Author Topic: What happened to these cool features from retail?  (Read 10609 times)

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Offline Nuke

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
that or something like it will probibly be re-implemented when we get our new pilot files and the possibility for new controls is added.
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Offline z64555

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
I miss being able to hold Keypad Ins (0) and being able to look around in cockpit view. Why'd it get removed?

Freelook mode was disabled whenever the TrackIR stuff was first added in. I made a patch some time ago that re-enables freelook while keeping the TrackIR functioning (hopefully). I think the plan for it now is to add freelook mode along with the new analog and digital slew controls after the pilot code gets in trunk, so it'll be in soonish.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
While we're talking about such things, doesn't the pending addition of the new pilot code finally give us the potential to break out of the four-axes-on-one-controller limits?  I know it'd still be a separate thing to implement, but I seem to remember taylor saying a long time ago that the original pilot files were what was preventing an attempt at it from happening.

 

Offline z64555

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
While we're talking about such things, doesn't the pending addition of the new pilot code finally give us the potential to break out of the four-axes-on-one-controller limits?  I know it'd still be a separate thing to implement, but I seem to remember taylor saying a long time ago that the original pilot files were what was preventing an attempt at it from happening.

Yes. If I did my homework correctly, the pilot code is the last remaining milestone to allow for full usage of the DirectInput controllers (I think a max of 128 or 256 buttons, and a max of 6 or 9 axes). The SDL code a little further down the road should allow for multiple controllers/joysticks and also allow for even more buttons and axes.
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z64555: s/J/Do
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
I miss being able to hold Keypad Ins (0) and being able to look around in cockpit view. Why'd it get removed?

Freelook mode was disabled whenever the TrackIR stuff was first added in. I made a patch some time ago that re-enables freelook while keeping the TrackIR functioning (hopefully). I think the plan for it now is to add freelook mode along with the new analog and digital slew controls after the pilot code gets in trunk, so it'll be in soonish.

Ok, I waited a decade, I can wait a bit longer :yes:
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
While we're talking about such things, doesn't the pending addition of the new pilot code finally give us the potential to break out of the four-axes-on-one-controller limits?  I know it'd still be a separate thing to implement, but I seem to remember taylor saying a long time ago that the original pilot files were what was preventing an attempt at it from happening.

Yes. If I did my homework correctly, the pilot code is the last remaining milestone to allow for full usage of the DirectInput controllers (I think a max of 128 or 256 buttons, and a max of 6 or 9 axes). The SDL code a little further down the road should allow for multiple controllers/joysticks and also allow for even more buttons and axes.

Now I just can't wait to see what sort of Frankenstick Nuke will cobble together to take advantage of those limits. :D

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
yea i just got a new grip from an old late 90s saitek which will be installed in the joystick of doom (tm). i was also looking to populate the panel with arcade buttons and toggle switches and i want to add a dual throttle as well. the interface boards support i think 8 12-bit axes and a 6x6 button matrix (36 buttons). but im currently going through a number of usb firmware tutorials and i think i can make better interfaces down the line (16 bit adcs, and an 8x8 button matrix, though i may just use i2c port expanders to simplify wiring). till then i will just have to settle for my 9 axes, 8 hat switches and 8 buttons on my ch fighterstick/throttle/pedals. input upgrades have been a thing ive wanted ever since the code was released.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 07:58:58 am by Nuke »
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Offline iVoid

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
I always disable motion blur in games if possible. It annoys the hell out of me.
Well, to reproduce star streaks the motion blur would be applied only to the background, right? It wouldn't affect the ability to understand what is going on and spot ships, in fact it would give the player one more visual clue to their velocity, increasing awareness. The feeling of speed in the game would be enhanced, increasing immersion and diminishing the feeling of being in the middle of the emptiness going nowhere.

It would be pretty cool if we got this feature back... Perhaps with even a bit more intensity than retail. That is if it did apply to the background only of course. Would this be possible?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
Well, to reproduce star streaks the motion blur would be applied only to the background, right? It wouldn't affect the ability to understand what is going on and spot ships, in fact it would give the player one more visual clue to their velocity, increasing awareness. The feeling of speed in the game would be enhanced, increasing immersion and diminishing the feeling of being in the middle of the emptiness going nowhere.

It would be pretty cool if we got this feature back... Perhaps with even a bit more intensity than retail. That is if it did apply to the background only of course. Would this be possible?


Part of the problems with post processing currently is that there's no way to exclude some parts of the graphics from the post-processing treatment.

It's a problem because what makes ships, weapons, explosions, light sources and local stuff in general look heart-wrenchingly good, often completely ruins the beautifully rendered backgrounds by changing the contrast or adding excessive amount of bloom to planets; for example many Blue Planet skyboxes don't actually look much like I intended them to look like as long as you're using the default post-processing values. Decreasing the Bloom value to zero or very low helps a lot in this case.

The reason I brought this up is that the same thing that would solve the background post-processing issue, would also potentially make background-only motion blurring possible:

The solution would be to use Render Layers, and apply different post processing on different layers - for example, only apply motion blur to Background layer and other PP effects to Foreground layer - but I have absolutely no idea how feasible that would be, or what wizardry would be required to make that work...
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Offline The E

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
It would make the post pipeline rather complex.

Right now, we do this:
1. Render background
2. Render models and effects
3. Render cockpits
4. Do post processing
5. Render HUD

To exclude the skybox we would have to do this:
1. Render background into separate frame buffer
2. Render Models, Effects
3. Render Cockpit model
4. Do post processing on the model/effect buffer
5. Do post processing on the skybox buffer
6. Merge skybox and model buffer
7. Do full-screen post-processing (for effects such as desaturation or film grain)
8. Render HUD

It's possible, but it would add several fullscreen passes and increase video memory usage by a lot.
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Offline iVoid

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
I seem to remember some posts that claimed that FSO doesn't use much GPU horsepower, so I guess the questions now are:
1) Would that increase in video memory usage be enough to slow down the game in modern PC's?
2) Will the benefits of having many post-processing layers (not just for star streaks) make the game prettier enough to be worth implementing this?
3) Could this feature be able to be disabled for those with weaker GPUs?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
GPU use can be roughly divided in two sections that define the performance:

1. VRAM usage

2. Graphics processor usage


VRAM is something that doesn't really depend on how complex the graphics are. It just depends on how many textures are used, what size they are, and what quality they are. With DDS files, the filesize of the textures directly correlates with VRAM usage.

Because majority of assets these days use quite high-resolution textures - and there are a lot of them - it's fairly safe to say that FS2_Open usually uses quite a bit of VRAM, but this depends entirely on what assets are being used.

VRAM usage correlates with performance as soon as it goes over the total amount of VRAM that the graphics card has. At that point, the card will need to start shuffling textures in and out from the video memory to render all the textures, and it has to do this every frame. This increases the time it takes for the GPU to fully draw the frame it's working on.

If the frame drawing time exceeds the target frame rate's frametime (1/60th second for 60 FPS, etc.), then performance is affected.


Graphics processor usage wise, FSO didn't use much of the potential, until the rendering was changed from fixed render pipeline to shader-based. This basically unlocked a lot of unused potential, and things like normal mapping and other shader magicks became possible.

Of course, the shader based stuff started taxing the GPU's processing power, and more and more stuff has been added relatively recently. Shadows, crepuscular rays, all post-processing filters such as FXAA, bloom, film grain, hue/saturation/value, brightness/contrast filters... all these sort of accumulate together and the result is that at present, FS2_Open very much takes advantage of modern GPU's processing power via shaders.

If reasonably modern GPU's can support reasonable performance with real-time compositing on post-processing, then I think it would very much be worth it. But that would need to be determined by testing. The good thing is that this addition would be unlikely to cause variable performance loss based on what's actually happening on the screen; the defining factor would likely be simply screen resolution.

And yes, it would likely be possible to turn off with a command line option. Almost all graphics features are customizable in that sense, as far as I know.
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Offline The E

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
The thing about post processing stages is that they're relatively hard on the memory bandwidth available. If your video RAM is slow, then a post stage will have an enormous effect as reading and writing textures will take longer than expected.
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Offline Fury

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
How do commercial game engines handle similar situations?

 

Offline The E

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
By not caring.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Valathil

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
I remember fixing the beam whack bug. How nostalgic
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
Pretty sure it was me who fixed the beam whack bug.

 

Offline iVoid

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
By not caring.
So commercial games don't do layered post-processing? How cool it would be if FSO had a graphic feature no other game has?

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
By not caring.
So commercial games don't do layered post-processing? How cool it would be if FSO had a graphic feature no other game has?

Very very cool!! So when are you going to implement this, iVoid? Can't wait!

 

Offline The E

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Re: What happened to these cool features from retail?
By not caring.
So commercial games don't do layered post-processing? How cool it would be if FSO had a graphic feature no other game has?

I did not say that. It's just that commercial game developers have a degree of control over what happens at any given moment in the game that we do not have. They can budget their performance for all these things, we however cannot; As such, keeping things simple and robust is the best way for us to operate.

Right now, our post-processing pipeline is a five pass setup already (FXAA prepass, FXAA pass, bloom downsample pass, lightshaft pass, postprocessing pass), this would add another composite and post pass to this setup (This could feasibly be done in a single run, but I am not sure about that).
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns