Author Topic: Canon and continuity  (Read 45548 times)

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Offline maje

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I don't recall seeing any Acclamator-class cruisers in the OT, nor do I recall reading about them in the X-wing series, any of the Thrawn books, the Black Fleet crisis, any of the Bounty Hunter Wars novels, any of the "Tales" series, or any of the Jedi Academy books, not even in those Young Jedi Knights books.

why would they be in this game?


Ever play Empire At War?  Galactic Empire makes use of them as troop transports.  In Forces of Corruption, the Zann Consortium uses Droidekkas.  These both take place during the OT.
Deuternomy 22:11 explained:

Well there are many different speculations going on about this law about not mixing fibers and at least one explanation claims that it was a symbolic gesture designed to keep a pure sense of culture, people, and religion.  Seperation of crop  in the vinyard, mentioned in Dt. 22:9 and 22:10 seem to reaffirm this idea, though there may be other reasons as well.

And now, an excerpt from the Prayer of Mordecai, the Book of Esther Chapter C (New American Bible Official Catholic version).

Est C:5  You know all things.  You know, O Lord, that it was not out of insolence or pride or desire for fame that I acted thus in not bowing down to the proud Haman.  6  Gladly would I have kissed the soles of his feet for the salvation of Israel.  7  But I acted as I did so as not to place the honor of man above that of God.  I will not bow down to anyone but you, my Lord.  It is not out of pride that I am acting thus.

 

Offline Turambar

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but were made after the prequels were.

by the same people who thought the prequels were good.


poor EAW, it had a chance to be Rebellion 2 but it failed utterly at everything it tried, except for looking pretty.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 09:36:34 pm by Turambar »
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline maje

  • 28
......and?

I fail to see how badmouthing the execution of a story or gameplay has any effect on whether ships that carry over from one era to another should be used.

If it's a matter of "I don't like the fleet emblems painted on the Republic ships", that's fine, because after the formation of the Galactic Empire, all of that gets phased out.  Don't believe me? Check out the tail end of Revenge of the Sith when a few Venators approach the Death Star.  No more markings.

If you want to get into a seperate discussion about what Star Wars continuity is crap and what's gold, I'm cool with that.  :cool:
Deuternomy 22:11 explained:

Well there are many different speculations going on about this law about not mixing fibers and at least one explanation claims that it was a symbolic gesture designed to keep a pure sense of culture, people, and religion.  Seperation of crop  in the vinyard, mentioned in Dt. 22:9 and 22:10 seem to reaffirm this idea, though there may be other reasons as well.

And now, an excerpt from the Prayer of Mordecai, the Book of Esther Chapter C (New American Bible Official Catholic version).

Est C:5  You know all things.  You know, O Lord, that it was not out of insolence or pride or desire for fame that I acted thus in not bowing down to the proud Haman.  6  Gladly would I have kissed the soles of his feet for the salvation of Israel.  7  But I acted as I did so as not to place the honor of man above that of God.  I will not bow down to anyone but you, my Lord.  It is not out of pride that I am acting thus.

 
  I think the reason people have problems with the pre-quels is that GL pretty much made a bunch of crap up that supposedly "was" but was strangely never mentioned or even hinted at before the pre-quels were released. The ships are cool, but they DIDN'T exist until the last batch of movies. It's just a fact that George decided to cash in on SW again, and instead of using old ideas, he made up a bunch of new so he could have a new toy line and games. There is no over-arching story, it's just about coinage, and that's a simple fact. It's techinically canon because George made it under the star wars label, but it literally didn't exist in any shape form or fashion until then. I want all the pre-quel ships in and available, for the sack of variety, but I agree that it's all made-up. And yes, I know it's a fantasy story, so before some jackass points that out, remember the context of the discussion.

 
Thanks harvey, I think that was the best description of the prequels I've heard here yet.

 
ya, pretty much. i hope he doesn't **** up the sequel trilogy if he ever does make it.

and btw, WTH WAS the vhong war? all i know about it is that chewie dies, thats it. but from what i've managed to pick up, it seems almost like :V: copied it for FS1. it just sounds out of place for SWs though. like the sissi-rhuk.



Bottomline:

It's good to stick to the original source, the original feeling. It's even better to bring something new to the SW gaming...but don't forget that from time to time the magic was rekindled (like Bioware did with KOTOR).
My closing line is all in its due time, you yourself may find a piece of the Clone Wars or the Old Republic that's close to your heart if you let it give a chance. When the time comes you may feel inclined to connect the SWC with that part.

now thats just sappy.  :p
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline TopAce

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The Yuuzhan Vong War was an event that brought about the near destruction of the New Republic (Galactic Alliance, as it was called). Most Outer-Rim systems were destroyed, species brought dangerously close to extinction. Coruscant was Vongformed (terraformed so that the environment was favorable to the Yuuzhan Vong). Apart from Chewbacca, a few other known Sw characters died, like Borsk Fey'lya.

All in all, it was a very devastating galaxywide conflict, where the Imperial Remnant and the Alliance had to form an alliance in order to survive.

That's all I recall. I never read any of those books, so I may be imprecise.
My community contributions - Get my campaigns from here.

I already announced my retirement twice, yet here I am. If I bring up that topic again, don't believe a word.

 

Offline Turambar

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but the New Republic and the Empire were already at peace, since Pellaeon and Bel Iblis negotiated the peace treaty at the end of Vision of the Future.

it'd really help their case if they read the other novels before writing their own.

10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Flaser

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  • man/fish warsie
but the New Republic and the Empire were already at peace, since Pellaeon and Bel Iblis negotiated the peace treaty at the end of Vision of the Future.

it'd really help their case if they read the other novels before writing their own.

IIRC being at peace and forming an alliance are different thing.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline TopAce

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Turambar, I said that I did not read any of the NJO novels. I just read about the Yuuzhan Vong War in Wookieepedia. I might be incorrect. I just gave a quick summary to Titan, cause he asked what the "vhong war" was.
My community contributions - Get my campaigns from here.

I already announced my retirement twice, yet here I am. If I bring up that topic again, don't believe a word.

 
Heh, you know what I just realized? The X-Wing series of books was supposedly based on the X-Wing game, and here we are basing a game on the X-Wing books.  :)

 

Offline jr2

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Actually, I thought we were using:

1) Original Trilogy + canon statements about them (from Lucas)
2) Books on that period
3) Games
4) Other sources

In that order.. more or less.

 

Offline Turambar

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Heh, you know what I just realized? The X-Wing series of books was supposedly based on the X-Wing game, and here we are basing a game on the X-Wing books.  :)

well, yes, but theyre so damn well written, cover an important part of the EU timeline, and do so in a way that doesnt step on any continuity toes.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline maje

  • 28
Yes, but one observation if I may?  The X-wing games bring serious issues with continuity that conflicts a great deal with the EU such as A-wings existing pre-Yavin, Mon Calamari vessels being part of the Alliance Fleet pre-Hoth, and God knows what else (TIE Interceptors existing pre-Yavin).  Not that the missions were bad, but there is still some continuity fubar going on that needs to be addressed.

Also, as much as I love the Stackpole books, I felt that he based the combat too much on the X-wing games where fighters can take down cap ships with ease (though Rogue Squadron had a pretty good scenario pitting a rebel Corvette, Rogue, and Defender Wing (I think Defender was present) against a Carrack Cruiser and a Lancer Frigate.  On the flip side, the Rebels were able to capture a Star Dreadnought, the Lusankya in The Bacta War using modified freighters and other small ships (actually been a while since I read that, there may have been larger ships, but I'll be damned if I can remember that).  I never gave that much credit, unless those modified freighters being used were former Trade Federation Battleships (the 3km Diameter donut ships that were originally freighters).
Deuternomy 22:11 explained:

Well there are many different speculations going on about this law about not mixing fibers and at least one explanation claims that it was a symbolic gesture designed to keep a pure sense of culture, people, and religion.  Seperation of crop  in the vinyard, mentioned in Dt. 22:9 and 22:10 seem to reaffirm this idea, though there may be other reasons as well.

And now, an excerpt from the Prayer of Mordecai, the Book of Esther Chapter C (New American Bible Official Catholic version).

Est C:5  You know all things.  You know, O Lord, that it was not out of insolence or pride or desire for fame that I acted thus in not bowing down to the proud Haman.  6  Gladly would I have kissed the soles of his feet for the salvation of Israel.  7  But I acted as I did so as not to place the honor of man above that of God.  I will not bow down to anyone but you, my Lord.  It is not out of pride that I am acting thus.

 
 It was some 80 odd freighters of various sizes (ranging from light freighters to corvettes and bulk freighters) specially rigged to fire torpedos, probably a wing or two's worth of fighters, the ISDII Virulence (or Avarice? One of the two) that defected to Antilles, and the Thranta Frigate they found in the Alderaan graveyard. They didn't "capture" the Lusankya persay, but instead after a couple salvos of several hundred torpedos, they blew the front end off and the Drysso's second in command... relieved him... and surrendered because they didn't like Isard anyway and were getting large pieces of the ship and thousands of people killed cause of the biyatch.

 

Offline Topgun

  • 210
I still consider everything "canon" that is officially declared canon. This includes the prequels (which is the highest level of canon, and I don't see why some "fans" argue that they aren't/shouldn't be), the Thrawn campaign, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. Everything, except for those sources that directly contradict canon - Infinities stories - is officially recognized as "happened" in the SW universe.

Why we are kind of lucky is that we will only have to deal with the Galactic Civil War, supposing that our shipset will be designed for this period. Why I say we are lucky is because most of the "space action" is covered in the X-wing series of games, games that most of you know already, and will compare SWC's feel to your favorite SW space sim. Therefore I fail to see why the canonicity of the Yuuzhan Vong needs to be discussed here, considering that it is heavily unlikely we will cover that period. Even if we could complete models so fast - and here I do not only mean finalizing meshes, but completing it textures, POF data, and tables - we would have to consider that the public as a whole know. I would assume SWC's players to know the very basics of SW (What's and X-wing? Who do they normally shoot? etc.) This does not assume any knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong, and what happened decades after the movies.

 
One time admirer and lurker, first time poster and still admiring!   ;)

Here's my observation as to what's "canon" enough to be in any Star Wars game that's set during the Original Trilogy:

(1) Any of the ships that actually appeared in the first three films
(2) Any of the ships from the prequel films

And anything beyond that is pure speculation due to the fact that the Lucas Empire has grown so mammoth that its only means of survival is to satiate itself, endlessly I might add, on money.  And they will do anything, and I do mean anything to latch their leach-like mouths on us fanboys' wallets.

Words such as "continuity," "artistic expression," and "character development" are flat out the window of a 200 story skyscraper when it comes to the empty suits that guide this behemoth.  And that's the cold, hard, and most importantly of all, easily demonstrated truth.

"Retconning" is a term of pure corporate propaganda.  And the overwhelming majority of the time, the EU's retcons are so pathetically awkward that it would be far easier to read an editorial blurb at the start of every chapter that reads "Odds are significantly high that events detailed here will be made meaningless later..."

The "sloppiness" of such "mistakes" is not genuinely accidental, but rather perfectly predictable when one reflects a little on the system that produces it.  I fell for it for a while too, but have come to see it for what it is, and I've freed myself from the ravenous cash register that the EU is.

That said, it seems implausible to me that anyone can somehow pretend that the Prequels, and all of their content "didn't" happen.  They can wish to banish them from history, but billions of current/future dollars will prove otherwise. 

For myself, the Prequel ships should be included to some degree, however marginal, in this total conversion of the FS2 engine.  As has been stated in an earlier post, the Republic color schemes on the fleets of vessels was quickly done away with, and it seems more than reasonable to expect to see them serving in some capacity in the Original Trilogy.  Just because they weren't in the OT films does not mean they somehow weren't in that universe.   

It never fails to boggle my mind how quickly fans of the completely cliche'd Thrawn Trilogy race to defend the creation of a non-cinemized Zahn craft as being more "canon" than ships that have actually been on screen.  Such individuals epitomize George Orwell's definition of "doublespeak" and "doublethink."   :rolleyes:

The majority of the Prequel ships could easily be stuck in backwater/light duties, and be present in low numbers.  Fighter craft, which tend to have a much shorter lifespan than a capital ship, could be used quite convincingly as pirate ships, mercenary units, and whatnot.  They could even be doctored up with customized paint schemes, or (even more believably in my opinion) graffiti.  Capital ships could be handled in a similar fashion, although due to their enormous costs, it seems to me that they'd be less likely to get a new paint job.  Certainly, their weaponry and systems would be swapped out for others, and these different systems wouldn't necessarily be superior to what we've seen in the films; they could be cannibalized from even older or inferior ships.

The point is that the Prequel ships can be used, and would certainly add more flavor and character to the game.  And without question in my mind, increase the likelihood of the mod being downloaded, because in spite of all of the badmouthing of the Prequels that goes on, there are far more people who enjoyed them enough not to let the "canon technobabble" bother them in the least.  They would appreciate to see these ships, however briefly, in the game. 

 :) 
     
 


 
Bravo, very nice.

That's some first post, dude, and I agree 99%.

(That last one percent of for the Legacy of the Force books, which so far have been actually decent.)

 

Offline brandx0

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Just as a short point on your post there, I'd like to note that we're not holding up any of the expanded universe as a higher canon than that of the movies, the movies are canon, the EU is semi canon.  Now that we've got that out of the way...

Our choice to include more EU stuff than prequel stuff (Note that we have not ruled out prequel ships, just merely aren't focusing on them right now) is based mainly on creating a playable shipset.  Let's perhaps look a freespace 2 as a game where there were just enough ships of each size and type, Terran ships for point of example:

Light Frigate - Fenris
Heavy Frigate - Leviathan
Point Defense Frigate - Aeolus
Light Cruiser - Deimos
Heavy Cruiser - Iceni
Line Battleship - Orion
Command and Control Carrier - Hecate
Super Battleship - Colossus

Now how about the Republic/Empire from star wars that we've seen on screen?

Light Frigate
Heavy Frigate
Point Defense Frigate
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Line Battleship - Imperial I and II Class Star Destroyers
Command and Control Carrier - Venator Class Star Destroyer
Super Battleship - Executor Class Star Dreadnought

Other than that all we've seen from the movies is the acclamator, which is a troop transport.  Doesn't leave us much of a shipset for creating missions, does it?  So we've added ships from the EU that fill those roles, to give mission variety.

We're not saying that no prequel ships will be in the game, in fact if you'll look at our shipset page you'll even see one or two on there for now. 
Former Senior Modeler, Texturer and Content Moderator (retired), Fate of the Galaxy
"I love your wrong proportions--too long, no, wait, too short
I love you with a highly symbolic torpedo up the exhaust port"
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Offline Flaser

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You're also missing the fact, that the Thrawn books came before any of the prequel films and were heavily cannibalized.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan