Author Topic: Tempest wankery  (Read 15495 times)

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Well campaigns that use AAA heavily on insane can be a bit hard on occasion, cuz there is no avoiding beams, there's no absorbing their damage either, simply, get hit by it until you're either out of it's fov or removed it from existence :P

FS2 however does not make heavy usage of AAA, you're more likely to get mobed by flak.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Actually, the problem is that I just can't go anywhere further than the third mission of the main campaign in Insane (you know, the "I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense" mission), because you simply can't possibly survive the 6 AAA that the two cruisers bring at you while trying to lure the escort away. And yes, I've tried to take them out with the Rockeye's superior range and anti-subsystem capability, but that's usually not enough. And the Hatshy won't come and rescue you until you take out those Lokis. So yeah, maybe there are less AAA in the rest of the campaign, but I'm not gonna experience that anytime soon. I stick to the Hard difficulty, it fits pretty well my playing style :p

So basically you're saying that Tempests should be your primary secondary. :P
Hehe. This.
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Offline Scotty

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Actually, the problem is that I just can't go anywhere further than the third mission of the main campaign in Insane (you know, the "I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense" mission), because you simply can't possibly survive the 6 AAA that the two cruisers bring at you while trying to lure the escort away. And yes, I've tried to take them out with the Rockeye's superior range and anti-subsystem capability, but that's usually not enough. And the Hatshy won't come and rescue you until you take out those Lokis. So yeah, maybe there are less AAA in the erst of the campaign, but I'm not gonna experience it anytime soon. I stick to the Hard difficulty, it fits pretty well my playing style :p

I got stuck exactly there.  My wingmen kept evaporating, and I was unable to lure Lokis away from either of the cruisers.  They were almost to the jump point by the time they hit me with a good AAA again and got me.

 
You only really need to take out two of the beams, then some aggressive use of your wingmen will cover you enough to blitz all the Loki..
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Scotty

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All the walkthroughs in the world won't help if you aren't a good enough pilot to pull it off.  I can't manage insane (but I can play Hard, at least, if not well).

 

Offline Mongoose

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I think both NGTM-1R and Battuta could stand to take a bit of a breather here, and everyone else could tone back on fueling the flames.  I've re-named the title to something a little less directly inflammatory, since I don't see anything productive about that.  We're all adults (or close enough) here, and we should be able to discuss topics like this in a civil fashion.

As for the main topic at-hand, I'd like to interject my own limited perspective into the mix.  I said in the original thread that I personally find Harpoons far more useful than Tempests, and I should probably elaborate on that statement.  Whether due to my current joystick setup, or my innate lack of skill, or some combination of the two, I generally perform very poorly at fine-aiming tasks.  My usual tactic for taking on enemy fighters involves pegging my primary trigger and struggling to keep the target in my sights as much as possible, and if one in ten shots lands, I consider that successful.  (It's probably more like one in twenty when fighting something like a Dragon.)  For this reason, I've generally never played above Easy difficulty, so I can still have a decent chance at hitting things.  Given that most ships you can fly seem to have secondary bank positions that are less conducive to direct aiming than the primaries, I could easily see myself expending the better part of a bank of Tempests and landing only a few on my target.  With Harpoons, I'm reasonably guaranteed that the majority of my secondary shots will hit my target (at least now that the countermeasures bug is fixed, anyway).  DPS is all well and good, but only if you're able to exploit the full amount of damage, and I feel I have a much better chance of doing that with a Harpoon or Tornado than a Tempest.

(Plus, there's just something cool about using aspect-lock missiles. :p)

As a side note, I do think that NGTM-1R had somewhat of a point about both Insane difficulty and Fury's AI.  While the former may apply artificial restrictions to the enemy AI, I'd wager that the majority of the members on this forum have never even attempted playing at that difficulty level, and I doubt that :v: expected most of the game's players to use it either.  As for the latter, while Fury's hard work on it is certainly extremely commendable, the fact remains that enabling it takes the gameplay out of the realm of pure FreeSpace to a third-party mod.  When discussing a topic in purely retail-game terms, I'm not quite sure what purpose citing it serves.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Quick question : who use the mouse and who use a joystick/other controller ? I use the mouse, and I think it makes for better accuracy, but it may be different for other pilots.

And yes, it's related to the topic, given that the usefulness of the Tempest depends greatly on the ability of hitting something with it :p
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Rodo

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As I've always said:

Loki + Tempest = WIN
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline headdie

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As I've always said:

Loki + Tempest = WIN

going light i have always preferred the Perseus but then i usually play easy/medium
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 03:31:30 pm by headdie »
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Offline Qent

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I use the mouse. I could barely hit anything when I tried a joystick; I don't know if that's my fault or just the suckitude of my joystick.

 
Mongoose;
Fury's AI is closer to the original FreeSpace AI than SCP AI is anyway so....... :P

Insane = Player and AI on equal terms.
None of this player somehow magically takes less damage from the same attack bull****.
None of this player somehow magically does extra damage with the same weapons bull****.

More or less everything is equal 'cept skill, the AI is rather limited and will only do a few things (especially on SCP builds rather than pure retail 1.2).

What holds true for insane is many times over more effective on lower difficulties because the modifiers aren't on-off, they're multiplicative and easily applicable across the board while only having experienced one difficulty.
To me, there is no discernible difference between medium and very easy, and very little difference between medium and hard.
Insane however has a step up over hard which is pretty obvious and that's because the last of the multipliers are totally removed.

There are a few exceptions (the energy refill rate on weapons I believe is still above-"normal" on insane, but AI get hardcoded infinite weapon energy on insane anyway so meh :P)
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Qent

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Infinite? I didn't know that. Enemy only or friendly too? I want my wingmen to be Taurets with Kaysers. :D

Speaking of AI, does Fury's AI make the AI not suck with Tempests?

 
Yes to both (though, I only have multiplayer information for that so I don't know....but it's why the lamprey is THE WORST coop/single player weapon in the game bar none) and Yes it makes Fury's AI pretty decent with the tempests.


About the controls by the way.
Joysticks, even well configured ones, tend to be the best turners, but the least accurate (*training rigorously - especially on multi can fix this).
Keyboards, when used expertly are inbetween both other mediums, having joint best turning for most skill levels, and easier to grapple accuracy.
Mice, when used properly have the slowest turning (and no matter what, will never make that up), but by far and away the highest accuracy.


Mice users (good ones) used to really be the bane of my existence in multi, JS and KB users I just flew 'round until they made a mistake, but mouse accuracy made getting that far on a player that knew how to properly use morning star was virtually impossible.
Don't mess with mice users in a joust.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Scotty

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I use a joystick, just to put in my two cents worth.

 

Offline Iranon

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Well, things certainly aren't equal when AIs get unlimited weapon energy. On a related note, I believe energy regeneration for humans matches the AI's at Hard, not Insane. Afterburner recharge at least is a straight match for the table entries on Hard and slower on insane (and I think I've seen AIs keeping up with me at full power to engines and burning, on Hard. This should be impossible if AI always flies under Insane rules).
I have no evidence for shield and weapon energy regeneration, but assume it's the same.

 
The AI doesn't so much get infinite energy but faster recharging energy.  They can and do run out (when using stuff like Maxims) but they'll also get the energy back quicker.

There are many times I switch to Subachs because it's the only weapon that will not run out of energy while I'm mid-mission because on Insane the recharge rate is a trickle even with weapons heavily boosted.

Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets.  Both mean it's significantly harder and in fact needs to be considered when using the AI because it can literally break missions that did not intend the AI to have access to a powerful long ranged missile that requires no lock (the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries).  Or even secondaries at all since the normal AI doesn't use Tempests.


As for missiles, I've been a fan of the Tornado over the Harpoon because of the extra range.  Tempests are great but only if the mission is the type where I can deal with everything myself.  Aspect missiles enable me to project force in several directions nearly simultaneously.  It's the reason why I (and I'm sure most people in retail) favor the Trebuchet whenever it's available.  They're also a lot easier to use which counts for something even on its own.  Of course, the AI is generally better with aspect missiles than trying to shoot down their intended targets.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 05:08:49 pm by ChronoReverse »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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There are many times I switch to Subachs because it's the only weapon that will not run out of energy while I'm mid-mission because on Insane the recharge rate is a trickle even with weapons heavily boosted.
^This. You can already feel the loss in recharge rate from Medium to Hard. Kayser in Hard is already a no-no.

Quote
Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets.
Yes to Tempest, no to Trebuchets. Unless you throw ingame a ship with both the "bomber" and "huge" flag, the Trebuchet can be used by AI only with the correct sexp.

Quote
(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

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Quote
Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets.
Yes to Tempest, no to Trebuchets. Unless you throw ingame a ship with both the "bomber" and "huge" flag, the Trebuchet can be used by AI only with the correct sexp.

Nope. Fury's AI lets the AI use Trebs without good-secondary-time.

 

Offline The E

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Quote
(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?

The code says so.
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Offline Sushi

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Quote
(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?

The code says so.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's true, as I've found out a couple of times. :p