Right now it's only missing the mVP lite.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
It really isn't that hard to update things to keep up with the SCP section. If there was a group willing to write a page a day from scratch, they could keep up with the SCP pretty well. A lot of times when a new feature is released the coder in question supplies support info or even examples for it; all the wiki writers need to do is polish it up for the documentation.
Alas, it seems more like updates are more on the scale of a paragraph a week.
Singh: you don't need an account, just enter a username and password and sign in. Or maybe just a username.
It does have to be a proper Wiki name, which is (dumbly enough) a word that is broken up into two sections by a capital. Like, WmCoolmon instead of WMCoolmon.
You might be able to get away with spaces or hack 'em in with a %20, I haven't tried though.
Edit:
Hey, someone actually reads it. :D
Right now it's only missing the mVP lite.
K. I managed to login. I've got around 15-16 hours to go on my duty, and this is pretty much the onyl thing I can do, so guess i'll be updating like crazy :P
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15-16 hours? Is that one shift? :shaking:
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Originally posted by Setekh
15-16 hours? Is that one shift? :shaking:
No. 24 hour duty clerk. Nothing much, really, but its stay-in.
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I wasn't questioning whether the section is up to date. What I was questioning is the format its available in and what problems and confusion are associated with the WIKI currently. See when 3.6 was released a while back the page was thus updated, and I assume when and if a 3.7 is released the page will also be updated. At that time either some features will be changed or new ones added. What does dissappear is the old information for that official version.
My point is the WIKI is an up to date source and the SCP needs some basic user documentation that is version-specific and is available somewhere that it can be download. I see the WIKI as more of a recommendation then a requirement, its something users will goto when they need 'specific information' rather than required information.
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Not really. Specific docs are a ***** to make, especially because it changes so often. The old version are still available through page history, but no-one should be using an old build anyway.
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Old builds are somewhat substantially free of bugs, for example I'm running the 3.6 build right now and every time I close Freespace2 my computer lags for a minute or two, occasionally it'll only happen for a few seconds afterwards and in some circumstances I've got to restart the computer. As much as I like what’s happening around here, especially with the SCP I still don't see many users playing the game due to the lack of documentation and I fail to believe thats its
[list=1]
- A ***** to make documentation
- or old builds are bad
[/list=1]
Look its just a suggestion, I just think that adapting better practices now rather than later would be advantageous. Plus you'd be getting in more of the lower end of users who make up the majority of gamers.
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Xelion, with the memory leak dumped, and the lite build by Taylor on the way, minimum spec users should be looking forward, not back. Old builds are generally unssuported, because bugs get fixed.
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Originally posted by Xelion
As much as I like what’s happening around here, especially with the SCP I still don't see many users playing the game due to the lack of documentation and I fail to believe thats its
- A ***** to make documentation [/B]
Tell you what. See the Installing FS2_Open link in my Sig? Try keeping it perfectly up to date so that it shows how to install both 3.6 and the most recent build (i.e the two questions everyone asks about).
We'll see if in a month you aren't complaining about what a ***** it is to keep documentation up to date :D
Believe me it really is. The first time I updated that page it took me 2-3 HOURS to chase up all the information, write it down and get it all prettied up so that it was completely understandable. Within a month the entire page was obsolete. So again. Another 2-3 hours repairing, revising and making it more general so that it wouldn't go obsolete so quickly. This time it lasted a couple of months.
Documenting new features isn't so bad cause once they've been made they tend to stay the same but believe me it can be a real ***** to make docs for FS2_Open cause you're up against a very fast moving target.
If you want to try though go ahead :D
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I can see the problems with keeping things up to date, and really, unless we have a user willing to ensure its always up to date there is no way for us to keep up.
Ill do my best to find and enter all the info after ive completed the update to the wiki.
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karajorma read what I said earlier :nod:
I wasn't questioning whether the section is up to date.
Instead of further deliberation by me I'll have a go at it. You'll have to give me a few weeks because I have only so much spare time. It'll either be in xhtml or pdf format which can accompany the SCP or be downloaded separately. It's unlikely to be build specific but it'll contain basics and some advanced stuff. Really though, build specific documentation should be done by the people who create the builds and then that could be integrated with the rest of the documentation and revised if necessary. No-one can better document the product (eg. SCP, builds, etc) then the person who created or modified it.
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The problem is that it takes time to make documentation. That time is better spent by the programmers actually programming. :)
Xelion I wasn't talking about being build specific either. The changes between the pre 3.6 builds and the current ones are so large that the document I wrote ended up becoming either hard to read or incorrect.
The problem isn't so much staying up to date as future-proofing the document so that the person using it can deal with any changes. That is actually pretty hard cause instead of giving the user instructions they can follow step by step you instead have to give them a grounding in how FS2_Open works so that they can anticipate changes. Doing that without ending up with a document that is very hard or fustrating to follow is actually seriously difficult.
You've also got to remember that you have several different audiences. People using the HotU download will have different problems from those using retail. People who only want to play mulitplayer will have different requirements from people who only want to go through the main campaign again. And then you have people installing mods which if not done correctly can screw everything up.
Feel free to try though. Maybe you can do a better job than I did.
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The Wiki will be updated within 24 hours guys, sorry for delay.
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Originally posted by Xelion
SCP: However much I like the idea of the WIKI, its a total disaster with the SCP documentation and any related updates (eg. Media VP) or enhancements (nebulas, thrusters, etc) that change constantly. I think it would be in the best interest of all parties involved that the version-specific and basic user documentation is provided in another format such as rtf/pdf/htm. This could be provided with the SCP downloads and perhaps have minor updates along the way. Not only will this solve much confusion on the SCP but it would also solve other issues such as not having to be online to view documentation.
I have more but I thought I'd posted later once I've seen some updates. :D [/B]
I take full responsibility for the lack of updates. Updates will be forthcoming.
Lonestar:
1. can we get rid of these (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/themes/HLP/images/hlp_logo.png) that are next to every single out side link. They are annoying and take up space.
2. can we get redirects to work properly in tables. If we set them up as a link they goof up the table.
3. Do you have server info inorder to upload images?
4. Is there sum way that we can override all autoformatting rules?
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Unfortunately, Lonestar's had some RL issues that have taken priority, and he won't be able to help out like he thought he would. So I guess things are back in my lap for the Wiki.
In response to your questions... phpWiki isn't very flexible or user-friendly, and to be blunt, I don't like it. The general consensus around the net is that phpWiki is going nowhere, and that the MediaWiki is The Big Player™ (the Wikipedia runs on the MediaWiki). I'd love to move over to the MediaWIki, but there's a big problem: there's no data import from one to the other. :doubt:
Do you (and by "you" I mean all FSDoc contributors) think it would be realistic to manually import from one to the other?
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How hard would the editing be?
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I and the SCP support this change. Since we have to revamp the wiki anyway, this would be positive change. Also I hate the some the wiki's auto formatting feature or i should say drawbacks. Regaurdless of the problems, the Wiki in general is useful.
When you do move. keep the existing links to the old WIKI while we transfer everything(all info, not just the SCP) over. When every things done then replace all the link to the new Wikpedia.
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The editing is fairly easy to pick up, but it's also pretty powerful. You can try out and see what it's like with the Wikipedia - maybe add tons of content to the FS page or something. ;)
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Actually I meant how hard would it be to edit the existing Wiki Code to make it into Wikipedia style code. Would we have to change all the tags or just a couple?
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Originally posted by karajorma
Actually I meant how hard would it be to edit the existing Wiki Code to make it into Wikipedia style code. Would we have to change all the tags or just a couple?
Well, when all is said and done, it's pretty much Impossible. I'd rather copy-paste all the content from one system to the other than try and modify such things - I hate regexps with far-reaching repercussions. :doubt:
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OK.
I have been begging for mediaWiki for quite some time, and I feel I should be doing at least some of the transferring. But unless I become ill of health again, I'll be studying an awfull lot. Unless I can get some miracle of free time, I can't help with any more projects then I'm doing now. Mind, if someone could rig a system to output all the raw wikicode of the content pages into text files, and show me how to mass import wiki-code text pages into the mediawiki base, I could rig a wikicode converter. Mind it'd either be in C or QB, so I couldn't integrate it, but it'd work.
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I have a request - can tables be made less ugly, and/or the big table at the top of the 'Command-line reference' be removed? If people want a list of flags they can always check the launcher.
Duplicate information should be kept as minimal as possible, so that coders or whoever can easily update things in *one* spot without having to run around and update other parts of the wiki. I edited the Download Tools and Modelling pages so they weren't 90% identical information.
Also, style should be paid attention to. Pages should use header tags and such more like this:
!!!Page name
Maybe introduction text?
!!Section
Could be more introduction text
!A sub-section
Look, I'm talking about a specific subject!
!!Another section
!Item
*Description
!Item
*Description
!!Yet another section
!Item
An indent because it just looks so good
!Item 2
Look, ma, more indenting!
----
Some comments about how the information is out of date, the author was drunk while writing it, etc.
This example sponsored by WMCoolmon
Rather than this:
*The page header
!A section
!!!An individual item
descriptive text
!!!Another item
more descriptive text
This is where the credits go, but it's confusing at first whether they're credits or not because there's long, descriptive text on the same level as the last item and no divider.
Not only is it good and proper, it looks good and organized too. :p To be blunt and honest, go look at the pages I've done, I've always tried to make them organized and clear, because my writing usually isn't. ;) For the command line reference, I spent more than a half-hour trying out different ways to show the information to figure out what way would be best.
And just to be an arse, would it be possible to have an expandable list to the left of the page? This would make it incredibly easier to navigate the wiki.
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I have now written a new complete multiplayer guide. I hope this helps those of you that have been wanting to play FS2netD but havent been able to because you dont know how.
http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Getting%20Started%20with%20FS2netD
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Is there any possible way to recover/reset a password for a Wiki user? For reasons I cannot determine, I can't seem to access my account (Night Mare).
I went in there to do the last few Terran FS2 fighters and got trapped at the login page. It doesn't seem to be accepting the password I originally set, despite my having attempted to log in with it upwards of twenty times.
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You should be able to click on the "Password Forgotten" link, no?
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I was actualyl thinking of writting a compressed FS2Info file, but since I'm busy with my campaign, I have no idea if I will ever write it...
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Originally posted by Sandwich
You should be able to click on the "Password Forgotten" link, no?
WHAT password forgotten link? Where? I'm looking right at the sign-in page, and I don't see one.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
WHAT password forgotten link? Where? I'm looking right at the sign-in page, and I don't see one.
....oh. Hmm. Wow. That really sucks. I could have sworn there was a link there, but I can't find it now. Stupid, messed-up system... :hopping: :ick:
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The Wiki's fighting me again. Unable to log into my old account, I decide to creat a new one, finish off those last Terran Fighters, and add comments on the rest from a more "gameplay" perspective.
It's not letting me. I remember it requires at least two capital letters and two words, and am following those rules. What else is there?
EDIT: Wonder of wonders...it seems I have someone logged into my old Wiki account without intending to. Scratch post.
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Just thought I'd warn folks in case somebody wanders into the Wiki and wonders "What the hell happened here!?!"
I've added commentary from a player's perspective (clearly marked as such) to most of the FS1/FS2 combatant ships and player-useable weapons.
I'm also currently working on a listing for the capital craft of "Known Ships of the Class", and their fate if they met it ingame. As of now I think it's comprehensive for the Orion, Typhon, Mentu, and Deimos classes. I'm working through FS2 again to make a list of all the crusiers, Sobeks, and Molochs in the Main Campaign. Then I'll be doing the Port to get the cruisers from there...
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I did something like that a while ago:
http://home.comcast.net/~cp5670/fs2sd.rtf
It's been a long time but I think it has everything from all the official Volition missions. Feel free to use the info if you want.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I'm also currently working on a listing for the capital craft of "Known Ships of the Class", and their fate if they met it ingame. As of now I think it's comprehensive for the Orion, Typhon, Mentu, and Deimos classes. I'm working through FS2 again to make a list of all the crusiers, Sobeks, and Molochs in the Main Campaign. Then I'll be doing the Port to get the cruisers from there...
*points to siggy*
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His looks nicer but mine is more comprehensive. :D
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Deja vu. I remember having this debate a few years ago. :)
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I remember it too, now that you mention it. It feels like ages ago now.
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The Wiki porting is still going on, I hope, because a lot of stuff has been lost if the old Wiki got nuked completely.
And I'm an obsessive detail freak. :P I want to see each ship for myself so I can make absolutely sure. I've learned not to trust other people's sources unfortunately. :/
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We also now have FS Wiki Forum (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/board,122.0.html) if you haven't seen it by now. :)
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In which this thread now belongs. ;)
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Can someone with access to the basic layout tools alter the background colour for the category boxes? See the bottom of ships.tbl (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ships.tbl) to see what I mean.
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Making the background of the fixed-width boxes a little easier on the eyes wouldn't hurt either.
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They at least have black text in them, so they're easy enough to read. The Category box is all pink links.
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Yeah, they're not as bad, but the text boxes seem like they could still be a bit less...glaring. But maybe it's just my monitor.
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Is Lonestar due back any time soon? I feel like I should be collaborating with someone on some of this stuff - I've been making a lot of changes without any real consensus of late after all...
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Is Lonestar due back any time soon? I feel like I should be collaborating with someone on some of this stuff - I've been making a lot of changes without any real consensus of late after all...
Well, that's the idea of a Wiki. :D AFAIK, Lonestar is too busy with RL to be involved with HLP any more, so the Wiki has no central management (unless someone wants to step up to the plate). Not that that's a bad thing, of course. The forumites will just have to accept the responsibility of doing a good job with their respective edits. :)
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Well, that's the idea of a Wiki. :D AFAIK, Lonestar is too busy with RL to be involved with HLP any more, so the Wiki has no central management (unless someone wants to step up to the plate).
What would be involved?
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Um... I dunno. Probably setting the general direction of the wiki and every now and then reviewing other people's edits. Not much additional work I daresay.
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Lonestar was in charge of two main things during his (very) brief stint as Wiki admin. Firstly, there was the community oversight that Goob mentioned; coordinate people, keep an eye on the Wiki as a whole and identify weak spots that you might direct people to contribute towards. Secondly, there was a technical aspect to it - making calls on layout and structure decisions (like you already have with the front page). That's basically it.
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Well, if you need someone to do that sort of stuff I guess I can. I'm already doing it, as you say.
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I'm vaguely disturbed that some of my commentary seems to have disappeared even on those pages that have been ported...
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what happened to all my entries? just curious cause i cant seem to find them in the new system. i had a nice skybox tutorial as well as a vwep tutorial. is it possible to completely restor all the old wiki, then edit whats there to use the new layout as well as some edits to clean up everything.the new configuration, as it stands has a tiny fraction of the knoledge base it once had. it equates to burning down the library of alexandria, in order to put in a barnes and nobel.
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As soon as I get access to the old wiki I'm going to start porting. But that's in the hands of the admins for the moment, and they seem to have their hands full as it is.
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*bump*
Access to the old wiki is now restored: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,37752.0.html
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Has anyone noticed that the BSG project is not in the Wiki? :nervous:
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How about something about lightspeed's nebulae files?
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Whose idea was it to say the Eryines has theoritically no more firepower then the Myrmidon? 'cuz they need to be whacked with an FS2 box, repeatedly.
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You can edit the page yourself if want to or if you see reason to do so.. Just remember to add comments and arguments to the respective talk page, preferably using wiki signing (4 tildes, like so ~~~~)
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Has anyone noticed that the BSG project is not in the Wiki? :nervous:
A lot of projects aren't in the Wiki. Oodles of them, in fact.
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Any hope of getting wiki HLP theme back?
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Has anyone noticed that the BSG project is not in the Wiki? :nervous:
So put it in.
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He posted that nearly 6 months ago you know. Back to Wanderer's question, any chance of getting the HLP theme back?
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That might be a valid point if it weren't for the fact that it's still not in (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/User-made_Campaigns)! :p
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Good point
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Meep, I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I found a REALLY tiny error in the Capella section, in the "First Rakshasa" part, it states that the Rakshasa ambushed the Vigilant with a fighter wing. WRONG!!! The Rakshasa and THREE fighter wings ambushed the Vigilant... Um... Yeah. :p
Wee!! One more thing: in 'The Liberation of Epsilon Pegasi', when it describes the Enif Station attack, it totally disregards the NTC Outrage. :D
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So register and fix it :)
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That one artical has problems that I notice every now and then like the fact that it said that the first Rakshasa was presumabley the behemoth
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Fixed the link to Skippy's Campaign List; was pointing to the wrong place.
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Slash and burn job on the article on GTI; someone had written it up full of ST:R stuff. I almost completely rewrote it. If people would check me on that it would be good.
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Can I get someone to update the SCP entries regaurding fs.log for fs2_open in a couple of days.
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There is also a new "+fire-down-normals" ships.tbl subsystem entry which someone might want to add when they get the chance. See Mantis bug #591 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=591) for more details (or just ask me).
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Could someone consolidate and update the install guides listed in the "Getting Started" section? I was attempting to walk a newb through getting fs2_open set up without the launcher, and was struck by how difficult it was to just find the proper name for the Media VPs folder, much less get things installed from scratch.
I've got a new respect for those members who are able to do it on their own. I'm surprised we get any new players, given the lack of prominence of a download link and install guide.
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I'm just doing some updates to the wiki.
I'm finding that the link colour to pages in the wiki itself ( [[SOME PAGE]] ) is so similar to the text colour (or the same as) that I'm manually adding underline to links as some are just not apparent.
Any chance of having the links be a different colour or even automatically underlined by the wiki?
I know if will change the look a lot for those links on menus, but I just think the links in the text need to strand out more (unless it was already decided that we just underline links in the text ourselves?)
Cheers!
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I'm finding that the link colour to pages in the wiki itself ( [[SOME PAGE]] ) is so similar to the text colour (or the same as) that I'm manually adding underline to links as some are just not apparent.
Any chance of having the links be a different colour or even automatically underlined by the wiki?
This is the result of a misconfigured Wiki theme. The theme when you're logged in is supposed to look like the theme when you're logged out.
Who's the theme guy? Sandwich?
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Upgrade of the link colors has been requested many times..
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43252
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,40344.msg832630.html#msg832630
Also any chance of getting the huge [EDIT] tags in front of every section header (atleast on Firefox) replaced with similar quick link buttons as we had earlier? Like the ones like in the wikipedia... Small [edit] tag at the right edge of the screen at the same height.
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Thank you for changing the link color in FSwiki :yes:...
And then (sorry) another request.. could visited link color be also changed from #F0FFFF to something else?
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And then (sorry) another request.. could visited link color be also changed from #F0FFFF to something else?
Meep. Please do that.
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How about updating the pics of some ships?
We have the HTL ravana, the Typhon, Zeus, Loki and some other ships done, but those old pics are still there...
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I'll wait for the official 3.6.9 mediavps
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Not sure if this is the wiki thread or not, but I've been working on some random cleanups, anyone would like to work with me on rewriting the freespace 2 installation guides and download situation?
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Question.
Why don't the FreeSpace 2 Ship Databases include the ships from the demo? As far as I know they're fully canon.
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Because nobody has added them yet?
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Hmm... I thought there was some deep, philosophical answer to my question. I'll add them.
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GOOD GOD!!!
PLEASE tell me you didn't misspell maneuverability as "manuverability" in every single ship article!!! :eek2:
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lols... I misspelled it once and then copy-pasted it to all the rest of the entries :D
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Well, it's a good excuse to migrate the ship stats to a template as with the weapon stats, since we have to go through the lot of them anyway now. Already did the ground work and prepared a template for it (Template:Ship Stats (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Ship_Stats)), and also got a few of the ships done.
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While you (or me.. or any one) IMHO its better to also move the veteran comments to the end of the page instead of leaving those to the current position.
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Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. They're not canon and there's a ton of them on some of the pages, so giving them their own heading below everything else would eliminate a lot of scrolling just to get to the canon info about stats, armament etc.
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Some of the veteran comments are rubbish, too, BTW.
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While you (or me.. or any one) IMHO its better to also move the veteran comments to the end of the page instead of leaving those to the current position.
Just had a thought regarding this. In addition to moving the comments, wouldn't it also be a good idea to add a warning pointing out that all the following info is opinions, not facts? I'm thinking something in the style of Template:Note (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Note), just with all the info already there instead of having to type it in every time. Call it Template:Opinion, I guess. Sure it's a bit more work, but I only finished up like 8 or so of the ships so far, so wouldn't be that much hassle going back to fix those up before proceeding with the rest.
[Edit] Double brackets only work on the wiki. Oops :p
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First take... hopefully the last one too :)
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTF_Erinyes
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Comment
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Yeah, that looks good :) Way better this way than before.
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Going spelling/grammar nazi on the Veteran Comments, duck and cover. Also fixing/removing anything that seems blatantly factually wrong from them, and/or misattached entries. (Mara and Terran Mara come to mind; so does the Prometheus.)
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Spelling/grammar Nazi of the Veteran Comments completed, comments on the Terran Mara in the Shivan Mara's section moved, Prometheus O article fixed, some blantant factual errors fixed.
I'm also tempted to remove some of the "argument" comments, thoughts?
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Might be a good idea. It might also be good to prune or summarize some of the comments. It's clear from the ignorance displayed in some of them that veterans are not the only ones writing things there.
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Veteran Comments are mostly useless IMO.
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Veteran Comments are mostly useless IMO.
Less useless then the Tech Room entries about determining ship capablities.
EDIT
I hereby declare Veteran Comments Jihad and am going to eliminate anything I think is dealing with subjects other than ship, rewrite anything overly argumentive as well as just poorly written.
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So i take this calls for....
...no not a toga party...
...but!
EDIT... Image removed....
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Only if you get me better swords.
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Noooo... my artistic skills werent good enough....
Would you prefer more curved swords or WH40k chainswords :P
EDIT.. to get into proper tune i set the Persian Gulf Inferno intro music running and...
(http://koti.mbnet.fi/vekkup/FS2/Pics/FSW2_vetcom.png)
Better? :D
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Less useless then the Tech Room entries about determining ship capablities.
Those are canon. But comments like:
By far the ugliest ship in the game ever
is completely useless.
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I agree. Anything that doesn't in some way offer insights into the ship (strengths, weaknesses, problems, bugs, survivability, useful tricks, weapons placements, where to use/not use, all that stuff) really doesn't belong there.
As an example, if instead of simply saying the ship was ugly, that line said that the ship was ugly but the shape made it a damn hard target to hit, it would be ok. Because that's useful info that takes hours of playing to find out on your own.
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There are also other comments that are completely untested and are just guesses made to look like they are tested, like this one:
Incredibly dangerous to fighters and bombers. Recommended method of attack is to neutralise turrets at range with Maxim Cannons or Trebuchets, or allow friendly interceptors to provide faster moving targets in order to divert beam fire whilst bombers deliver their payload against this vessel.
That's complete crap. It has ONE SAAA and a few SHL and STL. It's only slightly more dangerous than a Cain. Incredibly dangerous is crap.
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Its still personal opinion.. And it has some merit. So even if you wouldn't agree on 'incredibly dangerous' it is still ok for him to say that.
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What are you talking about, the Rakshasa? If so, it's a personal opinion, but a pretty odd one. Veteran Comments should be reliable "verteran's" comments; they are opinions but should still have a certain degree of quality, or else they're worthless. This is FSWiki, not Wikipedia!
I'm in favor of fixing up the VCs. Allahu Wiki!
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Veteran Comments Jihad round two underway.
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Yeah, I'm beginning to see why Wikipedia doesn't like trivia sections. People are starting to treat Veteran Comments like blogs. And hardly anyone adds a Veteran Comment appears to qualify as a Veteran.
I'd be in favor of moving the Veteran Comments off the ship and weapon pages wholesale, and putting them in their own separate page, just like we did with the FS2 Inconsistencies.
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That I disagree with, at least for ships. The idea behind veteran comments is sound, it's just that they're being abused. Good veteran comments really help to point out the good and bad points of a ship well beyond what the simple stats and tech description show, and I think that kind of comments should stay. For the rest though, I think we should just ditch the "everyone is entitled to state their opinion" policy that has been in effect so far, and start aggressively weeding out the garbage... that's one Jihad I can fully support.
Some stuff I think is good (with examples):
- Info on special gun placements and which banks corrospond to which guns (Ursa's top-right gun, useless versus anything small)
- Warnings about any problems with the ship (Tauret can't really use Kaysers due to energy constraints)
- Weaknesses (weapons system on the Erinyes is extremely exposed. Think 95% hull and no weapons working)
And for capships:
- Blind spots (in front and ever so slightly above a Moloch, only a single blob turret can reach you)
- Special issues (the Azrael is effectively impossible to disable due to the engine placement)
There's more, I'm sure, but stuff like this is where it's at. Not comments like "this is the best/ugliest/fastest fighter" or other subjective things. It has to be about facts you have to deal with in-game if you fly or face that ship.
For weapons though, removing them altogether might be just as well. Unlike the ships, the listed stats really do show everything you need to know about a weapon. Well almost everything - We'd have to add energy drain to the stats listed, but if we do that, everything is covered.
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Yes, that kind of information is quite useful and is often not obvious at all. Some of the hardpoint placements in particular can have a big effect on how effective various ships and weapons are against different kinds of targets.
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I do not know where to post and i don´t want to open a new thread for it. so sorry in advance....
but i just want to mention, that you - of course - might use any picture i made during the cutscenes-wips also freely for the wiki if you want. the german wiki is already using them....
i.e.
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=gtm-9_interceptor (http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=gtm-9_interceptor)
br
icey
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There's a German FSWiki? Bad ass!
There's some nice high-res pics in the Marines article (as in Terran Marines you see in Hallfight). Also the ship articles are nice- they list the armament of every turret on the ship.
Oh, and as for your original question, I'll say, good idea. The Wiki could use more pictures. There's no shortage of pics we could add, just a shortage of people willing to post them.
Marines
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=marines&s=marines
Colossus article
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=gtva_colossus
Terraner Ash- "Zu Spat! ... AAAH!"
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=terraner_ash
Terran Command- "Multi-Tasking fähigkeit"
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=terraner_command
Hey thanks, Icey Jones. Interesting stuff.
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I do not know where to post and i don´t want to open a new thread for it. so sorry in advance....
but i just want to mention, that you - of course - might use any picture i made during the cutscenes-wips also freely for the wiki if you want. the german wiki is already using them....
i.e.
http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=gtm-9_interceptor (http://wiki.freespacegalaxy.de/doku.php?id=gtm-9_interceptor)
br
icey
Is that model in-gameable?
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Ok, time for a veteran comments redux. Over the last week or so as I've skimmed the latest additions, I've seen comments added that do nothing more than praise the sound of a weapon or add a lengthy metaphor to describe something that's already described in plain language. It has to stop, and frankly I was tempted to delete them on the spot, but the truth of the matter is that we don't have a real policy for them. Sure, we've discussed them and pretty much agreed that useless comments suck, but how many of the people editing the wiki are likely to have followed that particular discussion, let alone find it later by reading through this lenghty thread? So I'm suggesting two things:
1: Make a protected wiki page that has guidelines for editing and adding to the wiki, most definitely including the fact that veteran comments should include information that's useful to the player either flying/facing/using the ship/weapon.
2: Add a prominent link to this page to both the login screen and the edit screen, or perhaps .- if we feel really draconian - even have some kind of confirmation page after login where you have to acknowledge that you've read the guidelines.
Once we have that, we can actually defend wiping out the comments that violate the guidelines, and people will not be able to plead ignorance when making bogus edits. I can take care of point 1, but 2 will probably require an admin.
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Motorized rickshaw. Complete piece of crap.
Some ships in this game have comments referring to bombers sneezing on them to kill them, all a wounded GTF Valkyrie or PVF Anubis has to do is look at it and this thing dies.
Ever wonder what those weird little pods on the side are for? They look like tiny containers. Maybe Shivans live in waxy cells, like bees
These are the sort of Veteran Comments that should be retained. They are very useful and tell you a lot about the capabilities of certain ships.
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Is that model in-gameable?
Looks like the ship loadout render or something. In any case, odds are that but Volition has it lying around.
Got the ball rolling. Critique. Discuss.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Veteran_comments_policy
Also changed the VC template.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Comment
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Good start :) We can use the talk page for the policy article to iron out the details (note: I actually think it looks fine as it is, but others may disagree), and once it's done I'll protect it so we won't have any bogus edits there.
And then... then we can go on a crusade againt useless nonsense in the comments.
[Edit] And great idea adding the policy link to the comments template itself. That's a far more elegant solution than what I suggested.
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And then... then we can go on a crusade againt useless nonsense in the comments.
The Jihad is already underway.
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The blog thing is an interesting point (Veteran comments). It'd be interesting to see something like that, but with veteran comments. However it's probably impractical for the wiki.
Other than that, I'd like to add that I don't think that a solution will be found through codified rules. I think it's just going to have to be a consensus thing. And I strongly disagree with Snail's first and third comments. The first has a complete lack of explanation - it doesn't explain why the thing is a complete piece of crap. It's nothing more than an utterly subjective outburst of opinion. The third is wild speculation. The second has some value, but it's put in such vague and artistic terms that you can't really tell what it's getting at beyond restating the obvious. The third is unsubstantiated speculation.
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Yeah that's the sort of thing we're trying to get away from. Snail just lives in opposite-world so you have to reverse the condition on everything he says. Anyway, it won't be any sort of codified ruleset, just some very general guidelines and examples for what's good and what's bad, in order to force people to exercise some common sense and avoid comments like the above.
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I think Snail's post was sarcasm. :p
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I went on an edit spree marking all of ITA Master's stuff for deletion. Thought you'd like to know.
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If I could suggest, from a stand point of assisting modders, for the Weapons Database and Ships Class List, include the Model name somewhere in the generics, otentially with the ShortName or Table reference name.
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...aaaand since it's a Wiki, what's preventing you from doing just that? ;)
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Nothing at all. :-)
Correction: Uh.....image uploading of PNG files is not supported? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
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Hmm... I'll get someone to look into that. But why do you need to upload any images at all for this?
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Part of the "Modding Resources" section I put in. Basically, to be able to contrast the Retail model/textures with/against what is in the MediaVP's to show a history of progression.
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Pngs are allowed, what exactly is your problem with pngs? Did you check if you are able to upload a jpg?
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If it works now, I think the issue was fixed by someone after I reported his post when I first saw it; that someone just forgot to say so. :p
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I have not yet tried, but thank you for the PM's Sandwich. I look to confirm sometime saturday when I am not mobile. Thank you in either case for keeping track.
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K. The PNG works.
(the rest was moved here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61867.0.html)
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If some adminy type would be so kind as to remove the pages on my campaigns Police Action and Back From the Grave; development has ceased, most the documentation for the storylines was accidentally lost, and evolving ideas have rendered them Deader Than Dead more or less.
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I would like to tell you also to remove 158th ships from "released"category.
They are no longed available and it's confirmed that nobody will reupload them.
Explaination here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62006.0.html
I got really confused when I tried actual links ,please make sure no one will make the same mistake as I do.
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FYI, I added a draft Mac Installation Guide (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Mac_Installation_Guide) to the wiki. I had the whole process fresh in my mind anyway.
best wishes,
Oscar
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Veteran Comments Jihad Mark 2 is underway. Redundant or bloggy comments have been purged from all FS1 ships (although I erred on the side of keeping them if there was some doubt).
FS2 ships will be purged during my lunch period or before.
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Since I ended up coming home due to hacking cough, the FS2 ships have all been purged, excepting the Sathanas, whose article is just such a mess of speculation I don't know if I should even touch it.
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Well done, NGTM-1R. I really like the Veteran Comments section, but the substantial stuff is getting a bit choked out.
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I have the impression that this kind of changes (I totally agree with) will be made at regular intervals. People will start adding stuff back to the Veteran Comments so that new purges will be required. I think we need to freeze the VCs or something like that. I'd also like the VCs to tell more about FREDding - gameplay has been covered enough.
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Let's not freeze them. I really like VCs, they make reading the Wiki a lot of fun.
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I like them as well, but I wouldn't like NGTM-1R to become the Sisiphus of the FreeSpace Wiki...
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It's not a terribly demanding task, and actually, stuff gets added onto the VCs very slowly. I can't see it being necessary more often then once every six months. A couple of hours every six months is easily spared.
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You can keep track of them in the Recent Changes window. They can be edited/reverted very as soon as they are added.
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True, but that might get someone disappointed. I'd say to expand the VC policies...
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Expand the policies? As in, allow anybody to write any old thing?
Sorry, no can do. I agree with NGTM-1R.
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Expand the policies? As in, allow anybody to write any old thing?
No.
As in, putting an emphasis on the kinds of VCs that the Wiki doesn't like. Please note that I don't disagree with NGTM-1R... I don't want him to become the Sisiphus of the FreeSpace Wiki (which is totally different).
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Purged the weapons veteran commentary, which was a much easier task than the ships.
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I'd like to suggest looking at this page to any would-be contributors:
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Special:SpecialPages
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Is anyone else having issues with the wiki mainpage loading slowly, if it does at all? It's being doing it for the past several days here...
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I've been using the wiki past three days quite a lot and never had a problem.
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Same here. It's most likely down at your end.
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http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
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http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
Hush you.
It seems to have decided to no longer support my version of IE spontanously. Was it recently upgraded?
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The Statistics Box is the only thing I can think of.
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I fixed the numerous misspellings of my name and of one of my ships. As well as linking to my actual website rather than just the downloads page of it (thankyouverymuch).
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Galemp's old corporations page has been purged for the greater accuracy, as Sutek's fleets page was.
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Unfair, unfair! :(
Can we at least make separate "canon" and "non-canon" sections? Or even add a "non-canon corporations" page?
The FRED Zone fleet organization was made up of mostly whole cloth too, but it's still a valuable fanon reference. So should this be.
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The FRED Zone fleet organization was made up of mostly whole cloth too, but it's still a valuable fanon reference. So should this be.
To who exactly? Nobody uses it. Ever. We just make it up as we go along around the canonical fleets and always have. Like the FS1-era commentary on BoEs, the only possible relevance the article has is historical, to show what idiots we all were once upon a time.
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...Who uses the fleet reference? Um, lots of people. :wtf: All of Blaise Russel's campaigns do. FSPort does. Scroll does. I think Derelict does.
I agree that anyone who wants to ignore it should feel free to, without prejudice. In fact, while I tend to use fleet numbering consistent with the article, I believe that several fleet details mentioned in that article are wrong, and I have amended those details in my own story creation. Nevertheless, that does not diminish the value of the fleet lists as a fanon reference.
So it is with Galemp's list of corporations. Galemp has used the list of corporations in some of his projects. And at the time Galemp originally posted the corporation list, several people hailed the list as a valuable resource (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=16211.0), including CP5670, who used a bunch of corporations in Procyon Insurgency. This was many years before the page was even added to the wiki, so it's not as if it were some draft that Mobius spouted off one day.
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I would like to have them around.
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This was many years before the page was even added to the wiki, so it's not as if it were some draft that Mobius spouted off one day.
Though it has exactly the same amount of canoncity and only slightly more relevance? Let's be honest here. GalEmp is a respected community member and all sure, but there was plenty of pure bullcrap on that list that wasn't, and probably couldn't be, marked as such even after someone went through the first time to try and mark things as non-canonical. Reconstruct the old list somewhere else, sure, if you like, but the one that's left after I got through with it is basically the one that needs to be the frontman.
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What about an article named "GalEmp's list of corporations"?
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How about adopting a system such as on www.ditl.org (http://www.ditl.org)? Give canon one color, extrapolation another, and pure fiction (ironic term, I know) a third.
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How about adopting a system such as on www.ditl.org (http://www.ditl.org)? Give canon one color, extrapolation another, and pure fiction (ironic term, I know) a third.
I don't think it's possible to color links, and quite a few of the things that were pure fiction were links. :P
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How about adopting a system such as on www.ditl.org (http://www.ditl.org)? Give canon one color, extrapolation another, and pure fiction (ironic term, I know) a third.
That was the plan but people stopped doing it.
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I support the purge.
Make non-canon corporations on a separate page.
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I don't think it's possible to color links, and quite a few of the things that were pure fiction were links. :P
It's actually quite possible... just takes a class applied to each link, and a CSS rule to color links with that class a different color. The main question is if the system allows applying/specifying a class for links...? If so, I can do the CSS easy.
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I think applying the class was the part he doesn't think you can do, I'm not aware of a way to do that either. You could maybe find a way to wrap the links in some sort of Wiki container that has a unique class and write the selector accordingly though.
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The interface.
It's groovy. :yes:
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Are we allowed to get rid of Mobius' stupid retcon page yet?
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While I don't agree with his views, either, it's separated from canon very clearly (and the title says explicitly who the author is), so I don't see why it should go.
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It's bollocks that basically encourages people to ignore FS1 from canon. It also has the unwanted side-effect of people using this contrived retcon bull**** to explain discrepancies in canon rather than thinking up of interesting in-universe theories (like ST:R).
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If other people see it as such, then let it go.
Okay, while an admin is at it, could he remove all the other articles in this category (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Articles_to_be_deleted)?
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You know... I disagree that it should (have?) been deleted. If it says NOT CANON at the top and who the author was, it's fine. Besides, it's interested to read through what :v: changed from FS1 to FS2 in that way
I see it as more of a history article than a story/canon/explanation article.
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It's too late now. It's gone.
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Nothing's ever gone for good on the wiki, just gone from view for non-admins ;)
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Well my vote goes to bringing it back. Personally, I'd like to read things that could shed some light on why say... the ST:R team did what they did as they tried to bridge FS1 and FS2.
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Do slather a big huge "non-canon" (and possibly "this is all a theory from a single member of the community") all over it if you bring it back though :P
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Nothing's ever gone for good on the wiki, just gone from view for non-admins ;)
Which means that unless you have a very convincing reason, you will never see that article again. :P
Do slather a big huge "non-canon" (and possibly "this is all a theory from a single member of the community") all over it if you bring it back though :P
It was there. It read something like: "The decisive majority of the community offers alternate solutions."
Well my vote goes to bringing it back. Personally, I'd like to read things that could shed some light on why say... the ST:R team did what they did as they tried to bridge FS1 and FS2.
ST:R didn't take Mobius's theory into consideration. Actually, it was released before the article was written.
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ST:R didn't take Mobius's theory into consideration. Actually, it was released before the article was written.
What I meant by that is that the article is part of the history of theories on the subject that is related to story elements in ST:R and that it would be an interesting read at least.
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Fair enough. You can try requesting an admin to copy/paste its content and send it to you via PM.
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I'd have no objection to retrieving the text and posting it somewhere on the forums, but I'm not inclined to revive the article itself. Remind me of it in a few days if I haven't gotten around to it by then.
[Edit] You can view it on my user page (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/User:Shade) for the next little while. Won't keep it there for too long, so if you want to look at it later you should copy it to a text file or something.
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You know... I disagree that it should (have?) been deleted. If it says NOT CANON at the top and who the author was, it's fine. Besides, it's interested to read through what :v: changed from FS1 to FS2 in that way
That's not what the article was. The article was about how FS1 sucked and how we should all pretend that it doesn't exist.
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Anyway, it's re-readable at Shade's profile here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/User:Shade), though temporarily. Everyone can decide it for himself how he interprets it.
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Personally, I'd like to read things that could shed some light on why say... the ST:R team did what they did as they tried to bridge FS1 and FS2.
That sort of thing would be good to put on the ST:R Continuity (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Silent_Threat:_Reborn_continuity) page. If someone posts a question or starts a section, or makes a suggestion, we'll be happy to fill it in.
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Err...was FS Doc deleted or something? :wtf:
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Um, no? There's a link to it at the top of every single page on HLP.
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It's up, unless he means the old Wiki, which used to be called FSDoc.
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Don't make me purge this thing again people, read the Veteran Comments policy!
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Just a heads up, skelkwank.bluescalie.net is dead, thanks to Japanese squatters, but I have reuploaded the site to http://skelkwank.muddytoe.net/ So if there are links to the old site around, this new address will replace it.
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I think I've found some inconsistency. The wiki says that the UEC Sanctus's manufacturer were Han-Ronald Corp. but that's wrong, Han-Ronald are GTA/GTVA manufacturers.
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I think I've found some inconsistency. The wiki says that the UEC Sanctus's manufacturer were Han-Ronald Corp. but that's wrong, Han-Ronald are GTA/GTVA manufacturers.
The UEF postdates the GTA in Sol and developed from it. Han-Ronald persisted as a corporate entity there, in much the same way that Volkswagen outlasted the Nazi Party in Germany.
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The UEF postdates the GTA...
Bit too much Supreme Commander lately? ;)
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The UEF postdates the GTA...
Bit too much Supreme Commander lately? ;)
Out of the loop a bit lately? ;)
Shares a name but not much else. Ask Darius.
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Fascinating. UEF seems to date back to at least 1999 as part of a future Cthulhu RPG. Can't say if Darius' creature was an homage to any other instance or a case of parallel evolution.
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Out of the loop a bit lately? ;)
Shares a name but not much else. Ask Darius.
Ah, I assumed you were referring to "UEC" from "Deadly in a Shadow"'s post. :)
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Out of the loop a bit lately? ;)
Shares a name but not much else. Ask Darius.
Ah, I assumed you were referring to "UEC" from "Deadly in a Shadow"'s post. :)
UEC = United Earth Cruiser, a cruiser in the service of the United Earth Federation, as GTC is a cruiser in the service of the Galactic Terran What-Have-You.
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When adding new external links, the 'bot-proof arithmetic check' shows "Failed to parse (Missing texvc executable; please see math/README to configure.):" in place of the correct text
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Dude, we have Chinese spambots all over the place now.
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They've created user talk pages like this one:
And then there are [LINK] individuals who appreciate LV bags, and have found out a bag that
is as a good offer [LINK] as 30 many years of age that is nonetheless in high quality shape.
Well, at least they aren't editing articles in the main space.
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We're nuking them when we see them. Also, whenever they're spotted, feel free to blank or (in case of existing pages) revert any pages they create until one of the admins deletes it.
Further, the main page is currently under full protection (admin-only editing), as that was the target several times before this user talk page attack started, so at least no immediately obvious vandalism should happen.
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What's the use of blanking if they get deleted soon?
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Nothing much, on our end. It does keep the bots from achieving their goal, though.
While annoying, the whole "creating page with lots of links" thing isn't for our benefit. Is is, essentially, a google bomb. It's done to present google's spider (and those of other search engines) with extra links to the page in question in order to improve their placement in search results, and as such, if the page is blanked before a search engine's spider sees the page, the bot has failed. Otherwise, it has succeeded, even if we later delete the page.
So really, it's just the part of me that doesn't want malicious bots achieving their goal that suggests blanking it. It makes little difference for members of HLP.
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I think we may need new Captchas unless they're getting through by flesh and blood spammers.
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Considering that the only reason to log in to the Wiki is to edit it, perhaps the captcha should be based off something only known to someone who played FS. A few examples could be:
- What star went supernova in FS2? (Capella)
- What planet was cut off from the rest of the galaxy in FS1? (Earth)
- What is the player's designation in both games? (Alpha 1)
- What is the equivalent of "hyperspace" in the FS universe? (Subspace)
- What is the last name of the leader of the anti-alien faction in FS2? (Bosch)
Etc. Basically, the idea being that the answer is not available whatsoever on the page, yet would be readily available online with a slight amount of digging, or immediately for any FS fans.
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That's a very good idea actually. I'm all for this.
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However whoever implements it, make sure that it's capitalization-agnostic, and if possible, allow for more than one right answer (Alpha 1 / Alpha One).
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Could just make it a multiple-choice quiz. Given, say, 6 choices per question, and 5 questions (those being the ones you came up with), that's over 7000 permutations. Admittedly a bot might get it right once in a blue moon if they hammer it hard enough, but I think we could live with that.
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What about people who edit for TBP or for code stuff?
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The point is that they can check the relevant articles before registering.
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For that matter, we could even sticky a post with the correct answers right here in the wiki forum.
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Why the Christ can't the wiki handle a single return and how do we make it do so? This is really pissing me off making entries for the WoD ships.
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What single return?
<br> Might be what you want.