Author Topic: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?  (Read 5999 times)

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Offline Adept

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Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Greetings gang.

I'm a die hard Wing Commander fan, so I've been really happy to see projects like WC Saga. I installed it yesterday, and was thrilled to see options for mapping side/top/down thrusters to my controller.

Let me clarify the following a little. I love the WC games that, like the original, have a significant inertia in the ships movement. A few games like Wing Commander IV didn't have this, and instead had ships that move like they were on rails (á la X-wing & Tie Fighter games). I find those painful to play, and only played them through to see the story.

Wing Commander Apocalypce, on the other hand, is my personal favorite of the whole bunch. Storyline is good if not the best in the series, but the gameplay is utterly brilliant!

So... I fired up WC Saga, and when I got to the actual gameplay I discovered that I was flying an x-wing afterall. Sidethrusters don't work, and the ship moves on rails without any inertia   :sigh:

So how come the sidethrusters are in the setup? Does the game engine support inertia and free movement?

  ***

I also write to give you fellow space fans a tip about another classic game that is doing great. Click on the banner (or the link if it's not working) and see the glory that is Allegiance. You'll also find out why sidethrusters are so important to me  :cool:

/edit banner is not working.

www.freeallegiance.org
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 08:42:40 am by Adept »

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
The inertia stuff is supported by the engine but each mod has decide for itself to use it or not.
As for the WC games. WC1+2 had some kind of inertia/newton physic but it wasn't very well done. I even think that WC1 had it done better then WC2.
WC3+4 didn't had anything like that. Since we are doing a WC3 mod our gameplay tries to get as close as possible to the original. The only ship in WC3 that had the possibility to do some fancy stuff was the Arrow. With its glide mode you could do some quite drastic maneuvers.
Only WC5 (Prophecy not Apocalyce) had some semi-newton physics engine that resembled what they had tried with WC1.



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Offline IceFire

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Sidethrusters weren't really a part of the WC games at all.  You could perform the famed "Shelton Slide" afterburner powerslide move which I was a huge fan of in WC1 and 2 but that didn't really translate in WC3 and 4.  WC Prophecy added inertia nicely back into the gameplay.

I also suggest you look a little bit closer at how the ships fly.  The FreeSpace engine has allot of range of options for dealing with inertia (just look at the Battlestar Galactica MOD) and its definitely present in the WC Saga demo but its not all the way out there and its seems to be to be in line with the game that they based the whole thing off of.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline Adept

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?

I also suggest you look a little bit closer at how the ships fly.  The FreeSpace engine has allot of range of options for dealing with inertia (just look at the Battlestar Galactica MOD) and its definitely present in the WC Saga demo but its not all the way out there and its seems to be to be in line with the game that they based the whole thing off of.

This is a bit cryptic. What should I be looking at?

I don't see the "slide" effect at all, The ships are very nimble, and seem to fly on rails. I admit it's how things worked in WC 3 / 4, but I really hated it in them. Is there a possibility for us players to adjust the game reality to WC 1/2/Apocalypse style or WC 3/4 style as is our preference? If not, can it be done?

I'd really like to play this game, since the graphics and voice acting are good, and I want to see the story.

Like I implied above, I mostly fly with and against human pilots in Allegiance these days, so I'm rather a demanding customer.

Sidethrusters & inertia would be a sweet option, but I wonder how the game's AI would cope with it? Check out how it works in Allegiance. The reverse / sidethrusters are much weaker than the main thrusters.

Also, am I correct in that the afterburner is much more powerful than in the original games, and that there is a really large amount of fuel?

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Quote
This is a bit cryptic. What should I be looking at?
The BSG Mod has a more Prophecy like flightstyle. Check out the mod its worth it.

For the slide effect you have use the Arrow and then activate glide. Then turn around and you will see what its like.
Non of the other ships has this.
For a "realistic" flying...no. As said we are going for a recreation of WC3. We allready have played a little bit with different values but it will be basicly keep the WC3 flighstyle.
You could change these things youself if you go into the tables and edit the values youself.

As for the afterburner. No its not stronger or longer lasting then in the original games...well at least in the latest internal version. I haven't played the prologue config for quite some time now but there shouldn't be much differance between the original game and our mod.

Quote
I wonder how the game's AI would cope with it?
I don't know if the BTRL guys made any changes to the AI but the flightmodel they had worked pretty fine with the AI but I can't remember seeing the AI using the sidethrusters.

Personaly I like the idea of a blend between the Prophecy and WC3 flightmodel but again its a WC3 mod and the current plan is to stay true to the original.

PS: Its not Apocalypse its Prophecy.
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Offline Tolwyn

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
I don't see the "slide" effect at all, The ships are very nimble, and seem to fly on rails. I admit it's how things worked in WC 3 / 4, but I really hated it in them. Is there a possibility for us players to adjust the game reality to WC 1/2/Apocalypse style or WC 3/4 style as is our preference?

Thankfully not by default, but it is not the point, is it? You can alter flight model by editing *.tbl files. All necessary tools are provided on our website in the downloads section. Information on how to enable alternate flight models can be found in the FSWiki.

Quote
Also, am I correct in that the afterburner is much more powerful than in the original games, and that there is a really large amount of fuel?

Not really. We did increase afterburner fuel amount slightly. Then again, our missions take longer to finish, afterburner usage is essential. So it is a tradeoff between using original values and having a moderate difficulty level.
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

 

Offline Adept

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Thanks. I'll see about modding it then.

If I can put in some inertia and enable even weak directional thrusters you'll have me hooked   :cool:

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?

I also suggest you look a little bit closer at how the ships fly.  The FreeSpace engine has allot of range of options for dealing with inertia (just look at the Battlestar Galactica MOD) and its definitely present in the WC Saga demo but its not all the way out there and its seems to be to be in line with the game that they based the whole thing off of.

This is a bit cryptic. What should I be looking at?

I don't see the "slide" effect at all, The ships are very nimble, and seem to fly on rails. I admit it's how things worked in WC 3 / 4, but I really hated it in them. Is there a possibility for us players to adjust the game reality to WC 1/2/Apocalypse style or WC 3/4 style as is our preference? If not, can it be done?

I'd really like to play this game, since the graphics and voice acting are good, and I want to see the story.

Like I implied above, I mostly fly with and against human pilots in Allegiance these days, so I'm rather a demanding customer.

Sidethrusters & inertia would be a sweet option, but I wonder how the game's AI would cope with it? Check out how it works in Allegiance. The reverse / sidethrusters are much weaker than the main thrusters.

Also, am I correct in that the afterburner is much more powerful than in the original games, and that there is a really large amount of fuel?
Already in WC: Saga there are inertia values...if you kill your engines then the ship doesn't instantly stop.  It takes its time.  If you bank hard the ship will slide slightly.  Its not immediately obvious...its a very subtle effect in WC: Saga but looking at the tables its clear that the team did take into account these effects.  For the Arrow it is very much like being on rails while in the Thunderbolt the whole motion is a bit more sluggish and it doesn't immediately correct on course right away.  Its subtle...its not out and out obvious and thats basically how Wing Commander 3 played.

The AI can very easily handle having slide capabilities.  In FreeSpace 2, for instance, the SF Mara has allot of slide capabilities.

Its definitely not on rails...the engine can do all sorts of things...but when you're producing a MOD that is meant to replicate Wing Commander 3...going with that games conventions is the challenge.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline Adept

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Wing commander 3 had a great, if grim story. The gameplay was really disappointing for me, as it lost the significant inertia of WC 1 & 2. I'll have to change the settings to get some of it back, and I suspect then I'll enjoy this game very much.

  ***

Can somebody tell me how to use my avatar here? For some reason I can't find the option.

For your amusement, here is my Allegiance banner.


 

Offline Adept

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Can you guys also give some specific pointers about how to go about increasing the inertia, and how to enable the directional thrusters?

 
Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Can somebody tell me how to use my avatar here? For some reason I can't find the option.

   Uh, you notice how many users have Avatars here? None. Save Goober, who's an admin. You can't find the option because there isn't one. Which is just as well imo. I'm sick of visiting the classic battletech forums, reading a thread and seeing everyone's 1 line posts take up half a page because they've got some huge avatar and 6 lines of graphics in their signature. A bit ridiculous if you ask me. Morphius/Mobius whatever's blue italics are annoying enough (no offense, but they are).

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
As Tolwyn allready mentioned the is the FS Wiki where you can find informations about what values have to be changed to get a stronger feeling of interta.

@Akalabeth Angel
What CBT Forum are you speaking of?
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
@Akalabeth Angel
What CBT Forum are you speaking of?

oh, just for the dumb boardgame http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/. You might be more familiar with the computer game side of things, in the Mechwarrior or Mech Commander series.

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
No I am quite familiar with the boardgame but I don't visit the english board so I was wondering what big avatars you where talking about ^_^
The new TRO3075 just got me into thinking of rebuilding my old party again. Problem is that we have not common freetimes. Most likely it will end up in a play-by-mail system.
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 
Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
No I am quite familiar with the boardgame but I don't visit the english board so I was wondering what big avatars you where talking about ^_^
The new TRO3075 just got me into thinking of rebuilding my old party again. Problem is that we have not common freetimes. Most likely it will end up in a play-by-mail system.

      Oh, so you're on the German side of things? Yeah, that's one thing that drives me nuts about that board. Big Avatars, quotes, and now everyone's got this gif file crap in their sig that says like "Clan Jade Falcon" along with "Alpha Galaxy" "Beta Galaxy" etcetear. Some people have like 12 of those damn things. I play once every few weeks with a local group, but I've lost interest in gaming of late.



      Anyway, back to wing commander. Backlash gave me some file so that my crap video card could stomach the bomb explosions. So I finally got past the defend the fleet mission. But I got an overall question, as someone unfamiliar with Wing Commander. Are the Kilrathi fighters crap? In general? Like are they all rather easy to kill?? Because I've now tried and failed the carrier escort mission, but in the dogfights the Kilrathi missiles are rather easy to avoid and the ships aren't that much of a threat. I compare this to the Terran pirates in one of the first missions that blasted the crap out of me numerous times. I mean one missile hit and I was almost a goner. Are the Kilrathi sort of technological inferior but numerically superior? Maybe I should check out the techroom, might have some info, but not at home right now.



 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Maybe I should check out the techroom, might have some info, but not at home right now.

Or you could check out the database on our website.

The Kilrathi craft you face in the Prologue are mostly light and medium fighters - heavier craft had been excluded from the demo version.
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Both Darkets and Dralthis are very common mass produced fighters that are thrown at you in masses. A single one isn't much of a thread.
Problem is that for some people its quite hard to avoid the missiles as they are. Others think they are to easy to avoid and aren't doing much damage.

Storywise Confed is indeed just a little bit superior in terms of technologie then the kilrathi but they have much less capships and fighters.
IIRC at the end of the Kilrathi war Confed had only half the number of carriers then the Kilrathi and no one knows the exact number of fighters but it could be a 1:2 or even 1:3 (coonfed:kilrathi)
Thats also the reason why Confed is even sending old ships like the Victory, beeing older then the Tigers Claw from WC1, to the front lines.
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 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
Reading from the story side elements of the wing commander universe it appears that kilrathi tech was way below confed at the beginning of the conflict but was steadily catching on. That is before WC1...
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Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
I allways got the impression that the Kilrathi whern't that far behind Confed but that Confed made faster advancements then the Kilrathi during the war. Like the development of the cloak, Behemoth or Templor bomb out of nowhere. But the most war changing weapon is still a kilrathi development...the torpedo. Before that battles where more between battleships. Terrans developed the idea but the Kilrathi where the first to use them.

I think the reason the kilrathi failed in catching up with the confederation was that they didn't developed weapons themself but had slave scientists since there isn't as much honoure in science a in fighting.
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 
Re: Looks gorgeous, but where is the inertia?
The main reason of the Kilratihi ships beeing inferior to terran counterparts is different philosophy and sotial structure of the cats. Darket and Dralthi fighters may ni inferior to their human counterparts but are much faster and cheaper to build, wich means the Empire can throw much mor of them. Theye are flown mostly by non-nobilyty, wich mean that their pilot's lives are worthless for their nobile superiors. Also, kilrathi mature much faster than humans, wich means the replacments are also faster. If you compare the havier fighters, flown mainly, if not exclusively by nobility, you'll find that they are equall or even superior to their confed counterparts (i.e. Vaktoth have weaker shields than T-bolt, but is more manouvreble, a bit faster iirc and carry more missiles, while having equal gunpower, and Pakthan is also superior to longbow in any aspect but shielding).

In Saga prologue the fighters you face are either light and chep darkets and dralthis, Gothris wich are not-so-new or zarthos wich are electronic warfare ships and tot really combat fighters.

Technologicaly speaking, most innovations during the war were kilrathi developed (cloaking, torpesoes, particle cannonnos, etc) so you cant say cats are technologically inferior to humans