Author Topic: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?  (Read 26564 times)

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
The problem is that the enemy will be locked on to YOUR ship. If you drop a decoy that's as fast as your ship but much lighter, then its thrusters will be far too dim. If you drop a decoy whose thrusters are the same brightness but it's much lighter, it will be moving too fast to fool the scanner. Therefore, you need a decoy that's the same mass as your ship. This is not practical.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
FS2 sensors are complete **** compared to modern-day sensors. A ship with modern detection arrays could detect a manned starship of any size ANYWHERE in the solar system because it would be lit up like the Fourth of July on thermal imaging. The proper temperature scale for use in space is Kelvin, where 0 is absoute zero. Space is around 2-3 Kelvins. A manned starship would be 290 kelvins in the manned sections and 400+ in the powerplant.

I call bull****.

It's only within the last twenty years we've even been able to pick out infrared targets on Earth's surface from orbit. Yes, we can detect remarkably dim infrared sources now...with purpose-built satellites using extremely expensive cryogenic cooling systems that, by the way, are not at all suited to a combat craft. They also take extremely long exposure times to resolve such an image of something that is for all intents and purposes not moving at all. This also assumes that ships have no shielding of any sort to reduce their infrared signature, which is ludicrious.

You're missing Mustang's point, perhaps willfully. Thrusters are not the only source of IR energy. Flares yes? It would be a relatively simple matter for the technology involved to duplicate the IR image of ship.

However from another standpoint this does not appear to be how FS decoys work at all. Rather they appear to break missile lock simply by emitting as much IR/RF energy as possible, washing out everything else so that a missile cannot resolve any other targets.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Thank you, ngtm1r.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Soo basicly what the guy said was ...wrong. So then besides costs involved what is to stop the GTVA from making some sort of stealth warship or bommbers or fighters?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
FS2 sensors are complete **** compared to modern-day sensors. A ship with modern detection arrays could detect a manned starship of any size ANYWHERE in the solar system because it would be lit up like the Fourth of July on thermal imaging. The proper temperature scale for use in space is Kelvin, where 0 is absoute zero. Space is around 2-3 Kelvins. A manned starship would be 290 kelvins in the manned sections and 400+ in the powerplant.

I call bull****.

It's only within the last twenty years we've even been able to pick out infrared targets on Earth's surface from orbit. Yes, we can detect remarkably dim infrared sources now...with purpose-built satellites using extremely expensive cryogenic cooling systems that, by the way, are not at all suited to a combat craft. They also take extremely long exposure times to resolve such an image of something that is for all intents and purposes not moving at all. This also assumes that ships have no shielding of any sort to reduce their infrared signature, which is ludicrious.
The problem is that picking out a 300k person on a 280k Earth is a hell of a lot more difficult than picking out a 290k ship against ~2k  space (I'm using Kelvins instead of Fahrenheit or Celsius because it is more relevant to space). Earth is a huge infrared source. Even with infrared shielding, space is so cold and so dark that you will stand out against it.

Perhaps IR sensors are complex and fragile now, but this will probably not be the case in the future. The first computers were the size of large rooms  and were full of thousands of extremely delicate vacuum tubes. Today, Pentium III-equivalent chips are being made that can withstand enough radiation to instantly kill a human being and Panasonic builds "ToughBooks" which can withstand violent physical impacts and still run. You share one of Trashman's erroneous assumptions--the assumption that technology will be just like it is now. Furthermore, these telescopes (and that's what they are) are complete overkill for searching for starships. They're meant to look at objects tens of millions of light years away. Much more robust thermal imaging sensors would suffice.

In short: Space is really, really dark. Ships are fairly bright. They're pretty hard to miss.

Quote
You're missing Mustang's point, perhaps willfully. Thrusters are not the only source of IR energy. Flares yes? It would be a relatively simple matter for the technology involved to duplicate the IR image of ship.

However from another standpoint this does not appear to be how FS decoys work at all. Rather they appear to break missile lock simply by emitting as much IR/RF energy as possible, washing out everything else so that a missile cannot resolve any other targets.

You might as well make it a gigantic bomb then. You're not going to create that much IR unless you're dropping nuclear mines out the back of your fighter. Using thermal imaging on Earth is like standing on a floodlight, and we can still resolve people and animals. It's unlikely to fool a missile and it certainly won't fool the ship that launched said missile.

On Earth, you have ambient radiation and heat as well as the  fact that creating a lot of IR will heat up the air and make  the air emit more IR. In space you have neither of these luxuries.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
You share one of Trashman's erroneous assumptions--the assumption that technology will be just like it is now.

WTF?  :wtf:
I make no such assumptions..I'm merely aware of the limitations technology & science has and will have. Some people act like science is magic that can do anything. :rolleyes:
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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
The problem is that the enemy will be locked on to YOUR ship. If you drop a decoy that's as fast as your ship but much lighter, then its thrusters will be far too dim. If you drop a decoy whose thrusters are the same brightness but it's much lighter, it will be moving too fast to fool the scanner. Therefore, you need a decoy that's the same mass as your ship. This is not practical.


You will be storing your heat and only emitting every once and a while. You can drop the decoy anytime, anywhere. The idea is not to break lock or something, but to make the enemy skeptical of his sensors when all these random contacts pop up.

The decoy will be moving as fast as your own ship when you release it. Give it a bit of a boost, if you really have to make its speed match yours.

Quote
You're not going to create that much IR unless you're dropping nuclear mines out the back of your fighter

Store your heat, and then load it into your decoys.

 
Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Soo basicly what the guy said was ...wrong. So then besides costs involved what is to stop the GTVA from making some sort of stealth warship or bommbers or fighters?

Think about it..... How the hell can you miss a giant 2km Destroyer? Besides, it appears stealth technology involves making holes in the craft. I mean, look at the Pegasus. There is a reason why it looks so weird.

 

Offline Hades

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Soo basicly what the guy said was ...wrong. So then besides costs involved what is to stop the GTVA from making some sort of stealth warship or bommbers or fighters?

Would you stop saying the same thing over and over.You have said this 3 or 4 times already. :blah:
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
The problem is that the enemy will be locked on to YOUR ship. If you drop a decoy that's as fast as your ship but much lighter, then its thrusters will be far too dim. If you drop a decoy whose thrusters are the same brightness but it's much lighter, it will be moving too fast to fool the scanner. Therefore, you need a decoy that's the same mass as your ship. This is not practical.


You will be storing your heat and only emitting every once and a while. You can drop the decoy anytime, anywhere. The idea is not to break lock or something, but to make the enemy skeptical of his sensors when all these random contacts pop up.

The decoy will be moving as fast as your own ship when you release it. Give it a bit of a boost, if you really have to make its speed match yours.

Quote
You're not going to create that much IR unless you're dropping nuclear mines out the back of your fighter

Store your heat, and then load it into your decoys.

You can't "store heat". Heat is the kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules making up a structure. Storing heat makes something hot. Something that's hot gives off lots of infrared. Something that gives off lots of infrared announces its location to everyone within a couple of light years. Any object that has heat energy will give off electromagnetic radiation, but energy is driven by the second law of thermodynamics (entropy always increases) to dissipate, and the only method of dissipation in space is radiation.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 12:08:11 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
What about a heat sink? How do IR reflective materials work, as often used by the military (IE the "V"-shaped IR tape you've seen on some American and Israeli tanks)?

I don't know much about physics, obviously, but I think there's some way to store large amounts of heat for an extended period of time. Not with current technology, of course.

Heat is radiation, basically, and you have several ways to contain or absorb radiation. Correct?

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
What about a heat sink? How do IR reflective materials work, as often used by the military (IE the "V"-shaped IR tape you've seen on some American and Israeli tanks)?

I don't know much about physics, obviously, but I think there's some way to store large amounts of heat for an extended period of time. Not with current technology, of course.

Heat is radiation, basically, and you have several ways to contain or absorb radiation. Correct?

Not without reradiating it in some other form. Shielding against hard radiation (gamma rays, etc.), will energize the material in the shielding, causing it to give off lower-energy photons (this is why "swimming tank" reactors have a blue glow around them--the radiation energizes the water, causing it to emit photons). Heat sinks are even worse, because their purpose is to vent heat away from them--by convection in an atmosphere, by radiation in space. Heat sinks are like beacons advertising where your ship is.

Do you have a Wikipedia link or some other source for this IR reflective material. Not that reflective material would work, as it would reflect only rays given off from other ships--it would not affect your own heat.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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--General Battuta

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
The problem is that picking out a 300k person on a 280k Earth is a hell of a lot more difficult than picking out a 290k ship against ~2k  space (I'm using Kelvins instead of Fahrenheit or Celsius because it is more relevant to space). Earth is a huge infrared source. Even with infrared shielding, space is so cold and so dark that you will stand out against it.

Not necessarily; for example as of right now we really can't track single people still via infrared from orbit. Even single vehicles is tough, unless they're large vehicles like ships. Similarly at this point in time there exists natural insulation good enough to retain 100% or nearly so of heat generated. Go look at a polar bear in the infrared sometime. They show as ambient temperature except for the nose and eyes. And if they can do it...

Perhaps IR sensors are complex and fragile now, but this will probably not be the case in the future.

There are, perforce, objective realities that militate against; one of them is the cryo requirement, which there is simply no way around. You have to cool it. You have to give it as little insulation as possible so it doesn't retain heat or cooling it gets much more troublesome. This is basic physics at work. Armoring such a system is simply not practical. You also forget that while yes, it may be possible to build it tougher, weaponry in FS is ridiculously powerful to the point where modern tactical nukes are only decent ante.

Even assuming all these things are possible you must then pick out this target from all the other faint infrared sources you'll detect out there. This is no mean task. There will be thousands of such sources, many of which will not be matchable to objects in visible light or existing planets/moons/asteroids, many of which will be transitory or new. A background or at least some grounding in astronomy would do you good. With an exposure time of each image of, say, an hour (down from the several it takes today), anything that has discernable motion in that time will be spread out and lost as it did not emit enough from the same spot to show up.

You share one of Trashman's erroneous assumptions--the assumption that technology will be just like it is now.

This statement will come back to haunt you in a bit.

You might as well make it a gigantic bomb then. You're not going to create that much IR unless you're dropping nuclear mines out the back of your fighter. Using thermal imaging on Earth is like standing on a floodlight, and we can still resolve people and animals. It's unlikely to fool a missile and it certainly won't fool the ship that launched said missile.

Like right about now.

Who said you aren't dumping nuclear mines out of the back of your fighter? But let's be realistic. An unshielded nuclear reactor has a thermal signature to rival the Sun, which was one of the reasons that the ASAT program used infrared seekers for the proposed task of shooting down nuclear-powered Russian satellites. Dumping a short-term unshielded fusion reaction out the rear end of your fighter is entirely feasible and quite within the realm of possiblity.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
And, BTW, one of the ways to break IR lock today is by dumping flares which have about as much heat as your engine (or more!), also, by firing a beam at the missile that fries its thermal imaging, and also, by aiming into the sun, and pulling off at the last moment (although this tactic works less and less with newer missiles.)

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
What the......has ca mouflaging a ship gone completely out the window??? I mean sure it is old fashioned but when you have powerfull jaming or stealth tech available the only thing that would make you a target is well....the ship itself ! So blend in with the backround! Or invent some sort of damned cloaking devices as in Star Trek...altough I do believe i'm gooing over the hills with this last tech.

Yet still stealth does not mean you have to put holes in the shiop...abyone remember the vasudan stealth fighter???


Also Who sais you need dozens and dozens of bommbers when a couple of cruisers armed with Mjolnir cannons can do the job very very fast and efective.
Die shivan die!!
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Offline Snail

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
I agree with AlphaOne.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Not necessarily; for example as of right now we really can't track single people still via infrared from orbit. Even single vehicles is tough, unless they're large vehicles like ships. Similarly at this point in time there exists natural insulation good enough to retain 100% or nearly so of heat generated. Go look at a polar bear in the infrared sometime. They show as ambient temperature except for the nose and eyes. And if they can do it...
STOP MAKING COMPARISONS TO USING IR ON EARTH. Earth is much, much hotter than space, and therefore it is much, much harder to see things. Load up an FS2 mission and try to track targets while staring directly into the center of the sun. With the HDRish smartshader on, or drive while another car's high beams are being reflected into your face. That is what using IR to track people on Earth is like.

Perhaps IR sensors are complex and fragile now, but this will probably not be the case in the future.

Quote
There are, perforce, objective realities that militate against; one of them is the cryo requirement, which there is simply no way around. You have to cool it. You have to give it as little insulation as possible so it doesn't retain heat or cooling it gets much more troublesome. This is basic physics at work. Armoring such a system is simply not practical. You also forget that while yes, it may be possible to build it tougher, weaponry in FS is ridiculously powerful to the point where modern tactical nukes are only decent ante.
Considering the kind of combat we see in FreeSpace, we could easily sacrifice range for durability. Also, creating a material capable of withstanding multi-gigaton direct hits is completely impossible, so magical handwaving materials are already present in FreeSpace!

Quote
Even assuming all these things are possible you must then pick out this target from all the other faint infrared sources you'll detect out there. This is no mean task. There will be thousands of such sources, many of which will not be matchable to objects in visible light or existing planets/moons/asteroids, many of which will be transitory or new. A background or at least some grounding in astronomy would do you good. With an exposure time of each image of, say, an hour (down from the several it takes today), anything that has discernable motion in that time will be spread out and lost as it did not emit enough from the same spot to show up.
It's a wonder how radar operators manage to make out anything with massive radio sources blasting away from all over the world, then (the Earth produces more radio waves than an area of the Sun equivalent to Earth's surface area. That's a lot of radio waves), or radar signals reflecting off the ground, clouds, etc. It's not that difficult to discern a moving target from non-moving space. Furthermore, you're thinking of a telescope, while my idea is a more advanced version of a police thermal imaging camera. But wait, it gets even better! A ship like an Orion-class destroyer is not going to be a faint IR source. To move several billion (yes, billion with a B) tons of starship and power multi-gigaton beam cannons, you need an almost inconceivable amount of energy, This energy is going to result in a similarly incredible amount of heat and radiation in multiple spectra--IR, visible, UV, even X rays! Even in an hour, an Orion won't move very far in astronomical terms, and if the signal does spread out, you're going to get a very bright line along the Orion's course. If the heat of the crew compartment is a beacon, the energy released by its engines will be an enormous flaming arrow pointing down from the sky, visible on UV and X ray detectors as well as on infrared.

An Orion is not a faint signal. It is a huge signal. Woe be to any planet it enters the atmosphere of, considering the amount of energy put out by its drive engines alone.

You might as well make it a gigantic bomb then. You're not going to create that much IR unless you're dropping nuclear mines out the back of your fighter. Using thermal imaging on Earth is like standing on a floodlight, and we can still resolve people and animals. It's unlikely to fool a missile and it certainly won't fool the ship that launched said missile.

I was talking about missiles like the Harpoon, which we have no modern equivalent of. Aspect-seeking missiles lock on by the shape and possibly texture of the target ship's hull. Providing a completely dissimilar decoy will not fool a Harpoon or Trebuchet. Also, a modern aircraft's engine is like a firecracker compared to those of even FreeSpace fighters, which have been shown in command brief animations in FS1 to go from the surface to space in a matter of seconds! Such engines would likely be brighter than a nuclear explosion, and devastate anything that followed a FreeSpace fighter too closely. Try hiding that with a chaff pod (you can't).

Quote
Who said you aren't dumping nuclear mines out of the back of your fighter? But let's be realistic. An unshielded nuclear reactor has a thermal signature to rival the Sun, which was one of the reasons that the ASAT program used infrared seekers for the proposed task of shooting down nuclear-powered Russian satellites. Dumping a short-term unshielded fusion reaction out the rear end of your fighter is entirely feasible and quite within the realm of possiblity.

FreeSpace ships already "dump an unshielded fusion reaction" out their engines, as evidenced by the description of gas miners collecting fuel for "fusion drives". They take plasma out of a fusion reactor's core and spew it out the back--a massive fountain of intensely radioactive plasma blasting out of your ship at obscene velocities. Face it: stealth in space is as much technobabble and hand-waving bull**** as doing loop-the-loops and banked turns in space, humanoid Vasudans, color-changing Subach blob cannon "xasers", and subspace.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 10:10:50 am by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline akenbosch

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
hey, this is the future. you dont know what they can do! before it was invented, the very idea of television was considered impossible....except by the inventor, of course.

Burn the sucker out of the sky!
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Despite what you might belive science HAS limits.. it's not magical.

Lasers act like lasers. Period. Thus, they are in a spectrum mostly invisible to human eye and travel at a speed of light... they're nothing like FS lasers.

Supspace? Theoreticly it like wormhoels...not impossible..
Banking in space? With multiple thrusters and a powerfull nav computer it's possible for a space fighter to behave like that.
Humanoid vasudans? Also not impossible.
Subach changing colors? Maby it's coolin in space or dissolving..also possible.
Making a star go nova prematurely? Sci-fi at it's best :lol: Impossible

Armor capable of withstanding multi-gigaton blasts? Impossible.. Alttough the question is does it withstand a balst at all? Becosue if it did, no capship would get any noticable damage for Cyclops of Harbringer...
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Offline Snail

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Re: Why a destroyer when 100 Ursas can take out a Sathanas?
Lasers aren't lasers. They're supercompressed gas of something.