Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mad Bomber on December 21, 2001, 04:48:00 pm
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I've noticed that people in the FS community tend to look at cruisers just as mobile anti-fighter platforms, like the Aeolus, Leviathan, and Mentu.
But, people generally don't think of cruisers being much good against other capital ships (with the exception of the Lilith).
So my question is, why not make more anticap cruisers? They would be cheaper to pump out than a corvette, and easier to replace. Not to mention, 2 cruisers can be in more places at once than 1 corvette. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
And they wouldn't necessarily perform poorly against fighters. They just wouldn't perform quite as well as a ship devoted to such a role. Which means that an anticap cruiser and an antifighter cruiser would make a great team.
Anyone agree/disagree? Because I've only seen 3 anticap cruisers (Tyr, Dainishi, Tuket) and I figured that the GTVA could learn a lesson or two from the Shivans in that respect.
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Well, I'm making the Argoso into POF as we speak with the help of Untouchable. Pretty had to do. 2 Terran huge, 2 Flak guns, and 6 SGreens. Not very well defended against fighters but that is not what is was built for now was it. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Well Venom2506 has his Gaia, its a Capital ship alright, not a Cruiser but its really quick. The Size of a Cruiser means its not always a ideal platform against capships due to its reactor size and most cruisers lack hangers (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) .
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Yeah... it deals with science fact inside of sci-fi. Do you put a BFGreen on a sentry gun? How would you explain a sentry gun having that much power output? Doesn't matter... it's sci-fi? Yeah, but sci-fi can be more believable when you stick to known facts.
So, for anti-cap cruisers it's once again a balance of forces. But big guns on it, and you can only put a few guns on it. How big of guns do you want... then how big of a reactor do they need... then how big of a ship have you got.
I say I'd like to see some good anti-cap cruisers that have a good balance. Like a cruiser that's basically a flying gun which needs two anti-fighter cruisers to protect it. Then you could have this trio of small ships flying around blowing up the big guys. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
Well Venom2506 has his Gaia, its a Capital ship alright, not a Cruiser but its really quick. The Size of a Cruiser means its not always a ideal platform against capships due to its reactor size and most cruisers lack hangers (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) .
The Dainishi cruiser is exactly what this thread is about, check my forum more often (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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I do, but you complain about the fact i seem to metion hangers if every post i make and it usually manage to stay on topic.
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The question is, what good are corvettes then?
I look on it as Cruisers are screening units with a secondary antiship role, Corvettes add on extra protection and lotsa anticap weapons, Frigates are oversized 'vettes with minor small craft capacity and Destroyers have scads of fighters and big guns.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
The question is, what good are corvettes then?
I look on it as Cruisers are screening units with a secondary antiship role, Corvettes add on extra protection and lotsa anticap weapons, Frigates are oversized 'vettes with minor small craft capacity and Destroyers have scads of fighters and big guns.
Good point. But I think that, at least with (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif)'s ships... all the ship classes have the ability (whether small or great) to defend themselves against fighters. I guess if we had an unlimited ships.tbl, we'd be creating ships fulfilling every spectrum of each class (anti-fighter cruisers to anti-cap cruisers, and so on in each class).
Although... why would the GTVA make a cruiser (or any ship) with all it's power in one field (like anti-cap firepower) when it might get stranded with no cover against fighters?
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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I think Cruisers should be anti-fighter platforms, Corvette's have Capital ships covered. Fighers and Bombers are dangerous and thus should be planned for, Cruisers handle this role well.
EDIT: Just some information reworking.
[This message has been edited by Zeronet (edited 12-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by joek:
Good point. But I think that, at least with (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif)'s ships... all the ship classes have the ability (whether small or great) to defend themselves against fighters. I guess if we had an unlimited ships.tbl, we'd be creating ships fulfilling every spectrum of each class (anti-fighter cruisers to anti-cap cruisers, and so on in each class).
All modern miltary ships have some AA capability, if nothing more than a phalanx CIWS or two. That's the equivalent of an Orion with it's couple of AAA beams and terran turrets. But something like an Aeolus is designed to slaughter fighters by the bucketload, and has a good turret density and efficient AAA weaponry as well.
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For a sentry gun to use a BFGreen, it'd have to be a size of at least a Fenris or Leviathan. It needs the space for a reactor strong enough to power a BFGreen, but even then it could damage itself and have a loading time by doing that.
Think about Gundam Wing with Fortress Barge and that other one. They had to recharge after every shot, and on the other one, those scientists made it so the main weapon broke down every time it fired.
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Idea..Command hollows out the Fenris, takes some parts and engines for use on the GTC Peleus (good god, I'm pimping someone else's campaign) and other ships, and puts a BGreen in there. Not as effective as a Mjolnir, but there are plenty of the chassis remaining.
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The cannon would have to be mounted on the side with the sheer size that a BFGreen is.
With a engine and a beam like that, you would have to power down the engines to fire the weapon, and power down the beams to power the engine.
I'd think the thing would break down if you tried firing while your moving. Or at least rattle the ship like hell.
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Yeah, I mean scrapping the engines completely - just leave them hanging around permanent installations o rin an orbital defence network or something.
Also, with a BGreen or something less powerful than a Mjolnir#Home at least -
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You could have it like a mobile weapon that docks with a transport or warship that moves it around.
Something like that would be very susceptable to bombers and fighters because of its main weapon, you couldnt put much more on it unless you want to blow the reactor.
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I have been toying with the idea of artillery - slow moving ships with one heavy cannon.
Stats:
French 75 - a small, quick firing artillery, about the size of a cruiser. Fires every 6 seconds or so. (moves at a speed of 15ms)
Napoleon - big huge heavy gun fires every 10-12 seconds. Can take a Leviathan down to 50% integrity in one hit. (10ms)
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A loading time of about 15-20 seconds would be better for a weapon that drops a Leviathan to 50% Hull.
Unless its a weapon designed to take down Destroyers and Super Destroyers.
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I agree with Shrike that the primary role of a cruiser is to be an anti-fighter platform with light capital ship offense capacity. (i.e. park two of these with an Orion or Hecate and you got yourself covered)
The Tyr though is meant to be a quickstrike prototype for the GTVI. Able to defend itself with long range flak and a GTW-70 series laser turret per firing arc. (i.e. flail/morning star tech, heavy refire and kientic damage to shoot down bombs and missiles as well as but time for the flak)
It's fast and broadsides ships as well as has an extremely powerful set of forward slashing beams in combination with the spine-mounted cannon.
It's larger then a cruiser, while smaller then a 'vette. So wether or not it's really a cruiser is debatable. The actual firepower is weaker then a Deimos due to limited firing arcs on it's main beams.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Originally posted by TheVirtu:
Unless its a weapon designed to take down Destroyers and Super Destroyers.
Well, it's supposed to be able to destroy cruisers easily and damage corvettes, but destroyers are a bit tougher, and their beam weapons have enough range to take them out. Artillery are slow and have almost no armor, so a fighter squad could take one out.
I haven't worked out all the specifics; I, however, plan to make a 5-second delay cannon to be fit on a bomber I am making.
Ace - You could follow Aldo and call it a War Cruiser..
[This message has been edited by Alikchi (edited 12-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ace:
It's larger then a cruiser, while smaller then a 'vette. So wether or not it's really a cruiser is debatable. The actual firepower is weaker then a Deimos due to limited firing arcs on it's main beams.
Uh, the term 'heavy cruiser' comes to mind. And since I designed the damn thing.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/drevil.gif)
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I can imagine seeing a BFGreen Platform, about the size of an Aeolus, with no engines. It will have 2 crew controlling it remotely, 1 BFGreen and it'll have a weak flak weapon to somewhat defend it.
It'll probably have light armor and have special bracing to keep the platform from falling in on itself from the pressure of the weapon firing.
Perhaps calling it a GTVB(Galactic Terran Vasudan Beam)Titan.
[This message has been edited by TheVirtu (edited 12-23-2001).]
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What about a Triton freighter pushing around a Mjolnir. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
That'd be cool. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
[This message has been edited by joek (edited 12-23-2001).]
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Last time I checked, those things dont dock.
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Yeah... it would take a modeler to fix that, but the idea is cool. Both things already have their own power supplies, so linking them together would give you something like an anticap cruiser.
Heck... if that's all it takes, just making a cruiser the size of those two put together, and claiming that it has two reactors (one for weapons and one for engines) would make an anticap cruiser.
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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*scratches head* Colossus is a superdestroyer Anticap (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
I just got done playing Millennium campaign and I would like to have a head bashing so I dont remember it.
Oh the spelling! The Colossus barely used those nice cannons either! It sat there just flying into space.
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Big ships kill big ships. Small ships kill small ships. Trying to change this balance is often pointless. Cruisers were made as a means of eliminating fighters and try to change the balance, for doing this they are forever condemned to get their asses whooped by the bigger ships.
It is feasible to give larger ships a small capacity for taking on smaller ships (ie destroyers anti-fighter weapons, but they ain't that effective). If you make a ship that can hold its own against a destroyer and wipe out wave after wave of fighters then it would be too hard to destroy. Basically it would be a destroyer with anti-fighter beams instead of fighters. POintless.
Anyway isn't the Iceni kinda an all purpose ship?
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Yea, it has Destroyer-class beams on it, its fast, and can defend from fighters.
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I don't think it can defend from fighters that well, it has Terran Huge Turrets.
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Originally posted by Alikchi:
Idea..Command hollows out the Fenris, takes some parts and engines for use on the GTC Peleus (good god, I'm pimping someone else's campaign) and other ships, and puts a BGreen in there.
Thaaaats right (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
And the Peleus has an MGreen, not a BGreen. It's an antifighter cruiser anyway. Basically it's an Aeolus-like ship made out of Fenris parts, thus making it much cheaper than the Aeolus but fulfilling a similar role. (there weren't many Aeoluses left anyways...)
Anticap cruisers wouldn't necessarily have to have poor antifighter defense to be balanced. Take the Lilith for example. It has clusterbombs, an SAAA, and Megafunk turrets. Not the best against fighters but the clusterbombs do kill AI rather nicely.
Originally posted by an0n:
Big ships kill big ships. Small ships kill small ships.
Not necessarily. The Lilith has an LRed and it can incinerate a corvette or frigate, or even a destroyer (with enough patience).
Besides, what about bombers? Small kills big there too! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Big ships kill big ships. Small ships kill small ships.
I wouldn't say so too... Often small ships are built to chase bigger ones. They wouldn't last long in a direct battle but can approach their target quickly and drop some shots at it. Smaller ships are a threat to bigger ones. That's why the big ships surround themselves with other smaller ships to keep them off.
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Originally posted by Starwing:
That's why the big ships surround themselves with other smaller ships to keep them off.
That's the whole point (and fun!) of having a FLEET! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/techsup ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup")
"At least I have job" - Unidentified Soviet Flak Trooper before being prismed.
"Sword, meet evil! Evil, meet my sword!" - hmm wonder who said that
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I see anticap cruisers as essentailly one big gun- not too powerful on their own, but put half a dozen together and pit them against anything. You really can't just beef up the weapons on a cruiser, they're smaller and weaker for a reason, and it ruins the balance of a game. Try it sometime- something like a Mjolnir with engines and thicker armor- they're great if they're none too fast as well, since they spend most of their attention on the gun, just specialty ships built for heavy fleet coverage... you could also have a midrange vessel, basically a small corvette (That's what corvettes are, Shrike) with some light anticap and some relatively vicious antifighter weaponry...
How 'bout something like a remote-controlled Argo loaded down with high explosives- basically a really, really big missile that acts as a capship in the game? You can send it into a swarm of fighters, and when they blow it up (it would have to be rather weak, what with the unstable explosives), it lets out a shockwave killing much of the enemy fleet. Wanna nail a heavy capship? Just get it close enough and ram it into the thing! This seems to be the way the GTVA is heading anyway after FS2, with all the kamikaze Orions, etc.
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But when the argo is launched it would preumably come out of a capship's cargo bay and if it's blown up near there, oops.
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/techsup ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup")
"At least I have job" - Unidentified Soviet Flak Trooper before being prismed.
"Sword, meet evil! Evil, meet my sword!" - hmm wonder who said that
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But it doesn't come out of a capship cargo bay! Well, maybe it comes attached to a special unarmed command ship, in packs of, say, four a ship. And preferably something not an Argo, but sorta the same long simple shape, and slightly smaller. The idea is that you have to protect it until the moment you want it to die- and then you might actually have to kill it yourself in some missions.
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Erm... the Lilith is an anticap cruiser and it's not considered unbalanced.
Kamikaze capships... it's a very expensive tactic. The GTVA only did that with the Bastion and Nereid because that was their only option, and because those destroyers had been decommissioned anyway.
Anticap cruisers wouldn't be defenseless against fighters or whatever, either. What would be the point in making a huge reactor and a huge weapon, if it couldn't defend itself?
I'm not saying one of these heavy anticap cruisers would be as good against fighters as an Aeolus or a Peleus (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif), but it could at least defend itself from bomber attacks for a bit.
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I was just thinking, how much power do you think an AAA beam takes? if you were to shunt all the power that were used on the total of all those beams (say on a aeolus), and shunt it to one powerful beam (think homeworld ion cannon frig), then you have a fast, manuverable heavy beam cannon platform. And by using proper AI tactics, it could avoid getting hit by more powerful beams on larger ships, by manuvering to a blind spot on the craft, and when the larger ship moves, the smaller covette can move with it, unlike say a destroyer that would suddenly face the wraith of the larger ships forward beam array
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Originally posted by Alikchi:
Well, it's supposed to be able to destroy cruisers easily and damage corvettes, but destroyers are a bit tougher, and their beam weapons have enough range to take them out. Artillery are slow and have almost no armor, so a fighter squad could take one out.
I haven't worked out all the specifics; I, however, plan to make a 5-second delay cannon to be fit on a bomber I am making.
Ace - You could follow Aldo and call it a War Cruiser..
[This message has been edited by Alikchi (edited 12-22-2001).]
Why dont you go the proper thing and call it a Frigate, which is actually is. Packs more than the Cruiser but just doesnt pack Corvette power.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber:
Anticap cruisers wouldn't be defenseless against fighters or whatever, either. What would be the point in making a huge reactor and a huge weapon, if it couldn't defend itself?
I'm not saying one of these heavy anticap cruisers would be as good against fighters as an Aeolus or a Peleus (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif), but it could at least defend itself from bomber attacks for a bit.
Why should it? Ever heard of an artillery gun? For **** against mobile infantry, airstrikes, etc., but it can knock a hell of a hole in armored units or installations. Or an antiaircraft installation? Can't take on a tank column! Why do these exist at all, if they aren't the Swiss Army knife of war? because they're very good at what they do! Artillery pieces can be defended by troops. So you give an anticap cruiser a fighter escort. You throw it in with an antifighter cruiser or two. You use it to augment a destroyer's weaponry! Would you pit one of FreeSpace's standard cruisers against a Ravanna? Then why fret when an anticap cruiser can't deal with an Ursa? Not saying that a lone anticap SHOULD be able to kill a Ravanna, but a group of two or three would have a fighting chance, something a comparable fleet of Aeoluses or Leviathans doesn't have- though they could pulverize a wing of fighters.
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You're missing the point tho. Anticap cruisers are not just mobile artillery. Not in the sense I'm talking about. I'm talking about a GTVA equivalent of the Rakshasa or the Lilith.
The GTVA wouldn't be dumb enough to give such a powerful cruiser a poor antifighter defense. Not if they've learned anything since Capella. Of course, this is Command we're talking about, but still...
Originally posted by Zeronet:Why dont you do the proper thing and call it a Frigate, which it actually is.
Because the Iceni was a Frigate, and that was larger and more powerful than a Corvette. I call it a Heavy Cruiser but keep the GTC/GVC designation.
Of course, that's only my designation convention.
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Visited the Winds of Fate forum ("http://pub97.ezboard.com/fmetalsirensforumsfrm4") lately?
Project leader of the Eden Project, its MODs, and all three of the campaigns included in it.
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So... basically all you want is a cruiser-sized ship that can knock down a destroyer. I will not comment on your horrible taste in ship types. I will simply ignore that and focus on those who want realistic designs that leave the game chllenging. If you want to just blow up a lot of really big things with the GTC Ultrasupermonstrokiller, size 42 meters, then let me know when you are designing a campaign so I can save that much more space on my poor, cramped HD. And if you say I'm exaggerating what you said, which you will, then I'll tell you the Terran fleet is SUPPOSED to be weaker than the Shivan one, mock you a little, and suggest you open the tables and make some Shivan ships playable and set Terran IFF defaults to hostile.
"If the GTVA has learned anything..." Er, what? Didn't the GTVA try out the toughest ship they could make, only to get it pulverized by one out of 100 Shivan ships? If they learned anything, they would have learned that you can't beat the Shivans with just bigger guns- they need better tricks. This is a good start.
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Umm, I AM doing a campaign. Three of them in fact. In fact, you were the one who did the original DXF of the GVC Tuket, remember? :P
It's not capable of super uber killing or anything. 4 SVas beams isn't very powerful compared to corvette power. Definitely not enough for one of them to take on a destroyer solo.
And, yes, I upped the stats on some Shivan ships and weapons to compensate for the GTVA's increase in tech. And the Shivans have some nifty new toys to frag us with, that no one has seen before (with the exception of Fulgrymm and myself). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Visited the Winds of Fate forum ("http://pub97.ezboard.com/fmetalsirensforumsfrm4") lately?
Project leader of the Eden Project, its MODs, and all three of the campaigns included in it.
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The Iceni shouldnt of been called a Frigate, using standard military designations.
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
The Iceni shouldnt of been called a Frigate, using standard military designations.
yeah, and cruisers aren't cruisers, neither are destroyers, if you want to use standard military designations.
and corvettes should be the smaller capships.
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Using standard designations destroyers should have been battlecarriers, corvettes cruisers and cruisers destroyers probably.
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I actually never quite understood why the cruiser was placed above the destroyer in real naval designations... (the title "destroyer" sounds like it would be for bigger and more powerful ships)
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Because a cruiser is a big ship that cruises the seas until it comes across an enemy while destroyers are more of a search-and-destroy craft and escort. Well, at least probably...
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I wish people would do more Carrier type ship (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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MB: Yeah, I remember. Don't question my rhetorical speach when I browbeat you, damn it!!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) And that thing was a CRUISER??? I thought all along it was the equivalent of a Psamtik! My point about the supercruisers stands!!!
But come to think of it on the whole it is a good direction- I always hated how damn frail say, a kilometer-long Orion with 10000-man crew was when put in perspective with a one- man Ursa (or even, say, a Myrmidon). So long as you keep fighters and bombers about as strong and just make capships a lot tougher, it could possibly improve on the original...
Zeronet: I did. People laughed at me.
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Yes, that is a cruiser. 4 SVas main armament. It also looks much different from when you did it.
SVases aren't horribly powerful. You're acting as if i put 4 BFGreens on a bomber or something.
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Looking slightly more in depth here, there was probably some major earth based war in which smaller sea/air/space little destroyers defeated the cruisers in a battle. Over time the destroyer became celebrated and grew in size and strength while the cruiser did little to change. Thats why the reversal of names
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber:
Yes, that is a cruiser. 4 SVas main armament. It also looks much different from when you did it.
SVases aren't horribly powerful. You're acting as if i put 4 BFGreens on a bomber or something.
No, but an SVas is significantly more powerful than a SGreen or LTerSlash.
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Yeah, but i toned down the SVas. Instead of 350 dmg it's now 300 dmg.