Author Topic: SH Gargant?  (Read 138609 times)

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The other is that the supernova did something to local subspace, opening some kind of rift that the Saths were able to jump through.  It would seem to fit with the general notion from the final cutscene, where Petrarch speculates that the Shivans needed to destroy the Capellean sun to get home.  Its the general belief among the community that there was more to the triggering of the supernova than a simple weapon of mass, mass, mass destruction.

        I'm a genius.
        I just figured out the Shivans and the ending of Freespace 2.
        But I can't tell you what it is, because I might actually be able to form some sort of ending for my damn campaign now. Even though my campaign will have to take a 180' turn into who knows where it'll lead. But my campaign will probably never be finished. So the secret dies with me. Oh well.

 
Then just prove to us your so-called being a genius and tell us your idea. But I'm sure they can sometimes make jumps without using node if absolutely necessary (at least the big ships can). Why else would Volition even bother to put "Skeptics have argued that the Shivans made intersystem jumps without using node in the great War" comment near the end? Also, they seem to have mastered subspace in everyway, so it isn't far fetched to say the Shivans can do this.

     Jump nodes? I don't care about that. That's trivial information in my opinion.   
     That's like arguing about whether the Shivan's pick up truck is a strictly on-road vehicle or if it has off-road capabilities.

     I'm talking about, what the Shivans did in Freespace 2, why they did it, and how they came to that point in the first place. Shivan history man. Though, the latter point is a little vague in areas. Think I'm going to have to toss my old campaign out the window, though I don't have a clue how I'd integrate this into a new campaign. That's always the dilemma. Will have to think about it.

      EDIT - Well, jump nodes are important. But my answer to you is, no they cannot. But the Capella jump didn't count because it was a different thing entirely.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 12:03:04 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 
Go email Volition and ask them why the Shivans destroyed Capella.

Also, I edited my previous post at the same time you posted and didn't finish editing until after you posted. You can read it again now?

        Hmmn, yeah the supernova ideas are a good one . . . BUT. I see a bigger parallel.

Bosch in the opening monologue, says he misses home.
Bosch joins the Shivans.
Petrarch in the closing monologue says, maybe the shivans went home.

         See a connection?


Also we don't know that the Shivans destroyed the star in the Nebula.
All we know is that the Ancients went there AFTER the Supernova and BEFORE they encountered the Shivans.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 12:22:15 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

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Heh, Max. :)

Ah crap, Akala...

Spoiler:
IS BOSCH A SHIVAN?
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Quote: Tuesday, 3 October 2023 0133 UTC +8, #general
MP-Ryan
Oh you still believe in fairy tales like Santa, the Easter Bunny, and free market competition principles?

 
Also, before the 2nd and 3rd Knossos' were activated by Bosch, does that mean that the Shivans in the nebula were cut off from the Shivans in the systems beyond Knossos 2. I guess not since the first Sathanas appeared well before Bosch activated the 2nd Knossos. Which means that the Shivans can still use the node without any knossos. I find it unlikely that the Shivans were using other points of entry into the nebula besides Knossos 2.

       The GTC Trinity activated the 1st Knossos.
       The Trinity was found floating derelict in the Nebula, no where near the second Knossos.

       Only 1 Knossos was turned off. The other two were still active. The theory I subscribe to is that the Ancients turned off the Knossos to stop the invasion. But it didn't work, in the same way it didn't work for the GTVA. The Lucifer and it's fleet came through and wiped them out. But before the Lucifer returned home, the node destablized at the Knossos and they couldn't go home. They just floated around, for centuries and millenia until they came to fight against the GTVA. So basically, only 1 Knossos was ever deactivated. There's no point in turning off more than one. There's probably no time to turn off more than one.

        Knossos 2 and 3 and whatever lies beyond have been running for thousands of years.

Ah crap, Akala...

Spoiler:
IS BOSCH A SHIVAN?

        Nope, but he sure created a **** storm in their hive.

I don't believe that they blew up the star to open a gateway to their universe since for one, if that was the case, they would have done it a long time ago, and two, they jumped out before the star exploded. So that means they would have left before the destruction of the star could open a gateway to their universe. Also, I'm sure they have blown up many other star systems in the past. Just look at the Nebula beyond Gamma Draconis and the wing leader (Commander Samsa is his name maybe) saying that it was possibly the remnants of a supernova during the breifing when the Alliance first entered the nebula. Then we find out the Shivans caused a supernova at the end in Capella. So it makes perfect sense that the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis had the same fate as Capalla from the Shivans. See, it is all connected.

         I don't think the Shivans are from another universe. You're also assuming things about the process of the jump that aren't founded in fact. What makes the explosion the trigger? Maybe the explosion is the consequence. I mean, what are stars really? Gravity-speaking? I don't know that Einstein thing, but isn't there something about Stars having some underlying gravity stretching throughout the system? Something to do with that time and relativity and all that crazy science I never learned. And aren't nodes found in places of low gravitational influences? So if you destablize the star, doesn't that make the whole area around it, lacking in gravity for that small amount of time, allowing for a jump to who knows where, and then the star takes it's (un)natural conclusion of exploding???

          So, basically, the Shivans destabalize a star, making the entire area around in, suitable for a jump. Those that can jump, then the star explodes. And why didn't the Shivans do this earlier? Well:

A - They didn't have access to Capella
B - Bosch wasn't talking to them.

           Maybe Capella is suitable for the jump, either as a star, or geographically speaking. There's no real information on how subspace works beyond the fact it connects to systems. There's no real workings as to its range, why systems interconnect and so forth. And yeah, the Shivans seem to be good with subspace. But subspace is a road, and when you've driven on that road all your life how can you be anything but good?

 
           And ONE MORE EDIT - I don't think the Shivans of FS2 are the same as the Shivans of FS1. FS1, as a story is a cliche. Unstoppable, senseless enemy with one super ship. It's been done before, it'll be done again. The whole great preservers thing was the one thing was actually unique about it, and in doing so, the great preservers gave both the Vasudans and the Terrans their origins. As in, how they came to be where they are. But I think that the story of the Shivans, while cool, was also just a gimmick at the time. Voliton I doubt, really explored WHO the Shivans are. WHERE they're from and WHAT they're doing. So then came FS2. And we get to see Shivans with other motivations, Shivans that are actually doing more than just kill humans. So I disregard some things from FS1 all together. Like Alpha 1's comment that "shivans can rebuild nodes". Well, no, they can't. Or else, why would the Knossos trigger their arrival? The Trinity opened a door for the Shivans that Alpha 1 claims they can open themselves, therefore, Alpha 1 is wrong because FS2 is newer than FS1 and information in it trumps FS1.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 12:55:37 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Perhaps the Capella star was the only sun capable of generating a massive subspace vortex from its explosion that could fit most of the Shivan armada in.
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Quote: Tuesday, 3 October 2023 0133 UTC +8, #general
MP-Ryan
Oh you still believe in fairy tales like Santa, the Easter Bunny, and free market competition principles?

 
The Lucifer returned home. You are missing key points mentioned in FS2. The node remains stable for centuries after being restablized. Also, The Lucifer fleet came from around Ikeya and Ross 128, not Capella. A point into Shivan space lies in the Ikeya system. Go back and play FS1 and listen to all breifings.

          Did the Lucifer return home? Or did the Lucifer never leave the neighbourhood?
          Yes, the Lucifer came from beyond Ross 128. But after it was defeated, no shivans were seen for 30 years. Why didnt the Shivans keep coming? Thirty Years, no contact. Furthermore, why did the Shivan fleet fall to pieces once the Lucifer was destroyed? If the Shivans are in fact a hive and need some sort of central queen, then the destruction of the Lucifer shouldn't matter because with the Shivan Comm Nodes in FS2, they should still have some sort of contact with the rest of the Shivans. But the thing is, the FS1 Shivans didn't have contact with the rest of the Shivans. All they had to guide them was the Lucifer, and when that went down, they went down with it. Collapsed into a rabble of ships which were rather easily taken care of. If the ships are out of the hive, why not retreat to shivan space and get back in the hive?
         Furthermore, why did the FS2 Shivan fleet have better technology than the FS1 Shivans? The shivans have been in space for thousands of years, yet they progress the same rate as the GTVA? No. They'd be like Angels if that were the case. The Lucifer fleet, is simply thousands of years out of date compare to the FS2 Shivans.

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Also note the bright glowing starts in the background in the final monologue in FS1 of the player speaking. Those might be a few of the suns the Shivans destroyed. Or it could be a star system with about 7 stars. I heard those are possible and systems with only one star are less common than binary systems.

        I doubt the storyline for FS2 was created before FS1 was even released. If it was, why are there so many continuity errors like the node map and so on?

Quote
Bosch wasn't trying to go home. He was trying to form an Alliance with the Shivans to stop the fighting out of fear that the Shivans would wipe humanity out unless an understanding could be formed. When did Bosch say the words "I want to go home"? He wasn't even heading home at all. The promised land means going into Shivan space or where ever they are from, like where he was heading. He was moving further away form Earth, not toward it.

       Bosch saying "I want to go home" is bad writing.
       Bosch saying "I remember stories of a glorious civilisation, of cities with spires that reached the sun, of a blue planet with vast seas, of people with myths of humanity everlasting, of children who saw in the embers of dying stars the destiny of their race" is good writing because he's saying he misses Earth. He longs for it. Clearly he wants to go there. If he didn't why would he care to remember it?

Quote
Also, Shivans don't need Capella to make a supernova. Any star of the same class will do. Why would only one star be suitable when there are 200 billion stars in this galaxy and 200 billion galaxies in the universe? It makes sense that they blew up the Capella star to seal GTVA space off from their space because the Alliance invaded and was pushing deeper. Does that make sense?

        Yeah I've heard the Shivans scared of humanity theory before. I don't buy it.
        Fear and paranoia are two different things.
        The Shivans lost a LOT of forces destroying Capella. From what we see, there are 12 ships, only 8 of them make it out. So assuming, that's a statistical norm. Out of 80 Juggernauts, the Shivans lost 25. They lost 25 Juggernauts to seal themselves off from the GTVA? That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER (not yelling, just emphasising).
        25 Juggernauts would WIPE the floor with the GTVA ten times over. Shivans have never retreated, but they've never willingly killed themselves in any engagement. What precedence is there in the game, for Shivan sacrifice? Have Shivans ever rammed? Have Shivans even shielded one-another? No, they just fight, and they die, to the last man(shivan).

        What would motivate them to sacrifice SOOO much? And what effect did Bosch have? Bosch having no effect invalidates his whole existence. The Shivans acted differently in FS2, the only difference that the player knows of is Bosch. Clearly Bosch has stimulated this change in Shivan behavior.


Quote
The Alliance collapsed the Epsilon Pegasi/Capella node for nothing thinking that the Shivans were going to spread through allied space like they did before in the Great War. But the shockwave of the supernova destroyed the nodes connecting Capella to the other systems.

         The Alliance did collapse the nodes for nothing. Because the Shivans weren't trying to exterminate them.
         But there's no evidence that any nodes were destroyed.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 02:18:56 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

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       Bosch saying "I want to go home" is bad writing.
       Bosch saying "I remember stories of a glorious civilisation, of cities with spires that reached the sun, of a blue planet with vast seas, of people with myths of humanity everlasting, of children who saw in the embers of dying stars the destiny of their race" is good writing because he's saying he misses Earth. He longs for it. Clearly he wants to go there. If he didn't why would he care to remember it?

Since when the FS2 intro voice is supposed to be Bosch's one? That's Alpha 1, not Bosch...
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       Bosch saying "I want to go home" is bad writing.
       Bosch saying "I remember stories of a glorious civilisation, of cities with spires that reached the sun, of a blue planet with vast seas, of people with myths of humanity everlasting, of children who saw in the embers of dying stars the destiny of their race" is good writing because he's saying he misses Earth. He longs for it. Clearly he wants to go there. If he didn't why would he care to remember it?

Since when the FS2 intro voice is supposed to be Bosch's one? That's Alpha 1, not Bosch...

      Hmmn, well Bosch's voice seems a bit creakier.
      But, I don't know how you figure it's Alpha 1. The end of the monologue talks about forging a new alliance. That's Aken Bosch's whole mission throughout FS2. If it's not Aken Bosch's voice actor, it's someone else supposed to be him I would venture. And why would Alpha 1 be given a voice at the start and then never again throughout the whole game? That makes no sense.

 
If you read the back of the FS2 box, it will say the Lucifer force was a scouting force. They thought it was sufficient to destroy the Alliance, but underestimated them. Then it says after 30 years of no contact with the Lucifer fleet, the main Shivan fleet got worried, or something. Smaller Shivans ships and lesser Shivans may have been controlled by the Lucifer and the Lucifer may be the only one who has the authority, know how, or strong enough equipment to communicate with the main Shivan fleet and comm nodes may be a few systems beyond Ross128 (out of comm range of smaller Shivan craft).

       The back of the box is a marketing gimmick. I'd be surprised if anyone in the development team even had a hand in writing that.
 
Quote
That was a narrator, not Bosch. I never once thought it was Bosch. Where did you get that idea from? I never once heard that ever mentioned even on this forum.

        As I said to Mobius. The guy says "now we forge a new alliance, to guard the tomb of space, and to find within its cold expanse the destiny of our race". Bosch's motivation is to forge a new alliance with the shivans, he believes their destiny lives with the shivans not the vasudans. Everything about that opening narration conforms to Bosch's motives.


Quote
I didnt say they were cowering. I heard that story of them cowering in the Shivan Manifesto too and I don't buy it either and I know they wouldn't cower. I said maybe Bosch was cowering and he requested that the Shivans destroy the star to collapse the nodes so the Alliance couldn't folllow or maybe the Shivans did it to give them an advantage of invasion in the future without the Alliance being able to follow them back to Shivan space since Shivans can travel through unstable nodes but the GTVA can't.

     Bosch wants the Shivans to ally with humanity. Why would he order them to seal off Capella, if anything, Bosch wants the Shivans to embrace humanity. Not destroy it. Not cut itself off from it. The Shivans are following their own motives, because of what Bosch has said. One little punk, that they barely know, is not going to tell them what to do. And it's certainly not going to get them to lose 25 super capital ships for no real reason. BUT, one little punk, can give them ideas of their own.


Quote
The Shivans would have gone home long before if that was what they were trying to do, but they are not stranded from home and that clearly isn't their motive. Their motive is to protect subspace, which may be their true home, and to wipe out any species who has the ability to use subspace. Their tech is too advanced to ever be stranded. If the Ancients can build a knossos, then the Shivans can do so much more and incorperate that tech into their ships. The command breifing in FS2 even says that Shivans can use nodes too unstable for Terran and Vasudan vessels.

      Yet petrach calls them exiles in his monologue at the end.
      Protect subspace? Hmmn . . . . well. Just considering my campaign idea I think it's not feasible. So I'll write up my theory and post it in the General discussion forum in a few days or whenever I get a done. You can rip it apart there. But, better than doing it piecemeal here.

  
He is talking about the GTVA being a new alliance from the old GTA and PVN. You are being silly. It shows a bunch of GTVA vessels as it says that. I'm like thinking, "what the hell"? You came up with some pretty weird interpretations. If you have the Shivans as your allies, what would your alliance be guarding the tomb of space from? Don't you see? They mean guard the tomb of space from the Shivans. You see a ruined Orion and a dead planet caused by the Shivans and then it says that.

       That's the obvious explanation, but how would you explain the "of children who saw in the embers of dying stars, the destiny of their race". The only dying stars in FS2 are directly or indirectly attributed to the Shivans.

       Well, I'm probably wrong about that anyway. But, it's really a minor point and not particularly relevant to everything else.

 

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      Hmmn, well Bosch's voice seems a bit creakier.
      But, I don't know how you figure it's Alpha 1. The end of the monologue talks about forging a new alliance. That's Aken Bosch's whole mission throughout FS2. If it's not Aken Bosch's voice actor, it's someone else supposed to be him I would venture. And why would Alpha 1 be given a voice at the start and then never again throughout the whole game? That makes no sense.

"The older call us the Lost Generation"

The whole intro is pretty personal. We guess it's Alpha 1 the one who's talking. In Endgame(FS1) the one who talk is also supposed to be the player. :)
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Offline Aardwolf

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Args...

Eons ago I posted a thread in which I observed that the narration of the introduction was basically foreshadowing everything that would happen in the game, and that the only one who would reasonably know all of that would have to be Bosch. There was discussion about the voice not matching, and yeah, it's a different voice actor.

Carry on.

 
The FS series definitely drew inspiration from Wing Commander (or so I've heard, since I haven't played any of that series myself), as well as the old Star Wars sims (which I sadly haven't played either).  The general consensus I can gather from the reviews of the day is that FS (and in particular, FS2) didn't innovate so much as gather the best elements of the genre into one game and polish them very well.

TIE Fighter was the best space combat simulator ever until Freespace and FS2 came out.

I still think it's great in fact.
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The whole intro is pretty personal. We guess it's Alpha 1 the one who's talking. In Endgame(FS1) the one who talk is also supposed to be the player. :)[/i][/color]

         Yeah but how does that fit in with anything? Alpha 1 is never given a voice anywhere else. Why have him voice over the intro and never say a peep later on. It doesn't make sense to have him. At the start of the game, Alpha 1 is just a recruit. You think a recruit is going to be talking like that? I doubt it.

          If a person's trying to tell one, continuous story, you don't have random people come in and do their thing and never get heard from again. That's a waste. If Alpha 1 voiced over the end (where he lives) then yeah, that would work. But he doesn't, it's Petrach instead.

 

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Args...

Eons ago I posted a thread in which I observed that the narration of the introduction was basically foreshadowing everything that would happen in the game, and that the only one who would reasonably know all of that would have to be Bosch. There was discussion about the voice not matching, and yeah, it's a different voice actor.

Carry on.

You need more than that to backup such an assumption, IMO. I don't see why it's Bosch the one talking in FS2 Intro. I don't get Bosch's prophecies about the game's plot in the intro, either.

So I guess Bosch is the one describing the Colossus in Colossus.mve, too? :P
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Besides, Bosch is too old to be part of the Lost Generation, isn't he?
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Another good point.
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A mustache doesn't necessarily provide reliable info regarding someone's age... :rolleyes:
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Offline Aardwolf

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Ok, I'm too lazy to argue this now, so I'm finding the thread where I said it, and you all can read what I said there and all the dumb comments that fail to prove anything other than that the voice actor is someone else.



http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,49566.0.html