[Scotty]

Then why bring it up in response to that mission? 

[Blue Lion]

Then why bring it up in response to that mission? 

It is a good response

"Have GTVA forces engage in hit and run guerrilla tactics"

"But what about deep cover ops who may get caught in the crossfire?"

It makes you ask if you destroy the deep cover. Would we have learned about ETAK?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

That's the point. Any deep cover ops caught in the crossfire will typically have only two choices: kill their own, or abort the operation. At that point in time, ETAK was feared to be a weapon of mass destruction (WoMD) by the GTVA, and Snipes' operation may probably be the only good chance that the Alliance has to confirm this fear.

Assuming that ETAK really was a WoMD, and that Ahmose was not a renegade, what would the deep-cover ops do? Will they follow GTVA code and blow the operation, only to have ETAK turned against them later? Or will special ops cover up and kill the members of the Alliance to save everyone else in the GTVA?

[DIO]

I've found a interesting note in the command briefing. Petrarch said that 75% of the 6th fleet was destroyed in the surprise attack when the NTF attacked Epsilon Pegasi, and casualties exceeded 80000. If we follow that information, I think it's safe to say that a fleet composes somwhere around 100000~110000 personnel (although the 6th fleet could have been understrength when the attack happened, since a portion of the fleet went with Bosch when he formed the NTF).

I think we can make a reasonable deduction of the fleet size with this information, since we know Destroyers has 10000 crews, and corvettes about the half of that (I'm pretty sure cruisers would be about the half of a corvette considering their size). Below is my guesswork.

2 Destroyers:20000 crew
4 Corvettes: 20000 crew
8 Cruisers: 20000 crew
Around 300 fighters/bombers: Around 1000 pilots including reserve?
Logistical personnel: 40000

We can probably take away or add few corvettes or cruisers, but I think this is a fairly reasonable estimate of the fleet size.

We also know that GTVA has at least 13 fleets and 13 battle groups. If we assume a battle group is about equal size to a fleet, we can deduce that GTVA at the least has a total strength of around 30 destroyers, 100 corvettes, 200 cruisers and 8000 fighters/bombers (probably a lot more fighters and bombers for station defense and such, since Bakha alone had more than 6000 produced)

[Mobius]

It's not a matter of sizes, only. Destroyers are have command, launch and control capabilities. Corvettes have (I guess) some command capabilities and cruisers are mere warships with very limited command capabilities.

You have to consider parameters like the presence of research teams, marines, pilots, mechanics, scientists,etc. etc. on board a ship.

[Blue Lion]

We have some numbers to work with that are canon.

"Out of the 107,000 GTVA operatives based in Epsilon Pegasi, 80,357 are killed during the first phase of the assault. "

Also doesn't Koth mention how many people are on the Repulse?

This won't help us get exact roster numbers, but more plausible numbers of fleets and personnel.

[TrashMan]

I've found a interesting note in the command briefing. Petrarch said that 75% of the 6th fleet was destroyed in the surprise attack when the NTF attacked Epsilon Pegasi, and casualties exceeded 80000. If we follow that information, I think it's safe to say that a fleet composes somwhere around 100000~110000 personnel (although the 6th fleet could have been understrength when the attack happened, since a portion of the fleet went with Bosch when he formed the NTF).

I think we can make a reasonable deduction of the fleet size with this information, since we know Destroyers has 10000 crews, and corvettes about the half of that (I'm pretty sure cruisers would be about the half of a corvette considering their size). Below is my guesswork.

2 Destroyers:20000 crew
4 Corvettes: 20000 crew
8 Cruisers: 20000 crew
Around 300 fighters/bombers: Around 1000 pilots including reserve?
Logistical personnel: 40000

We can probably take away or add few corvettes or cruisers, but I think this is a fairly reasonable estimate of the fleet size.

We also know that GTVA has at least 13 fleets and 13 battle groups. If we assume a battle group is about equal size to a fleet, we can deduce that GTVA at the least has a total strength of around 30 destroyers, 100 corvettes, 200 cruisers and 8000 fighters/bombers (probably a lot more fighters and bombers for station defense and such, since Bakha alone had more than 6000 produced)

That's a pretty reasonable estimate

[Mobius]

We have some numbers to work with that are canon.

"Out of the 107,000 GTVA operatives based in Epsilon Pegasi, 80,357 are killed during the first phase of the assault."

I added that one to the FS Wiki. Those 107,000  operatives are never mentioned, but I used the power of Mathematics to do the following:

75,1% : 80,357 = 100% : 107,000

The number doesn't have a lot of significance, anyway, because we don't know how many ships the GTVA lost. We don't know how to "distribute" those deaths.

Also doesn't Koth mention how many people are on the Repulse?

This won't help us get exact roster numbers, but more plausible numbers of fleets and personnel.

Koth never said anything about the number of officers serving the NTF aboard the Repulse. It was the CO of the Colossus who said "[...] You're sacrificing ten thousand lives for nothing!".

Which leads us to believe that there are 10,000 crewmen aboard an Orion. Petrarch also mentioned the 10,000 crewmen serving aboard the Aquitaine. Finally, Samsa mentioned the presence of 10,000 crewmen aboard the Carthage.

But that's it, those are destroyers. I don't know if there are any straight references to the number of crewmen serving cruisers, corvettes and installation. We know from Samsa that there are 6,000 Vasudans in a Sobek, but that seems a bit exaggerated. The Vasudans are so much bigger than Terrans and the Sobek is not a large ship. Where are all thouse Vasudans? Not to mention the fact that the Sobek has no launch and such capabilities, so the presence of extre members of the crew is not required.

[Blue Lion]

The number doesn't have a lot of significance, anyway, because we don't know how many ships the GTVA lost. We don't know how to "distribute" those deaths.[/mobius]

It tells us how many people would be there in an operation of that size roughly.

Which leads us to believe that there are 10,000 crewmen aboard an Orion. Petrarch also mentioned the 10,000 crewmen serving aboard the Aquitaine. Finally, Samsa mentioned the presence of 10,000 crewmen aboard the Carthage.

Then  that helps narrow down the number of destroyers in a system with 100k in it, right? It's a estimation process.

But that's it, those are destroyers. I don't know if there are any straight references to the number of crewmen serving cruisers, corvettes and installation. We know from Samsa that there are 6,000 Vasudans in a Sobek, but that seems a bit exaggerated. The Vasudans are so much bigger than Terrans and the Sobek is not a large ship. Where are all thouse Vasudans? Not to mention the fact that the Sobek has no launch and such capabilities, so the presence of extre members of the crew is not required.

Do we discard canon info we just don't think fits? Unless there is contradictory evidence somewhere, aren't we kind of stuck with it?

Didn't you say we had no idea what resources are on these ships and can't discount things taking up large numbers of people? Or was that someone else.

[Mobius]

1) Which operation? Already weakened GTVA forces in Epsilon Pegasi have been caught by surprise by the NTF. I don't really understand how they would represent an average GTVA fleet involved in some sort of operation;

2) What do you mean? There probably weren't more than 2 destroyers in Epsilon Pegasi when Koth attacked, and we don't even know if those destroyers have been taken down because no sources mention them.

In other words, that number doesn't help;

3) [Unbelievable/weird canon info is refered to as "inconsistency". I'm not the first one claiming that 6,000 Vasudans in a Sobek may be too much.

I mentioned "resources", but that principle can only be barely applied to corvettes and cruisers. They don't have launch capabilities and they're not supposed to be the center of their fleets - this means that the number of crewmen can't be that high.

I've always considered 800-1,200-1,500 the most probable number of crewmen aboard cruisers because 2,000 may be exaggerated for a ship that lacks the "special" capabilities I mentioned above;

[Blue Lion]

1) Which operation? Already weakened GTVA forces in Epsilon Pegasi have been caught by surprise by the NTF. I don't really understand how they would represent an average GTVA fleet involved in some sort of operation;

2) What do you mean? There probably weren't more than 2 destroyers in Epsilon Pegasi when Koth attacked, and we don't even know if those destroyers have been taken down because no sources mention them.

So you're saying that 100k was super super low, they stayed in system and then proceeded to lose 75% of those forces?

3) [Unbelievable/weird canon info is refered to as "inconsistency". I'm not the first one claiming that 6,000 Vasudans in a Sobek may be too much.

I mentioned "resources", but that principle can only be barely applied to corvettes and cruisers. They don't have launch capabilities and they're not supposed to be the center of their fleets - this means that the number of crewmen can't be that high.

I've always considered 800-1,200-1,500 the most probable number of crewmen aboard cruisers because 2,000 may be exaggerated for a ship that lacks the "special" capabilities I mentioned above;

What is it inconsistent with? Other corvettes? Other ships? Are there other ships besides the destroyers with numbers attached to the ships?

[Mobius]

To be honest, I don't really understand where and how you're going to lead this discussion to.

1) You're completely ignoring the fact that Epsilon Pegasi has been a constested system for 18 months before Koth's attack. This means that, although GTVA forces in the system received supplies at regular intervals, they surely weren't at full strength when Koth attack. That probably was the reason behind Koth's success. In any case, under these circumstances,

Tell me in the most reasonable way how you're supposed to distribute 107,000 souls if you don't even know how many ships and squadrons the GTVA had in the system. All we see is Enif station plus some freighters and transports escaping from it - all other assets are part of the reinforcements arrived later, including the Colossus and the

The Parapet might be part of the originary GTVA force, but the fact that it was guarding the Capella node leads me to believe the corvette wasn't there when Koth attacked - it could have been engaged and destroyed by the NTF.  Proof: the Parapet's hull integrity is at 100% in Into the Maelstrom.

2) Vasudans are physically bigger than Terrans - how do you expect two Vasudan corvettes(supposed number = 12,000) to house more souls than a Terran destroyer (known number = 10,000)? Also, as I stated above, corvettes have no launch and such capabilities(things that increase the minimum number of crewmen necessary to keep a ship working).

[Blue Lion]

To be honest, I don't really understand where and how you're going to lead this discussion to.

We've never left. Conjecture on numbers in GTVA fleets. Where do you think we went?

1) You're completely ignoring the fact that Epsilon Pegasi has been a constested system for 18 months before Koth's attack. This means that, although GTVA forces in the system received supplies at regular intervals, they surely weren't at full strength when Koth attack. That probably was the reason behind Koth's success. In any case, under these circumstances,

Tell me in the most reasonable way how you're supposed to distribute 107,000 souls if you don't even know how many ships and squadrons the GTVA had in the system. All we see is Enif station plus some freighters and transports escaping from it - all other assets are part of the reinforcements arrived later, including the Colossus and the

The Parapet might be part of the originary GTVA force, but the fact that it was guarding the Capella node leads me to believe the corvette wasn't there when Koth attacked - it could have been engaged and destroyed by the NTF.  Proof: the Parapet's hull integrity is at 100% in Into the Maelstrom.

Ignoring what fact? Epsilon Pegasi had to be at least defensible in the slightest or they wouldn't have left 107k people there to defend it. We can probably assume that 107k people is on the very low end of system wide fleet operational numbers. Or are you implying they left a skeleton crew there to get slaughtered?

Don't we have vague ideas on how many people are in an Arcadia due to evacuation missions?

2) Vasudans are physically bigger than Terrans - how do you expect two Vasudan corvettes(supposed number = 12,000) to house more souls than a Terran destroyer (known number = 10,000)? Also, as I stated above, corvettes have no launch and such capabilities(things that increase the minimum number of crewmen necessary to keep a ship working).

How do I expect them to fit? Less room? Less bunks, maybe they sleep standing up. Maybe they sleep at their work stations. Maybe corvettes have more jobs in the Vasudan fleet.

Why is the terran number a known number but the corvette is supposed considering them come from the same source?

[Mobius]

1) A discussion that might lead to nothing because we lack vital info. That's why your points can't be validated.

2) No and no.

First of all, had Epsilon Pegasi's GTVA forces been at full strength, I hard believe the NTF would have attacked en masse in the first place.

I have no clue on the average number of people serving the Alliance in Arcadia-class installations.

3) You're actually making several assumptions regarding the Vasudans which can't be proved correct or wrong, but shouldn't be mentioned at all in a discussion based on canon sources.

Please note that I don't remember anything about the number of Terran operatives in GTCv Deimos corvettes so my point on the GVCv Sobek is based on other canon sources(namely, the number of operatives in destroyers).

[Blue Lion]

1) A discussion that might lead to nothing because we lack vital info. That's why your points can't be validated.

2) No and no.

First of all, had Epsilon Pegasi's GTVA forces been at full strength, I hard believe the NTF would have attacked en masse in the first place.

That's why I said bare minimum for operations. This then implies that a full strength system is way more than that. Those people have to go somewhere.

Why are you having trouble getting this? They're estimates. No one is asking for validation.

I have no clue on the average number of people serving the Alliance in Arcadia-class installations.

Didn't we watch one being evacuated? Wouldn't that give at least somewhat of an idea?

3) You're actually making several assumptions regarding the Vasudans which can't be proved correct or wrong, but shouldn't be mentioned at all in a discussion based on canon sources.

You're dismissing canon sources. You asked me to make guesses on why it could be that way, and then disregard them because they're guesses.

"How do you expect two Vasudan corvettes(supposed number = 12,000) to house more souls than a Terran destroyer (known number = 10,000)?"

Here is the part where you asked by the way. I answered.

Please note that I don't remember anything about the number of Terran operatives in GTCv Deimos corvettes so my point on the GVCv Sobek is based on other canon sources(namely, the number of operatives in destroyers).

Exactly, you have no clue what goes on in a Vasudan Corvette, or even a Diemos. Yet you have no trouble dismissing canon numbers because it doesn't feel right.

We were discussing one thing in this thread: potential numbers of ships in fleets. How on earth you've been in this thread dismissing all other guesses as wrong and at the same time arguing there is no way to know is beyond me.

Either you're willing to make semi educated guesses based on canon information or you're not.

If you want to argue numbers and plausibility, then saddle up. If you can't seem to grasp what point it serves, stop jumping in and telling everyone they're wrong.

[Krelus]

It should be noted that a Nimitz Supercarrier carries about 3500 people. And that thing is about the size of a TC-TRI container. Having a Sobek be crewed by 6,000 doesn't seem that outlandish.

[Mobius]

1) The point, Blue Lion, is that we don't have the minimum info necessary to come out with good estimates. Feel free to conduct a research, but you'll get to nothing.

2) Wrong example, wrong example. We have extremely poor info regarding the evacuation of an Arcadia. We see a Triton and an Elysium during The Sixth Wonder, and we've been told during the briefing that "most civilian convoys jumped safely to the Capella jump node".

I'm curious - what kind of estimate are you going to come out with this time? We have absolutely no clue on the number of freighters/transports that escaped from Enif Station. Also, we don't even know how many crewmen do these vessels require as well as the number of passengers they can transfer.

3) Have you ever heard of inconsistencies and plotholes? As I said before, I'm not the first community member to be skeptic about the Sobek's crew. If you're going to accept canon as the word of God even if certain aspects of it don't have sense, it's another matter.

And that's the Sobek, only. I'm waiting for your thoughts on the Deimos, as well as your thoughts on all GTVA cruisers.

4) You're missing the point here. The difference between me and you is the fact that you want to come out with estimates even if we don't have the rights(=read "info") to do so. If we don't have the bare minimum to discuss the subject, how do you pretend to discuss it in the first place?

It should be noted that a Nimitz Supercarrier carries about 3500 people. And that thing is about the size of a TC-TRI container. Having a Sobek be crewed by 6,000 doesn't seem that outlandish.

Please, let's don't get to this. A modern Nimitz and a Sobek from the FS universe? Sorry, but that comparison doesn't work.

Also, did you forget that Vasudans are bigger than Terrans?

[Krelus]

I'm just saying, let's keep scale in mind here. And it's not like Vasudans are THAT much bigger than Terrans. Is the number a bit high? Maybe, but nowhere near enough to warrant this much concern.

[Mobius]

You're also forgetting to consider the different technological level, plus the fact that a destroyer has "only" 10,000 crewmembers compared to a corvette's supposed 6,000.

[Blue Lion]

1) The point, Blue Lion, is that we don't have the minimum info necessary to come out with good estimates. Feel free to conduct a research, but you'll get to nothing.

What do you consider bare minimum information?

We have lists of ships, we have numbers of crew given to some of those ships. We have numbers of people listed in a system. We've seen large parts of the rebellion. What exactly do you need for "minimum" information that ISN'T a duty roster?

2) Wrong example, wrong example. We have extremely poor info regarding the evacuation of an Arcadia. We see a Triton and an Elysium during The Sixth Wonder, and we've been told during the briefing that "most civilian convoys jumped safely to the Capella jump node".

I'm curious - what kind of estimate are you going to come out with this time? We have absolutely no clue on the number of freighters/transports that escaped from Enif Station. Also, we don't even know how many crewmen do these vessels require as well as the number of passengers they can transfer.

Actually, I wasn't talking about The Sixth Wonder.

3) Have you ever heard of inconsistencies and plotholes? As I said before, I'm not the first community member to be skeptic about the Sobek's crew. If you're going to accept canon as the word of God even if certain aspects of it don't have sense, it's another matter.

And that's the Sobek, only. I'm waiting for your thoughts on the Deimos, as well as your thoughts on all GTVA cruisers.

Actually, you haven't asked my opinions on any ship numbers.

But what I really like is how you try to chew me out for not having bare minimum information about it, but that same bare minimum gives you the option to be a skeptic about the Sobek.

Where are you getting your information that tells you it's not plausible?

4) You're missing the point here. The difference between me and you is the fact that you want to come out with estimates even if we don't have the rights(=read "info") to do so. If we don't have the bare minimum to discuss the subject, how do you pretend to discuss it in the first place?

I do have info. I know how many are on a Sobek and destroyer. I know those are the biggest ships (normally) in the fleet. It isn't TOO big a stretch to consider that a ship so many times smaller than another ship probably has roughly the same decrease in crew.

The best part is when someone comes up with a number, you shoot it down. You just said you have no idea what they are, how do you know they aren't right?