[knn]

Yes, much better

[WMCoolmon]

Yup, very nice and attention-getting.

[BlackDove]

I think you need to make a notification that it's also garbage as well as not canon.

Otherwise it's just a missrepresentation.

Oh and, if you intend to keep that atrocity in the Wiki, I suggest you start adding the Capellan BBQ theory, and the Space Badger theory as well as the Space Crack theory.

They are all equally valid examples of the Shivans and the FS universe just as that Manifesto is, so I don't see why they shouldn't be in the same category.

[WMCoolmon]

Garbage - That's just a little outside the scope of the document. Plus, adding that is just as likely to get people to blindly jump behind the Manifesto and start defending it as it is to convince people to your own POV.


For the other three articles...the BBQ theory (I'm guessing) comes from a picture in the MSPaint thread, the Space Badger theory was just developed in this thread as an hypothetically extreme idea for Shivan motivations, and I've never even heard of the Space Crack theory. None of them has become the subject of serious debate in threads, AFAIK.

I suppose, when it comes to fanon, I'm going to say that there's a difference between a 30-page persuasive essay using examples from several different sources within the three games, written to advocate a specific interpretation of events that a fair number of people in the community agree with, and a one-shot example somebody came up with for the hell of it that no one has really seriously put forth as a theory. Of course if you want to expand on it and put it forth within the community as a valid theory and have it gain acceptance by a number of people, like the Manifesto or any number of theories regarding Bosch and co., there you go.

[BlackDove]

All the easier to incorporate it to the Wiki.

After all, if you're not going to be making distinctions between coherent and "25 Quoted pages of the game material - then commented on with false logic" (<--what the Manifesto is), then there certainly is no distinction between funny images and said material that you already uploaded.

You said it yourself:

If someone were to write up a Space Badger theory as well-written, with about as many supporting points, and as popular as the Shivan Manifesto, by golly, it should be in the Wiki.

Incoherent conclusions and funny images should go hand in hand - one doesn't have to be written to be considered a valid idea after all - since we all get the point.

I suggest you start uploading images, considering they're primary sources of ideas that everyone understands equally as the manifesto - and I also would like you to write a big headline above them citing the same thing that the manifesto now enjoys - "The following information has not been confirmed by Volition and is therefore not canon for the Freespace universe."

[aldo_14]

Garbage - That's just a little outside the scope of the document. Plus, adding that is just as likely to get people to blindly jump behind the Manifesto and start defending it as it is to convince people to your own POV.


For the other three articles...the BBQ theory (I'm guessing) comes from a picture in the MSPaint thread, the Space Badger theory was just developed in this thread as an hypothetically extreme idea for Shivan motivations, and I've never even heard of the Space Crack theory. None of them has become the subject of serious debate in threads, AFAIK.

I suppose, when it comes to fanon, I'm going to say that there's a difference between a 30-page persuasive essay using examples from several different sources within the three games, written to advocate a specific interpretation of events that a fair number of people in the community agree with, and a one-shot example somebody came up with for the hell of it that no one has really seriously put forth as a theory. Of course if you want to expand on it and put it forth within the community as a valid theory and have it gain acceptance by a number of people, like the Manifesto or any number of theories regarding Bosch and co., there you go.

That's still no reason for it in the wikipedia.  Even by simply placing it in there you give it a precedence over other theories not within the wikipedia, something which is wholly unfair.  If we're going to have that sort of thing in there, why not every theory ever posted in length?   Why isn't there a criticism section alongside to highlight the flaws within it?  Why are we giving this one theory - which IMO isn't even solid - a veneer of acceptance overriding all others?

[BlackDove]

I wish I had the time to write all ideas I regard as insane into a few paragraphs and request them to enjoy equal attention in the Wikipedia.

If this thing remains, I most assuredly will try to find the time in the near future.

Conclusion nr1 will be that the Shivans at the end of FS2 were trying to blow up Capella because Bosch told them to after he boarded the Azrael transport. He was very angry at the GTVA, so he wanted to avenge the NTF by making a big boom.

That sounds awesome.

[WMCoolmon]

That's still no reason for it in the wikipedia.  Even by simply placing it in there you give it a precedence over other theories not within the wikipedia, something which is wholly unfair.  If we're going to have that sort of thing in there, why not every theory ever posted in length?   Why isn't there a criticism section alongside to highlight the flaws within it?  Why are we giving this one theory - which IMO isn't even solid - a veneer of acceptance overriding all others?

Because nobody has added the other theories? No one has added a criticism section? I wrote the article to present the document as neutrally as possible, ie to just summarize the document and make it clear that it isn't canon and isn't generally accepted as canon by the community. OTOH throwing on a criticisms section opens the actual pages up to debate and discussion, which has typically been the purview of the forum, rather than just information on pertinent topics. Wikipedia's done it though, so beyond that small thought I've got no argument if someone wants to go in and highlight the holes in the theory.

As for giving it a veneer of acceptance over others, it's hard to make other theories seem as impressive as the Manifesto because it's put together so well. Most of the Shivan Manifesto builds upon itself, while other theories I've seen are very selective and just extrapolate one conclusion from one set of circumstances.

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how including this in a reference document where it's easy to get to if someone is curious about it makes it any more official. It's like arguing that because the Christianity page in the Wikipedia is so long, while a Russian cult isn't even mentioned, that the Wikipedia is endorsing Christianity. No, mostly it just means that there are people that were willing to go to the trouble and add it, because more people in general do support Christianity.

The wiki, IMHO, should not be playing at deciding what is and what isn't...it should just be a repository of information regarding FS. A reference document, if you will.


BD, if I were to go with your argument - that the Shivan Manifesto is a steaming pile of **** and so it should be left outside the wiki - then we would be giving your opinion and your personal theory precedence over everything else. Any theory we included in the wiki WOULD be a sign of endorsement that we believed that the theory is somehow better than all the others and somehow more relevant to canon.

I figure you've obviously got no problem than that, but what if we replace "You" in that paragraph with someone else who believes that the Shivan Manifesto is the best theory out there? If you want to include aldo or I in that theory then I'm sure I could find two more people with the same opinion of the Manifesto. Perfectly equally valid reasoning, except that I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy with it.

[StratComm]

I still would argue that my first preference would be to not have any of that stuff in there at all.  I don't care if it's a theory I completely agree with; it's still opinion and falls outside of the mandate of the FS wiki (as a document containing all of the knowledge on the subject of Freespace that the community knows) simply because it's a fan-made story, in essence.  I don't mind an explanation of what it is in there, but we need to be very conscious of not biasing it one way or another besides the emphesis that it is not canon.  What would be good though (and we still need an "Origins of the Shivans" page) would be the perspective that Shivan origins are supposed to be completely mysterious and theories as to their motives, unless clearly backed up by documents or the games themselves, should be treated as nothing more than guesswork.

[karajorma]

From my FAQ

What else can you tell me about the Shivans? Why did they do x/y/z?

Very little is known about the Shivans. Probably [V] had planned to reveal more in FS3, but since it was never made we are stuck trying to deduce Shivan motives from what we know from the games and from a few cryptic comments by people who work in [V].

One thing we do know from [V] is that the Shivans are what we see in Hall Fight (a cutscene in FS1). They aren't wearing power suits like the aliens in Independence Day. We're not seeing a soldier race that works for the Shivans. What we are seeing is the real thing.

Another comment from [V] states that we should view the Shivans as "a symptom of a much bigger problem". Many people have taken this to mean that there is another species that the Shivans are at war with. Of course, if you have a better explanation, we'd love to hear it.

As for the Shivans' actions at the end of FS2, your guess is as good as mine.

I figured that was the best way to deal with it when I had to make a decision.

[BlackDove]

I'd just leave it at that. It's best way really.

WM, I'm not happy with any kind of an opinion in the Wiki, even if you state it's an opinion - it's just that the fact that the one you consider so high and mighty happens to blow, so it is proving the point why any opinions shouldn't be there.

And as a sidenote, I woudln't be putting myself in the line of finding it fascinating if I were you (as far as the Manifesto goes) - it's a fairly accurate showcase of how little you've given thought to the actual subject.

[WMCoolmon]

BD:

- Read my posts and get your facts straight before you start trying to tell me what I think.
- The fact that someone was able to construct thirty pages on the subject is definitely interesting, considering that no one else has bothered to do so since. From what it sounds like you're implying - That my opinion is somehow worth less, because I clearly haven't spent as much time thinking about a fictional race of aliens from a video game as you have - I must conclude that either you somehow feel threatened by the Manifesto, because it is better proof than you can present that this person's opinion is more relevant than yours. Or, however long that a person has spent thinking about the Shivans does not necessarily have bearing on the validity of a person's arguments.

Edit: And actually, BD, my page on the Manifesto is no more an opinion than the pages on user-based campaigns. Stating that any of them are "unreasonable" or "trash" would definitely fall under the "opinion" category.

Do you disagree that the Manifesto is non-canon? Do you disagree that the outline in the wiki is the outline of the Manifesto? Do you disagree that the Manifesto is "controversial"? (I hope not, as you've been very passionate about your dislike of it in this very thread) Do you disagree that the link to the Manifesto is in PDF form?

Edit 2: Am I to understand that you'll be railing against including an article on BWO or TVWP because they have non-canon storylines and are therefore merely an opinion on how things could have been? If not, then what if I or someone else goes and makes a campaign based on the Manifesto - it'll be a user-made campaign, and therefore eligible for inclusion in the wiki, along with the Manifesto, as that will be the basic idea of the campaign.

Of course in that case, you'll just have to hope that people don't like the campaign, or else we may have people trying to get that FS3 status within the community.

[WMCoolmon]

Anyway, I would think that having the Manifesto in the wiki would be a good thing for you. Assuming your competing theory is better and we have some 'Origins of the Shivans' page, then should be more skeptical of the Manifesto as they'll be able to compare the two, and the weaknesses of the Manifesto will become obvious. Rather than finding the Manifesto in an old thread via Google where practically all the replies are something like "This is really good!", where it's not obvious that anyone has much of a different idea from the Manifesto.

A malinformed populace is almost always more easily influenced than a well-informed one...

[BlackDove]

Haha oooooh this is getting boring.

.....okay let's go again.

I don't have to tell you what you think. I just need to quote you, which I did so above to blatantly point out that your opinions on this matter are false and unproductive.

As far as being threatened by the idea that the Shivans thought there are 80+ Colossus warships out to destroy them and fled - really are you kidding me?

The only thing that threatenes me is the fact that anyone scrolling through the Wikipedia will actually believe anything like that to be accepted as a valid train of thought. That SCARES ME!

As far as wanting BWO or TVWP to be in the Wikipedia - I don't want them to be in the Wikipedia for the exact same primary reason that I don't want the SM in the Wikipedia - and that is the fact that those opinions aren't FACT - neither the campaigns I'm involved with, or that 30 page long garbage. If I put BWO and TVWP into the Wikipedia, then I have to put that piece of **** in there as well, and that is percisely what I want to AVOID. There are good theories out there and there are bad theories out there, and because I can't make one fact and the other sensless bull****, because the only way I can do that is through opinion - I don't want ANY of it near the facts.

Do you get me yet?

[starfox]

Well, I like the Manifesto,it sure guarantees an hour or two of enjoyable text...
One question rose to my mind, that I believe has not been answered yet (Sorry if I'm wrong)

How the Shivans are..breeding. I mean, are they increasing numbers trough "normal" means, or is there set amount of them (Billions+)

I remember, that it was stated that the Shivans were "constructed" or bred by another species. If that Species is long gone, then how the Shivans are able to reproduce themselves...

Sorry, it's really an odd question, but...

[Goober5000]

I have no problem with non-canon stuff being included in the wiki (the FS Wiki, not Wikipedia - the latter should be only for canon) as long as it's clearly marked as such.  Otherwise there would be no good place to keep track of important information that people might like to reference.  The jump node inconsistencies are a good example, to toot my own horn. The Shivan Manifesto falls into that category IMHO, even if I disagree with just about all of it.

[aldo_14]

Because nobody has added the other theories? No one has added a criticism section? I wrote the article to present the document as neutrally as possible, ie to just summarize the document and make it clear that it isn't canon and isn't generally accepted as canon by the community. OTOH throwing on a criticisms section opens the actual pages up to debate and discussion, which has typically been the purview of the forum, rather than just information on pertinent topics. Wikipedia's done it though, so beyond that small thought I've got no argument if someone wants to go in and highlight the holes in the theory.

AFAIK Wikipedia doesn't print fiction in what is effectively a factual entry (as opposed to, say, storylines of books and movies or the background of fictional charatcers and places, etc), but with a 'this is not fact' disclaimer.  Moreso, the issue of what is and what is not fair criticism is something that would inevitably result in a pseudo-edit war.  And it the purview of the forum, as you point out.

Also, why should we be obliged to add all theories to the wiki?  Because that's the only fair way of dissemination, given the wikis' reference/factual purpose.

As for giving it a veneer of acceptance over others, it's hard to make other theories seem as impressive as the Manifesto because it's put together so well. Most of the Shivan Manifesto builds upon itself, while other theories I've seen are very selective and just extrapolate one conclusion from one set of circumstances.

It builds upon false or unproveable assumptions garnished as fact; moreso these are IMO very misleading and likely to send people in the wrong way.  Frankly, I don't find it a particularly impressive theory; there are gigantic holes within it, and I've seen a number of far better thought out theories from other campaigns

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how including this in a reference document where it's easy to get to if someone is curious about it makes it any more official. It's like arguing that because the Christianity page in the Wikipedia is so long, while a Russian cult isn't even mentioned, that the Wikipedia is endorsing Christianity. No, mostly it just means that there are people that were willing to go to the trouble and add it, because more people in general do support Christianity.

We're not talking about length competition between 2 factual entries though; we're talking about a fictional construct.  The wiki is a reference source; it is not a dumping ground for postulation or ideas - the forum is.  Why not go the whole hog and have people submit their ideas as wikipedia articles rather than forum threads?

The wiki, IMHO, should not be playing at deciding what is and what isn't...it should just be a repository of information regarding FS. A reference document, if you will.

Information being the key word.  Fiction (within the context of fact within the fictional Freespace universe being the canonical evidence) is not information, as it is not informative.

Also, it's valid to have entries on the storyline of the likes of TVWP because of context; it's a description of that campaign or mods fictional universe - what it is not, is an invention purely for the purposes of display, as the SM is.  It's like, we can have (in the 'main' wikipedia) descriptions of the FS2 universe, but not descriptions of a made up universe that exists only as an abstract and unused construct.

The SM is simply not of worthwhile reference; it has a welter of problems that, unless contested, can lead to similarly false assumptions being made.  I've already seen fallacities within it being quoted as if it was canon.  Moreso, it's validity is something that should be discussed in the forums, alongside every other theory.  I should not have to type up a 29 page PDF just to ensure equal reference within what is suppossed to be a respository of reference information - i.e. fact.

[aldo_14]

NB: still want criticism of the SM?

Criticisms of the Shivan manifesto
- Assumes that the Shivan body was designed to operate in space from scratch; when it is equally likely the Shivans evolved upon a planet and modified themselves over a long time to their current physical state; i.e. 'evolving' through need or desire to a non-planetary race
- Assumes the Capellan supernova was intentionally induced (rather than accidental side-effect)
- Omits details of Bosches reasoning for contacting the Shivans; namely his contact with GTI research (fighting the Silent Threat rebellion) and specifically information arising from GTI interaction with live Shivan captives.
- Highly assumptative of first contact between Bosch and th Shivans; namely assumes that a communication (enough to convince Bosch of a 'tentative alliance') somehow occurred with a translation error that allowed a conversation to appear perfectly logical to both sides, yet carry an entirely different and consistent meaning.  This type of consistency of meaning is incredibly unlikely for a translation; moreso it fails to explain how the Shivans knew the precise arrangements of the docking and how to identify command crew upon the Iceni
- Assumes the Shivans attempted to rescue POWs as a motivation for boarding the Iceni.  This has never occured in Freespace history; the only known example of Shivans journeying to captured Shivan specimens resulted in the destruction of the SC Tarnais and Tombaugh station - i.e. killing the captured Shivans rather than attempting rescue.
- Over-emphasies Boschs' 'love of humanity' comment; assumes Bosch would not want the Shivans to kill the Iceni crew, yet this is the same Bosch as masterminded a rebellion costing thousands of lives; and all this for a diversion.
- Assumes the size and nature of the ETAK device; and whether or not it was reproduceable by the (highly advanced) Shivans.  Presumes manual communication is impossible, even though this would be a circumstance anticipated by Bosch if he was to meet the Shivans face-to-face (so to speak).  Also makes a false comparison between 1940s computers and the ETAK device; namely that in the FS2 universe it would be impossible to make a portable prototype, despite the centuries in the future this represents (also, it has been suggested by Volition employees that nanotechnology is possible in FS era, and thus so would be extreme miniturisation).  Additionally, this assumes ETAK is a primarily physical device, rather than a software program driving existing technology.
- Error in that it assumes Bosches logs, data, etc are only kept on his laptop (referring to the ability to rebuild ETAK) rather than copied across multiple ship based databanks or even solid media.
- Assumes the Shivan attitude towards humanity; whilst referencing the violent contact in FS1, it completely omits the key difference in the 'Iceni incident' - namely that communication was made.  Bosch explicitly mentions that an era of 'tragic misunderstanding' is over; implying a change in the Shivans expressed attitude.
- Assumes the Shivans have shunned diplomacy, without considering that it may not be a natural part of their psychological makeup (i.e. that any 'normal' race would automatically wish first contact and peace, rather than attack).
- Suggests the Shivans are energy-based lifeforms inhabiting an artificial body (although not explaining how and why this body was constructed); thus any conclusions based upon this are open to question.  Moreseo, begs the question as to why a race with no interest in planetary inhabitation (effectively confined to their ships) needs individual bodies.
- Issue over the 'immediacy' negating the theory of Shivans as created cyborgs (assuming created by another race rather than themselves); namely this is no reason why the Shivans cannot be ancient, given their know 8000 year history and the FS2 suggestion their attacks through space are cyclical (it would take a very long time to travel an entire galaxy; it's not inconceivable for the FS1 and FS2 fleets to be actually part of the same force, and seperated by 32 years as a result of sheer distance to travel).
- The Shivans do not disregard planets entirely; they have destroyed at least 3 (Altair, the Ancients homeworld, Vasuda Prime).  Also, they do not disregard technology; for example, they attacked the convoys carrying shield prototypes in FS1 (alongside other examples).
- Subspace damage being incurred by travel is, of course, a complete guess.  As is - more importantly - that the Shivans have drives that do not damage subspace, and yet the GTVA has not identified what would surely be fundamental differences as a result of their study of captured Shivan vessels.
- Virtually all of the subspace damage/repair physics is assumed guesswork.
- Assumes the Shivans must have a base, with no evidence(in FS1/2) to support this.
- Assumption of the reasons why the GTVA does not wish to use main beam cannon upon the Knossos leaves other opportunities; for example that it may be too slow (strategic) to destroy such a strong construction, or that there may be problems if the entire structure is not destroyed simultaneously (scientific)
- Fails to explain how the Shivans could not activate or understand (the purpose of) Knossos portals, whilst stating the SHivans have an inherent and unparalleled knowledge of subspace.  It seems highly unlikely a race formed of subspace wouldn't be able to understand exactly what a subspace affecting device was doing.
- Assumes the Shivans failed in FS1 (we don't know if their priority is xenocide, if the FS2 fleet was a continuation of that attack, or if FS3 would see the Shivans resume their attack.  Moreso, we don't know if Bosch changed the Shivans plans in FS2 from being of destroying the GTVA to something else)
- Assumes that the Shivans attack races for using subspace, rather than for fighting with each other (a key point of the previously referenced FS1 monologues was that the Ancients were being punished for their subjugation of other races)
- Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from Capella to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non juggernaut) forces.  It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the Sathani and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.
- Assumes the Sathani cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through 1 or more unstable nodes.
- Massively assumptative over the purpose of Shivan Comm Nodes.  Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself.  Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the Lions Den mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed).  This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 Sathani might just have been needed for the Capellan star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).
- Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a Sathanas type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVAs tactics for attacking such a vessel.  It's worth noting that the 2nd time the Colossus encountered a Sathanas, its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attack.
- Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force.  This is likely to be wrong for several reasons.  Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the Great War, and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development.  Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to rebellion.  Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans aquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, et al.  It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.
- Assumes the Shivans would retreat from a large GTVA force rather than engage; especially given the previous attribution of the Shivans to be xenocidal and determined to 'defend' subspace.  This would imply the Shivans are in fact just bullies, who run from any larger force rather than 'defend subspace'; assumes that leaving the GTVA to rebuild would be preferable for a race whose fight is for survival.
- Also assumes the Shivans would be somewhat stupid, in that it should be blatantly obvious the GTVA would not withold such a large and war-winning force, especially when taking heavy losses in Capella.  Any simple tactician would know it is nonsensical to sacrifice lives and territory if you have a war-winning advantage.  This reasoning requires a high level of naivety from the Shivans.
- Assumes that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create an extremely large (physical dimensions) jump node, rather than the (Petrarch suggested) long distance node.  This does not explain why the Shivans would sacrifice so many ships; effectively their entire non Sathani fleet, as well as a number of the juggernauts.  It's one thing to retreat - it's another to do so in a manner that loses a massive force, especially when you have a clear escape route (Gamma Draconis)
- Largelies upon the assumption of a Shivan hive mind and fight or flight response to justify retreat - where the 'flight' instinct is caused by irrational and unsupported fear.
- Evidence of Shivan retreat is flawed; in all cited cases, the 'retreat' can be justified as simple tactics rather than the characterised 'fight or flight' response; a cruiser requiring resupply, a cruiser group attempting to combine forces with another, a destroyer protecting the weak rear of the first Sathanas.  None of these are also equatable to a full-scale retreat, being individual movements within a large scale offensive.
- Assumes the Shivans, a race with ability to build at least 80 Juggernauts, would consider the (arbitrarily calculated) 2.6m casualties figure as being significant.
- The Colossus' movements themself shows the Shivans would not assume a vast Colossus fleet was inbound but merely taking their time; there is more than sufficient time for a large force of that size to travel to the Capella, etc systems in time to engage the Shivans - the Colossus manages it in spite of also having to fight the last dregs of the NTF.  Also, the citing of capital ship movement time fails to consider intra-system jumping (instanteous).  Also, it fails to consider that the Shivans might be able to detect GTVA subspace drives and thus ships - something made only more likely if we accept the notion of Shivans as literal subspace beings.
- Assumes the Shivans would be concerned about the time period for destroying all GTVA stars; this is a species which has seemingly waited for 8000 years.  This is also a species which, based on the manifesto, would now view the GTVA as their number one enemy.
- By this stage of the Manifesto, there is no consideration of Bosch - one of the most important characters of the game storyline, who provides much of the exposition - is ignored, largely because some of his statements would contradict the Manifestos assumptions.
- Mentions the GTVA studying Shivan comms systems - but the GTVA has never (as far as is stated) studied a communications 'nexus', only ship level systems.
- Describes the Lions Den system as 'highly defended'.  However, if this system was a staging post for the attacks upon GTVA space, it would naturally be full of capital ships arriving, departing, or being supplied and maintained for launching attacks; just think of any marshalling point for a modern day invasion or attack.
- Assumes subspace energy is unstable; this is (admittedly arguably) unsupported by FS, which only mentions subspace nodes (points - in realspace - where the fabric of subspace is strong enough to support travel) as being unstable.
- Assumes the Shivans needs comm nodes as life support systems, yet fails to mention why they have not been seen before in FS1 or FS2 (particularly the former).
- Assumes that the Capellan supernova does not damage subspace but all other novas would, as an explanation of why Capella was 'chosen'.
- Unforunded assumption of living or grown Shivan vessels; this is not supported by any of the tech statements in FS1 or FS2 (particularly relating to retrofitted Shivan fighters).  Additionally, the dexterity of the Sathani arms in the FS2 end cutscene is scarcely unusual or inexplicable for a purely constructed vessel - just look at an F-14s swing wings and add a few centuries (or millenia) of mechanical engineering.  A minor issue is the use of metallic 'grating' type textures in Hallfight - whilst this would not rule out 'grown' technology, it is not visually indicative of it in the way you would expect it (a visual indicator of Shivan technology) to be.
- Describes the Shivans as a purely energy based lifeform inhabiting physical bodies temporarily simply to move in realspace, than describes them as retreating to a physical station, in subspace, with their ships.  Why would the Shivans not move about in their natural energy form?  Also, the concept of a subspace 'hub' is unsupported by any evidence from Freespace.
- Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.
- States it is established that Shivan traffic is proportional to species subspace traffic - this is in no way established.  Especially as there is no exemplar for any level of subspace traffic from the Shivans, let alone what the variances in the levels of Ancients, Terran and Vasudan traffic have been over the past 8000 years; this is purely stated (as unsupported fact) in order to justify a similarly unevidenced assumption of how Shivans can perceive locations in space.
- Assumes Shivans cannot transmit messages in long distance; namely that the Lucifer was unable to communicate with 'home'.  This is wholly unsubstantiated and based on a number of assumptions - that the Lucifer had time to ask for assistance, that the Sathanas fleet was retreating in FS2, that no reinforcements were sent after the Lucifer was destroyed, etc.  This also misses the possibility to suggest a use for Shivan Comm Nodes - i.e. that type of ultra-long distance or inter-spatial communications.
- Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the Trinity into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior.  This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathani fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.
- Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace.  Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than xx billion years after.
- Describes planets, stars, etc as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?
- Describes the Shivans as manipulating matter - but fails to explain how this can mesh with the previous description of their perception as being only upon the level of subspace rather than physical object.  Also fails to explain why the Shivans would evolve in the subspace dimension and yet develop an ability to perceive matter - essentially, this portion of the manifesto assumes essentially human characteristics of investigation and understanding, but places them within the context of a wholly alien environment (one where normal relativistic physics do not even exist) and upon an alien immeasurably different from any real-space type life.
- Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan.  This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond it's creator.  Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)
- Another issue of living ships is that there is no explanation why these ships would be alive - could the non-corporeal Shivans harness an evolved living (space faring) animal?  If not, how else could they acquire such a technology  - given that they are as far physically and scientifically removed ('born' from non-relativistic space) from normalspace life as possible (i.e. not genetic engineering - I would doubt an energy race has genes in any way equivalent to normalspace biological animals).
- Opts to dismiss the FS2 box text on very spurious grounds; namely by assuming a Shivan scout force (the Lucifer fleet) would be small, yet not considering what 'small' constitutes for a race as powerful as the Shivans.  This also omits the concept of a scout force that is also permitted to attack an enemy when it has superior forces.  For example, Force Recon forces perform both recon operations and destruction of key enemy installations; it's perfectly plausible the Lucifer fleet was tasked to identify a target, and then perform various combat actions (depending on the scale of threat posed by said target) intended to weaken or even defeat the enemy whilst a larger force was enroute (for example, the FS2 Shivan fleet; perhaps delayed by distance or caught behind an unexpected Knossos).
- Assumes that the GTVA has never researched Shivan engines, simply by dint of engine glow colours in one mission.
- Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and TV technology; however, the Hades had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the Lucifer (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the Silent Threat debriefings).  It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.
- Incorrect summation of Bosches motives for the NTF rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosches fighting the GTI in the Hades rebellion led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancients ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and it's activation methods).  This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifestos general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.

[karajorma]

One question rose to my mind, that I believe has not been answered yet (Sorry if I'm wrong)

How the Shivans are..breeding. I mean, are they increasing numbers trough "normal" means, or is there set amount of them (Billions+)

I remember, that it was stated that the Shivans were "constructed" or bred by another species. If that Species is long gone, then how the Shivans are able to reproduce themselves...

Sorry, it's really an odd question, but...

You're wasting your time asking us. None of us wrote the manifesto so any answer to an unexplained question would be complete conjecture which is completely unconnected to the complete conjecture of the manifesto

As for the manifesto being in the wiki why don't we just take a poll on the matter and go with what the majority want? I don't think it should go in just cause WMC put it in otherwise we've set the dangerous precident that any discussion on the wiki can simply be preempted by someone just editing it to add what they wanted.

[WMCoolmon]

Haha oooooh this is getting boring.

.....okay let's go again.

I don't have to tell you what you think. I just need to quote you, which I did so above to blatantly point out that your opinions on this matter are false and unproductive.

No, you haven't.

As far as being threatened by the idea that the Shivans thought there are 80+ Colossus warships out to destroy them and fled - really are you kidding me?

Hey, it's no more improbable than weapons 300 years from now having a 2km maximum range.

The only thing that threatenes me is the fact that anyone scrolling through the Wikipedia will actually believe anything like that to be accepted as a valid train of thought. That SCARES ME!

There are far scarier things in this world. You could make your posts a lot shorter by being less dramatic.

As far as wanting BWO or TVWP to be in the Wikipedia - I don't want them to be in the Wikipedia for the exact same primary reason that I don't want the SM in the Wikipedia - and that is the fact that those opinions aren't FACT - neither the campaigns I'm involved with, or that 30 page long garbage. If I put BWO and TVWP into the Wikipedia, then I have to put that piece of **** in there as well, and that is percisely what I want to AVOID. There are good theories out there and there are bad theories out there, and because I can't make one fact and the other sensless bull****, because the only way I can do that is through opinion - I don't want ANY of it near the facts.

Do you get me yet?

Now that you've switched from "I don't like the Manifesto so it shouldn't be in there" to being a little more mature, yup.