Author Topic: Their Finest Hour  (Read 11802 times)

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Offline Snail

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It WAS the Shivans'/Nazis' Finest Hour because they just beamz0red/bombed the (arguably/surrender monkeys) largest threat to their plans, the Colossus/France.

 

Offline Mobius

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Are you ok? Since when something Made in the GTVA is strong enough to pose a threat? That would be funny... :lol:
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Offline Mongoose

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I don't see what's so incredibly hard to understand about this.  Churchill's quote refers to his desire for Britain to put up the best fight it possibly could, even if said fight was in vain in the end.  They may lose, but they were sure as hell going down fighting tooth and nail to the last man.  In the same way, even though the Colossus was overcome, its crew sacrificed their lives to give the Bastion more time and, subsequently, save the human race.  It's the classic case of a glorious last stand.  That's it, really.

And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too.  The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that.  The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process.  Good fortune, simple as that.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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It WAS the Shivans'/Nazis' Finest Hour because they just beamz0red/bombed the (arguably/surrender monkeys) largest threat to their plans, the Colossus/France.

Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.

Besides, put the other way, it makes no sense. It was the high water mark, the place where the tide turned against.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 10:13:20 pm by ngtm1r »
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Offline Snail

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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.

What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.

What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Winning isn't everything?"

Churchill was basically stating that whether or not the British prevailed or not, they ought to put up one hell of a fight. Not because they would necessarily win if they did so, but because there was some inherent value in putting up that fight, and in putting up the best fight possible, and even if they did prevail, they would be remembered for 1000 years for their courage, bravery, and devotion to duty.

Britain, at that time, had watched a number of defeats and I'm not sure if the US had even entered the war yet. So they were facing interminable odds. If Churchill had gone on about actually winning the war, they probably would've thought he had lost his mind (I don't think anybody was that good of a speaker - they'd be twisting reality.) So instead he chose to praise the act rather than the achievement. It's like if you win the race, and you get praised for doing your best. There are sound reasons for that, of course - if you consistently try, you're more likely to do better than someone who slacks off and does a half-assed job. But overall, a lot of people truly think that there is some abstract value in simply putting up a fight or going into something with your entire heart, and that's what Churchill's playing to.

Putting that into the current context, the Colossus was also facing interminable odds. There was clearly no way it could win against the Sathanas. Yet rather than turn tail and flee and desert its post, it chose to go down fighting. Granted, in the context of the mission, it's arguable whether that was truly the best thing to do. But at that point you have 30,000 people sacrificing their lives to at least try to simply buy some time. If that doesn't qualify as attempted heroism, I don't know what does.

That mission is also the last mission where the GTVA engages multiple capships, up to a destroyer, in a straight-out fight and comes out victorious in many cases. The total number of capships destroyed is probably greater than virtually all of the missions in the campaign, save for the blockade one. It's only the Sathanas, which the GTVA had no way of destroying short of a planned surgical op, that wastes the fleet at the jump node. So truly, even though the GTVA force at the node was eliminated, they still did a better job than most of the forces that you saw in the rest of the campaign had, at least in terms of causing Shivan casualties.

I really don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this. There are a lot of TV shows and programmes and movies that outright praise bravery and heroism over the enemy that has the technological advantage and superior forces et cetera. Granted they usually win, but a lot of times they are forced into a situation (much like the GTVA) where they seem to lose, winning is untenable, and they have a small moment of quiet, and then somehow pull a victory out of their ass that they could have only made with the sacrifice of some force in a great battle. There's no reason to expect that the GTVA wouldn't have done something like that, given that it's exactly what happened in FS1.

So overall, I think that both the Churchill quote and the mission name both have the same thing in common, they're praising an act of heroism in a time of almost certain defeat. It's not meant to be ironic in any way.

Or, let me put it in yet another way - how do you motivate someone to fight when they know they're going to die?
-C

 

Offline General Battuta

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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.

What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.

Churchill himself, as well as everyone who studies him, will tell you that you're wrong. Because you're wrong!

Even grammatically, 'their' in 'their finest hour' is referencing 'the British Empire.'

 

Offline Snail

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Okay.

 

Offline General Battuta

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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.

Ehh. I know I can be a little overbearing at times, but that seems a bit much. I didn't really set out to make a massive post on the subject, but by the time I'd gotten through all the different ways of explaining it, it had gotten to be massively overgrown.
-C

 

Offline Snail

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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.

I LIKE CHEESE!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 05:58:13 am by Snail »

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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I try not to be a Mobius. :)

Is that what this is all about? :wtf: You asked for an explanation, and I gave you one - many, actually. I didn't mean to be condescending, but I can certainly see how you would read it that way. If you really want to, you can - that's your choice.
-C

 

Offline General Battuta

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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.

Ehh. I know I can be a little overbearing at times, but that seems a bit much. I didn't really set out to make a massive post on the subject, but by the time I'd gotten through all the different ways of explaining it, it had gotten to be massively overgrown.

Uh, I just meant the way he said 'okay' and admitted he was wrong. Nothing about your post, Coolmon, I thought it was great!

 

Offline Snail

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By "I LIKE CHEESE" I mean, after having 10 people telling me hundreds of reasonable explanations, I end up repeating myself.

edit - oh crap Mobius is online...

edit - oh crap now he's posting!!

edit - phew, he didn't notice.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 06:10:08 am by Snail »

 

Offline Mobius

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And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too.  The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that.  The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process.  Good fortune, simple as that.

That's a forced explanation. I see that program on TV and the best way to explain it is using the expression "do or die". Clash of the Titans II could be named "La Ruota Della Fortuna"...many other missions could have that name.

So overall, I think that both the Churchill quote and the mission name both have the same thing in common, they're praising an act of heroism in a time of almost certain defeat. It's not meant to be ironic in any way.

I agree. There's a reference to acts of heroism in general. British pilots who fought the BoB were heroes. One of them wrote a book called "Their Finest Hour", why don't you read that book and find explanations? We could find interesting coincidences.

Mission names are vague, they refer to something connected to the mission but don't offer specific explanations.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Uh, I just meant the way he said 'okay' and admitted he was wrong. Nothing about your post, Coolmon, I thought it was great!

Whoops.  :o
-C

 

Offline Mongoose

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And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too.  The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that.  The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process.  Good fortune, simple as that.

That's a forced explanation. I see that program on TV and the best way to explain it is using the expression "do or die". Clash of the Titans II could be named "La Ruota Della Fortuna"...many other missions could have that name.
It's not "forced" at all.  The entirety of the mission consists of a stroke of good luck that saves the GTA from having to worry about the HoL outpost.  The mission debriefing states as much in no uncertain terms.  While it's true that many missions feature sudden situational changes that require updated objectives, La Ruota Della Fortuna was one of the only examples I can think of where the change was to the GT(V)A's benefit.  And I don't see how the title works for Clash of the Titans II in the least; that mission had no unexpected twists and nothing to do with luck.

Considering the fact that Singh was able to fill a whole thread connecting mission name references to the events of said missions would suggest that the names aren't "vague" in any sense.  The :v: designers knew what they were doing when choosing the names, and many of them contain quite clever historical references.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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I agree...To me, there was always a hidden meaning to the mission name. Some times it's obvious like "A giant in the Mist" Sometimes you have to actually know the term used in the name. And sometimes it takes a little imagination...But that hidden meaning has some conection to the actuall mission

Thanks Lobo...couldnt remember which it was
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 02:11:55 am by terran_emperor »
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Offline Jeff Vader

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23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline karajorma

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From the wikipedia entries

Kings Gambit
Quote
The King's Gambit is a chess opening that begins:

    1. e4 e5
    2. f4

White offers a pawn to divert the Black e-pawn and build a stronger center with d2-d4. Theory has shown that in order for Black to maintain the one pawn advantage, moves must be made that seriously weaken the position of the Black pieces.

Sicilian Defence

Quote
the reason for the Sicilian Defence’s popularity “is its combative nature; in many lines Black is playing not just for equality, but for the advantage. The drawback is that White often obtains an early initiative, so Black has to take care not to fall victim to a quick attack.
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