[Marcov]

If the Vasudans are capable of manufacturing a bomber force of that size, considering the GTVA had different types bombers, why didn't they use them to neutralize the Sathanas fleet?

Given that, in Bearbaiting, only several bomber wings were required to disable the Sathanas' main guns. With that, shouldn't several thousand/ten thousand GTVA bombers be able to disable the Sath fleet instead of wasting an Orion on blockading a node?

Any ideas?

[The E]

Obvious answer: Logistics. Even if you have that many bombers, concentrating them in one place isn't easy. Keeping them supplied with spare parts and ammunition is neither easy nor cheap. Also, Bombers constructed != Bombers in service.

[Dilmah G]

Well maybe subtract about 500 for bombers lost, subtract 500 for reserve aircraft per squadron, and double the remaining number for number of pilots. The latter part is what's significant as well as logistics. Where are all those pilots going to sleep if you pile them into one system? You have to drag their respective destroyers from their Battlegroups to the area of ops.

And that means you more or less decapitate each Vasudan Fleet, since the destroyers form more or less the C3 for their fleet. It's simply unsustainable. However, this gives you a great advantage as you can rotate the squadrons fairly easily, so you don't have tired and battle weary pilots on the front line for over 30 days. You may have been able to supplement perhaps 3 squadrons at most to the 13th BG, but you definetely can't concentrate all those bombers in one place.

And then there's also the issue of escorting those bombers, and the Shivans aren't stupid. If they see that many bombers heading at them, they're going to call for help or perhaps run tail until they meet their friends. Then you're going to be in one helluva fight, think, fleet on fleet battle possibly. It's a delicate balancing act.

[Kie99]

Assuming a single Sathanas carried even half as many fighters on board as the Colossus, and assuming there were 80 Juggernauts, the Juggernaut fleet would have carried 9600 fighters.

[Snail]

C-3-1!!!

[Dilmah G]

That wouldn't work, actually, if he was talking about the entire Sath fleet.

[Kolgena]

6000 bombers != 24000 Helios.

Since it's very unlikely that the GTVA would pack anywhere near that kind of ordinance, you'd basically have a majority of the bombers packing junk like Cyclops. That wouldn't be very good.

[Snail]

6000 bombers != 24000 Helios.

Since it's very unlikely that the GTVA would pack anywhere near that kind of ordinance, you'd basically have a majority of the bombers packing junk like Cyclops. That wouldn't be very good.

Or no fuel.

[TrashMan]

There was a unspecified number of other shivan craft fighting around with the GTVA..and the GTVA force wasn't all concetrated in one system.

[Snail]

There was a unspecified number of other shivan craft fighting around with the GTVA..and the GTVA force wasn't all concetrated in one system.

Actually, the Shivans only came from one direction. Canonically, all (conventional) combat with the Shivans took place in either the Nebula, Gamma Drax, Capella, or at the systems adjoining Capella (Epsilon Pegasi and Vega), where node blockades were set up.

The GTVA was, however, fighting with the NTF at the same time on multiple fronts.

[BengalTiger]

Well 6 000 is really a VERY small number on a galactic scale.

There were over 10 000 P-38's, nearly 8 000 de Havilland Mosquitos, 2452 A-26 Invaders, around 6k Beaufighters built (not counting others), and Allied soldiers on the Western front still didn't have instant and constant air support. And that's on a very small fraction of a single planet, Freespace takes place in whole planetary systems (sometimes many at once).

In other words- I'd assume that there may have been even a few hundred thousand GTVA fighters and bombers flying around, but the space they occupied was so huge, that seeing over a dozen at once was pretty rare.

To me the big question is how did they carry them when destroyers had hangars for 100-150 ships?
It would take a few dozen of them to give the Bakhas a mobile place to land, and there were many more ships of various types which need a hangar to operate.

Did the GTVA have hundreds (thousands?) of GTD's, GVD's and installations, or were there carriers in the fleet capable of taking many hundred ships or planetary bases that somehow didn't make it to canon?

[Black Wolf]

Planetary bases would be my guess. I'm reasonably sure there would have to be a more diverse range of carriers than just destroyers, but still, 6000 of a single class - even assuming it's a very common one - means 10s of thousands, probably well over a hundred thousand fighters total, across all classes. Way too many to accomodate on any realistic number of carriers.

That said, IIRC, the tech entry said that 6000 had been manufactured. It's not inconceiveable that a reasonable chunk of them had been lost fighting the NTF or whoever.

[Gamma_Draconis]

I wouldn't be surprised even if half of that number was lost in action or damaged beyond repair considering how fierce and deadly the engagments in Freespace. Unfortunately, the only real conflict was the NTF Campaign since the description was made before the second Shivan Incursion which was far shorter than the Great War.

[MatthTheGeek]

Did the GTVA have hundreds (thousands?) of GTD's, GVD's and installations, or were there carriers in the fleet capable of taking many hundred ships or planetary bases that somehow didn't make it to canon?

Dozens of destroyers is already doubtful, it's probably closer to a single dozen.

[Dilmah G]

I'd doubt that. I'd say at least one destroyer a fleet, for C3 on the move, two or three per fleet sounds more likely to me. The whole nature of the Shivans makes it imperative every fleet in the GTVA is equipped to deal with an incursion. Although I'd say during the SSI the fleets in contact were bolstered a fair bit by the supporting GTVA Fleets doing **** all.

[BengalTiger]

Did the GTVA have hundreds (thousands?) of GTD's, GVD's and installations, or were there carriers in the fleet capable of taking many hundred ships or planetary bases that somehow didn't make it to canon?

Dozens of destroyers is already doubtful, it's probably closer to a single dozen.

Well, I wouldn't be surprized if there were at least 12 Terran fleets and 13 Vasudan battlegroups, with 2-3 destroyers each.

That gives us 50-75 destroyers, so a single dozen would be a really small number with this in mind.

[Snail]

That's a rather large number. My personalllll estimate would be between 10-25 for each species.

[MatthTheGeek]

50 destroyers is just ridiculously huge. If they could build as many destroyers during the reconstruction, they would have been able to build a dozen Colossuses too. Seriously, I keep thinking a dozen, two at most. And if I can understand that there is at least one destroyer per fleet/battlegroup, I don't see the GTVA having 25 fleets/battlegroups with 3 destroyers in each. That's just retarded.

[BengalTiger]

50 destroyers is just ridiculously huge. If they could build as many destroyers during the reconstruction, they would have been able to build a dozen Colossuses too. Seriously, I keep thinking a dozen, two at most. And if I can understand that there is at least one destroyer per fleet/battlegroup, I don't see the GTVA having 25 fleets/battlegroups with 3 destroyers in each. That's just retarded.

So 2 dozen Hecates and Hatshepsuts. Add another 2 dozen older ships, and we'll get close to each fleet having 2 D's. Pretty plausible too.

However there are 10 named Terran and 8 named Vasudan destroyers in FS 2 according to the wiki (not counting the NTF), and I doubt that they'd be the vast majority, since the game takes place with roughly 3 fleets and covers a few systems.

[Snail]

Does anyone think it's reasonable to say that the GTVA manufactured any Orions during Reconstruction?