[-Norbert-]

They also do massive hull damage, due to their fire rate, though I had some trouble to get them to fire in some experiments I did.
The Solaris just wouldn't fire them in some cases (especially against a Sath).

[General Battuta]

Yeah, that's been a really worrisome issue. We're not sure if it's a problem with the model or with the way FreeSpace turret AI works.

[Droid803]

Well, it's probably not the model as I can get it to fire those same turrets using other weapons (basically the Sanctus' Gauss Cannon) just fine.

[Mars]

15th Battlegroup vs. First Fleet Earth

Explain to me how Sol is suppose to be losing?
EDIT:
(Wasn't actually a challenge, but the UEF would seem to have a sizable advantage numerically.

[General Battuta]

Well a battlegroup vs. a fleet isn't entirely fair! There are generally 2+ battlegroups per GTVA fleet.

(That is, however, a really cool shot).

[Hades]

Uh, the tevs have many, many battlegroups (around 24 if I'm not mistaken) while the UEF has only 3 fleets, one of which is shown there and the other two are mostly decimated.

[The E]

Yes, in a straight-up, all-in fleet battle between 1st Fleet and the 15th, the UEF would probably have an edge.

Which is why Steele isn't giving them one.

Note that the 15th is only one of three GTVA formations operating in Sol, there's the Carthage BG, and the Hood/Meridian BG (minus the Meridian, of course) also running around shooting things.

[General Battuta]

Also don't forget that the 15th working together would have a killer alpha and very good subspace mobility. That alpha in particular would be quite telling.

[The E]

True. I suppose it's surviving that Alpha strike (which really is designed to take out a Sath!) which is tricky. You really can't count on having the Solaris and the Narayanas under those circumstances.

[Mars]

Every last confirmed ship in Sol, just prior to the Artemis attack


I understand that, but GTVA ships must be very powerful indeed for that to be a possibility. Even with crazy losses to the Jovian Fleet, the Sol forces still outnumber the TEVs severely.

EDIT:
The Arcane is with the 13th because it was the only confirmed ship still remaining from the 16th.

Also, the Sanctus has got to be the most produced ship ever.

[Dragon]

Wow, you must have a good computer to fit all that on screen, even if it's in FRED.

[Mars]

Wow, you must have a good computer to fit all that on screen, even if it's in FRED.

It's pretty old, but she's a fighter. I ran out of subsystems though (>4000)

EDIT:

There could have been another 15 Sanctus's, but they aren't 100%

PS.

The TEV ships are only the confirmed ones, chances are there are additional remnants of the 16th battlegroup, and perhaps another destroyer in the Carthage group.

[General Battuta]

Wait, why did you do that instead of just opening up bp2 massive battle and taking a screenshot of that?

I mean if you want to know how the battle would go down if the two sides just rolled out and fought, you can run that mission (at 4 FPS). The UEF usually but not always wins, but with such losses it would never be able to repel the inevitable follow-up.

Neither side wants that battle to happen.

That mission doesn't include the Sanctii nor the equivalent GTVA cruisers and assets, nor any fighters or bombers.

[Mars]

Wait, why did you do that instead of just opening up bp2 massive battle and taking a screenshot of that?

I mean if you want to know how the battle would go down if the two sides just rolled out and fought, you can run that mission (at 4 FPS). The UEF usually but not always wins, but with such losses it would never be able to repel the inevitable follow-up.

Neither side wants that battle to happen.

That mission doesn't include the Sanctii nor the equivalent GTVA cruisers and assets, nor any fighters or bombers.

Yeah, I never managed to sit through Massive Battle. Massive battle didn't include the entire composition of fleets, as you mentioned.

The UEF has a strong advantage even in a strategic way though; even assuming terrible tactics, unless the UEF loses twice as many ships, they still have a fairly easy victory.

Are there more Tev forces the player hasn't seen?

[General Battuta]

Yeah, loads of battlegroups on the other side of the node, and a few more ships in Sol. The UEF has a lot more territory to cover too.

[The E]

Yes. There's the rest of the GTVA fleet (20+ Destroyers on the terran side alone), which the Sec Council has so far declined to deploy to Sol. Remember, the GTVA forces you see there are basically the mobile reserve forces the GTVA could send to Earth without weakening their defense commitments elsewhere. So, unlike the UEF, they do have reserves that they can bring into the fight in a pinch. The only reason they haven't done it is because doing so would undermine the political rationale for the invasion of the Sol system.

[SpardaSon21]

The UEF has more forces in-system, but the TEV's have more total forces.  The GTVA wants the war to become a slow, fatiguing, morale-destroying grind for the UEF, while the GTVA can rotate warships and fighter squadrons in and out as necessary to maintain fresh forces and increase their number of trained, veteran pilots in case of a third Shivan incursion.  The longer the war goes on, the better the GTVA will become at fighting it and since it is in UEF territory, they'll lose more the longer it goes on.

[General Battuta]

Indeed. Though the GTVA has to balance their desire to take Sol's infrastructure with their strategic need to degrade that infrastructure - a balance that tipped sharply towards 'wreck' when Steele arrived with his plan to end the war rapidly.

It's not as if the UEF has only persisted this long at the GTVA's sufferance. The GTVA could have piled ten or twenty destroyers into the system at the start of the war, and the result would've been a mutual bloodbath, with the UEF having the subspace tracking advantage required to drop their bomber wings right down destroyers' throats, the GTVA shock-jumping everything it could find, and the two faction's air wings shredding each other. It would have been over soon, and the GTVA probably would have been victorious, but the cost would have been staggering, including, most likely, the best of the GTVA's equipment and personnel.

Both sides misunderstood the strategic intent and tactical capabilities of the other - something that comes up again and again in the history of war. (In fact, one of the marked statistical trends in the history of warfare is the overconfidence of aggressors, something I had the distinct pleasure to write a lengthy paper on at one point.)

[Mars]

The UEF has more forces in-system, but the TEV's have more total forces.  The GTVA wants the war to become a slow, fatiguing, morale-destroying grind for the UEF, while the GTVA can rotate warships and fighter squadrons in and out as necessary to maintain fresh forces and increase their number of trained, veteran pilots in case of a third Shivan incursion.  The longer the war goes on, the better the GTVA will become at fighting it and since it is in UEF territory, they'll lose more the longer it goes on.

I was actually curious about how the forces IN Sol stacked up (Sol Expeditionary Force vs UEF military) the whole GTVA is likely to include many more ships. The interesting numbers are the ones in Sol.

Yeah, loads of battlegroups on the other side of the node, and a few more ships in Sol. The UEF has a lot more territory to cover too.

Ahha, you make a good point. Defense is easy with one choke point.

_________________________________
Interesting dicking about with fighter numbers

Assuming 12 fighters for Karunas, [fudged]12 fighters for Narayanas[/fudged], and 192 fighters for Solaris destroyers:
12(21) + 12(14) + 192(3) =  996 fighters in the UEF fleet (around 62 squadrons) (not stationed on an installation)

Assuming 96 fighters on an Orion, 150 for a Hecate, [megafudged] 200 for a Titan, 96 for a Raynor, and 12 for a Diomedes: [/megafudged]
96(1)+150(2)+200(1)+96(1)+12(4)= 740 in the Sol Expeditionary Force arsenal (around 46 squadrons)

[NGTM-1R]

The GTVA doesn't have to actually defend the node, either. Any attempt at a close blockade you can simply dump Meson Bombs on.