Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: jr2 on June 16, 2007, 03:30:44 am
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Trying to escape the impending Big Rip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_rip) by escaping to another dimension / universe. :eek2: :nervous: The Dark Energy is having a spike that we don't know about, or somesuch... ? Ideas? This, however, doesn't explain their FS1 behaviour... :confused:
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i belive that the shivans of fs 1 might have been a diffrent faction then the ones in 2 so they might had diffrent behaviors
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Hm, right... but I was referring to the Big Rip, mainly... would this fit the "bigger problem" that :v: had in mind?
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I've postulated before that the freighters killed in "Their Finest Hour" had something aboard (fuel, parts, people who knew how to work the damn thing) that if employed would have kept the supernova from happening; the Shivans had to go with backups...and whoops...
I've also postulated that the FS1 Shivans and FS2 Shivans may not even be the same actual race; the mechanical components stay the same but the biological changes.
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Drunk BBQ party went wrong....
"Dude, you pooring rocket fuel on the grill?"
"Yeah..it's gonna be awensome...ooooo! *puke*"
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I've postulated before that the freighters killed in "Their Finest Hour" had something aboard (fuel, parts, people who knew how to work the damn thing) that if employed would have kept the supernova from happening; the Shivans had to go with backups...and whoops...
If they had any importance, surely they would have defended them with a spare juggernaut or at least a few fighters.
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It also explains how they have 80+ juggernauts and not a single lucy..
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I think Trashman was sorta right, alcohol as involved in some way...
Sorta like you go on a long distance drive (say 4-5 states away, but with jump nodes)
In fact, if we had ETAK the scenario might have gone something like this...
(The Capella Conundrum)
Shivan 2: "Dude! Pull over, I gotta take a piss."
Carl: "No way dude, we're going all the way through."
Shivan2: "DUDE!!!"
Carl: "(mumbles). Alright, but make it quick."
Shivan2: "Ahh that's better. Dude! Like look at this sun. I bet I can hit it from here."
Carl: "Don't do it dude, we're gonna get in trouble."
Shivan2: "I'm doing it dude, watch! [Charges sun destroying subspace weapon] - <Boom!>
DUDE RUN!!!"
Carl: "(Screeee!/Untranslatable)" As he hits the jump dives.
[Please note this is an undocumented recreation... No Shivans (or Carl) have been formally charged...]
[Edit]: However, this theory would also lend wieght to the recent Starborn(tm) play entitled: Dude, where's my Sun?
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I think that the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 were the same , but the Shivans in FS1 had a different role . In my opinion they were pathfinders or something , that made place for the Juggernauts to come in and do their job . And since the Ancients were destroyed by these "pathfinders" , there was no need to send in the Juggernaut fleet . About FS2 Shivans - they may have destroyed the Capella star just to go home . Or probably just to get to that "bigger problem" . Who knows .
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or maybe they are both the same shivans, but just switched tactics in the 2 games?
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Here is an interesting scene what if the Lucifer was some sort of flagship for the shivans in FS1 ! They could of been what was left of a fleet as powerfull as the jugg fleet maibe they got exiled from home or banished for destroyeing someone they did not have to like lets say...ooo....the ancients. I mean we see them taking out the Vasudan homeworld but we all know billions of them were still alive on other planets and such. The same thing was trined with the terrans but in the end the terrans saved sor of they homeworld. What if the anihilation (presumed anihilation) of the ancients was not suposed to take place. What if all they neded to do was bash the ancients so hard that they would of eventualy lear they leasson and stop bashing other races themselfs?
The shivans from FS2 could of been another fleet dispatched from they home core sistems of whatever to take a look aroun the "country" and see if there are ani more criminals (read: ancients or GTVA) bashing on other races younger races. Although the Vasudans and the terrans cold be consider still on the drawing board so to speak when compared to the shivans or the Ancients.
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Remember that the Shivan-Ancient war lasted for a long time... it would be likely that the Ancients were being abusive for thousands of years. After the Ancients, there were sweeps around the Galaxy every hundred years. If a space-faring civilization was found, they return every thirty years. If there becomes violence, they intervene and punish.
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Could be that the shivans were just a rip off of the Shadows - evolution through conflict. The strong survive, the weak perish. FS2 came out just as B5 was getting close to ending, and I doubt someone writing a military Sci-Fi game had never seen it - the influence would inevitably be a strong one, even if ti was also a subconscious one.
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BURLYWOOD, eh? XD
But that thought seems a bit too simple... What's the "bigger problem", then?
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or maybe they are both the same shivans, but just switched tactics in the 2 games?
in other words, if at first you dont succede, blow up the local star
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the shivans figure if glassing a planet doesn't work then they my as well nuke an entire system :drevil:
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the shivans figure if glassing a planet doesn't work then they my as well nuke an entire system :drevil:
And loose maybe 25% of their entire fleet in the process? :rolleyes:
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Joshua thinks this theory might be right.
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the shivans figure if glassing a planet doesn't work then they my as well nuke an entire system :drevil:
And loose maybe 25% of their entire fleet in the process? :rolleyes:
Or more...hard to tell from that ani how many died...
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they were blowing up capella because you touch yourself at night! j/k
they were blowing up capella to make you ask questions like this :D
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Or more...hard to tell from that ani how many died...
More or less. Quite a few however, I'd say.
It looks pretty obvious to me that the Shivans did not nuke Capella to do damage. They most likely nuked it to either intimidate the GTVA (likely, but not that much so) or for some other strange purpose (more likely).
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maybe to cut us of from their space so they don't have to be annoyed by us?
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Didn't we do that? (Bastion, Neried)
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Didn't we do that? (Bastion, Neried)
The Shivans knew we had studied the Knossos and could probably reopen the nodes. Command knew that sealing the nodes was at best a temporary measure but they hoped to hold the Shivans as long as it would take them to build a Knossos in Capella.
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More likely they tried to seal off the GTVA for some other reason. Since even if lets say they got scared when they saw the Colossus and believe some 80 thers were waiting for them they sure ass hell would not back down from a fight. More likeli they sealed off the GTVA for a short time in order to somehow, in a twisted sort of way, protect the terrans and vasudans. From what? I
t's anyones guess.
But since the shivans are called the destroyers and preservers perhaps there is some otehr race out there who are called just the destroyers period. Maybe it was they way of asuring that life caries on in this corner of the galaxy. And lets face it since we do not know as much about subspace nodes like the shivans it could be that the GTVA wont come across the shivans again for decades.
By the time the GTVA emerges from its artificial shel so to speack it will be a lot more powerfull and i mean a lot! not even the mighty GTVA in its glory years would hold a candle compared to what the future promises.
I mean think about it this way...they are sure to build some sort of knossos to open up the node to SOL which we all know was the core of the terran war machine. with added raw materials and new economy the future looks bright.
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What happens if another Neo-Terran Front emerges? I mean, the people from Sol might be prejudice against the Vasudans and that might lead to another renegade Terran faction. Or maybe the people from Sol won't accept the GTVA as its government but instead, invades GTVA space in an attempt to bring back the old GTA.
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What happens if another Neo-Terran Front emerges? I mean, the people from Sol might be prejudice against the Vasudans and that might lead to another renegade Terran faction. Or maybe the people from Sol won't accept the GTVA as its government but instead, invades GTVA space in an attempt to bring back the old GTA.
Yes its called Inferno. :nod:
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What happens if another Neo-Terran Front emerges? I mean, the people from Sol might be prejudice against the Vasudans and that might lead to another renegade Terran faction. Or maybe the people from Sol won't accept the GTVA as its government but instead, invades GTVA space in an attempt to bring back the old GTA.
which is a bull**** theory IMHO..
"We're sealed off from the rest of the glorious empire! After 40 yaers our bretheren have repaired the node! (that acomplishment has to to make a impact) Let's declare war on them..Yeeee!"
Earth is a ecomical and industrial powerhouse - no doubt about it. No colony can ever be as develped as the homeworld (that why any mars/venus/any sol colony rebbelion against Earth souds like crap. It's like some babana republic declaring war against the US with nothinsg stopping the US from pulverizing it)
BUT - a dozen of colonies + vasudans would overwhelm Earth alone. Not to say that it wouldn't put up a good fight, but such prospect is doomed to faliure, so why would anyone indorse it? Why would people from Earth want war?
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prey the woo doesn't have your arse on a plate after this thread is finished :P
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Earth is a ecomical and industrial powerhouse - no doubt about it. No colony can ever be as develped as the homeworld.
Well, unless some catastrophe happened, like pieces of the Lucifer hitting Earth and destroying most of its manufacturing capabilities.
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they could of destroyed the peices with their warships, maybe. But the chances of the debris hitting earth, let alone causing that much damage is very, very, low - unless the sol --> delta serpentis node is relatively close to earth, but even then it seems a little unlikely.
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Look the shivans came to capella looking for Burger King but when they found out that they where out of onion rings they got pissed and blew up the whole Sun
"Bevare of shivans they are cranky when they are hungry" - Old saying from the nebula
/Dice
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Shivan Fleet - I'd like 750,000 onion rings please!
Checkout chick - I'm sorry sir we don't have that many.
Shivan Fleet - WHAT?! thats it I'm causing a supernova.
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Didn't we do that? (Bastion, Neried)
The Shivans knew we had studied the Knossos and could probably reopen the nodes. Command knew that sealing the nodes was at best a temporary measure but they hoped to hold the Shivans as long as it would take them to build a Knossos in Capella.
No they didnt. When Dr Hargrove was studying the Knossos, Gamma Draconis was secure at that time and there was no way the shivan presence. All they knew is that we had secured the Gamma Draconis side of the Knossos portal. Ofcourse they might've assumed we'd study it anyway, just as we studied Altair and defeated the Lucifer.
My theory is that they need nebulae to survive, so they go around with this Sathanas fleet, blowing up star systems to create nebulas.
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More likely they tried to seal off the GTVA for some other reason. Since even if lets say they got scared when they saw the Colossus and believe some 80 thers were waiting for them they sure ass hell would not back down from a fight. More likeli they sealed off the GTVA for a short time in order to somehow, in a twisted sort of way, protect the terrans and vasudans.
Thing is, they didn'tcut us off. They nuked the star. The nodes are still there, we can still enter Capella (well actually we can't for the next few centuries since it's way too hot there). We were the ones who nuked the nodes, not the Shivans.
What happens if another Neo-Terran Front emerges? I mean, the people from Sol might be prejudice against the Vasudans and that might lead to another renegade Terran faction. Or maybe the people from Sol won't accept the GTVA as its government but instead, invades GTVA space in an attempt to bring back the old GTA.
which is a bull**** theory IMHO..
Okay, let's put it this way. You've fought a forty year war against yourself with no outside communication. Thousands of people have died in the Sol civil war. The GTVA come prancing in all happy and wonderful and then you make peace with them. 10,000 lives go down the drain for no reason whatsoever. Thing is, would you sacrifice forty years of war and bloodshed to make peace with a foreign government very unfamiliar to you? It depends, the Sol people may or may not. It could go either way.
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Okay, let's put it this way. You've fought a forty year war against yourself with no outside communication. Thousands of people have died in the Sol civil war. The GTVA come prancing in all happy and wonderful and then you make peace with them. 10,000 lives go down the drain for no reason whatsoever. Thing is, would you sacrifice forty years of war and bloodshed to make peace with a foreign government very unfamiliar to you? It depends, the Sol people may or may not. It could go either way.
If it were up to me, yes, i'd make peace with a foreign government that came offering peace, if they agreed to help resolve the civil war.
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Well VC that would be you.Other People thought that the GTVA would take over the Planet.They also must have wanted to take over GTVA too.
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If it were up to me, yes, i'd make peace with a foreign government that came offering peace, if they agreed to help resolve the civil war.
That's another point I hadn't thought about. Who would the GTVA side with if the civil war was still raging?
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Well VC that would be you.Other People thought that the GTVA would take over the Planet.They also must have wanted to take over GTVA too.
Which is suicidal.. the GTVA is a force of combined terrans and vasudans with both their respective technologies combined. Also if faced the second gereration of shivans, leared from them (captured Maras, scahns of Sathanas) and leared how to stablise jump nodes.
The firewpower & fleet numbers would be in the favor of the GTVA. Aside from that Sol WAS part of the Alliance before the node collapsed, so why wouldn't they want to join with their brothers? It's no like it's a comletely different type of regime and ideology in hte GTVA and Sol...
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SOL Has the Icaras.The SOL might have forgotten about the GTVA or thought they were wiped out.Besides In INFA Sol was Dumb enough to Attack GTVA.
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Who would the GTVA side with if the civil war was still raging?
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Neither. They would stop and make a truce...or face the wrath of the GTVA.
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Well sai T Man ! I find it rather hard to believe that they would start a war with the GTVA! Let's nopt forget that during the firts great war the terrans and the vasudans were allies and each side fough battles whre they sacrificed men and ships bo buy the other side more time. Also during the end movie in FS1 were you see the Lucy blows up and all those ships exiting the node I also believe I saw some vasudan ships exiting the node i believe it was 2 cruisers and some fighters.
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Shivans - Galaxy Police
They blew up Capella because they had been trapped in the nebula and it's systems for so long, and they wanted a nice fireworks show celebrating their new found freedom.
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Also during the end movie in FS1 were you see the Lucy blows up and all those ships exiting the node I also believe I saw some vasudan ships exiting the node i believe it was 2 cruisers and some fighters.
No, they were a few Thoths.
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The strange thing is that Petrach theorized about why Capella was destroyed, and perhaps that is the 'Official' end to the plot, resolving that shivans needed to use the small timespan between when they activated those large 'subspace guns' (after converging all their claw-like arms then letting rip with those giant black subspace ball things) , and use this energy to jump through some vortex that the quickly deteriorating capella sun could only provide enough power to do, perhaps to go somewhere. And if they've all gone away, then good riddence to them, since they've effectively gone somewhere and hopefully far away from GTVA space.
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But why the Capella sun? Why couldn't they use a different star? And why are they so aggressive towards everyone?
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They blew up Capella because they had been trapped in the nebula and it's systems for so long, so they decided to blow up a star and create yet another nebula.
Fixed. :D
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But why the Capella sun? Why couldn't they use a different star? And why are they so aggressive towards everyone?
Because I said so! Brawhahaha!!hAhahaha! [evil laughter]
I am the real mastermind behind the Shivans! hahahah!hahahaha! hahahahahahahahaha!
Bow before my greatness!!!!!!
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But why the Capella sun? Why couldn't they use a different star? And why are they so aggressive towards everyone?
Because they find any other race that uses subspace as a threat to them.
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well i like to beilieve that the shivans think the terrans or vasudans (or both?) are remnants of the ancients that somehow survived and prospered after they were nearly annihilated by the shivans.
But ya, the shivans obviously are xenocidal, so that makes sense too.
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No, they were a few Thoths.
How long do vasudans live anyway? Assuming that in 10-20 years afrer Capella the GTVA fixes the jump node to Sol, would the vasudan pilots still be alive? Would they get medals or maby even a high rank for saving Earth?
HMmmmmm..a charachter like that would be highly interesting in a campaign.. *makes a few notes*
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The pilots that destroyed the Lucifer gets promoted to Admirals.
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who would want to sit in a desk for the rest of their careers after all the cool action they've seen?
Oh, right. The ones that want to live :P
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How long do vasudans live anyway? Assuming that in 10-20 years afrer Capella the GTVA fixes the jump node to Sol, would the vasudan pilots still be alive? Would they get medals or maby even a high rank for saving Earth?
They mated with Terrans. Horribly, horribly fascinating children, they were.
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the metis children of Earth :D
But why the Capella sun? Why couldn't they use a different star?
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the system beyond the portal is also a nebula?
And why are they so aggressive towards everyone?
The shivans are xenocidal, meaning they are extremely hostile to other species. Nobody knows why.
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The shivans are xenocidal, meaning they are extremely hostile to other species. Nobody knows why.
DUH - We're coming up with theories as to why that is so here! :P
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just answering the newb's question....
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I've also postulated that the FS1 Shivans and FS2 Shivans may not even be the same actual race; the mechanical components stay the same but the biological changes.
yeah some were dumb like retards in mental hospitals and some were like friggen geeks in control rooms...
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Actualy that theory does hold some water since we have a very distinctive behavior sort of in regards to the shivans form FS1 and those from FS2.
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FS1 Behaivour = Nuke the homeworlds
FS2 Behaivour = Destroy the fleets, clear the Capella star and nuke the Capella star
Would that be a fair judge of their behaivours? Cause I don't recall any heavy Shivan incursions into GTVA space besides pushing them out of the Capella system.
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Well in FS1 the shivans were more interested in taking out the planets and fleets! Virtualy crypeling the GTA/PVN for at least 50 years.
In FS2 they were more interested in guarding the nebula and getting the GTVA out of they way as they moved towards capella!
It is quite a change. If the GTVA would not have put fleets in theyr way who knows maybe they wouldnt of bothered with the fleets at all just nuke capella!
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Here's something else i dont get. How were the shivans able to bend the arms of the Sathanas' ? Were they made of some flexible super-tough metal or were they bent to converge into that spot?
I'm lost for an answer :confused:
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Maybe there are teenie little 'grooves' on the arms?
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it's cause they are shivans. Shivans can do anything!
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Maybe the metal can change in density or something crack like that.
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Their ships could be organic.
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actually i think i remember reading somewhere that some shivan alloys were somewhat organic :nervous:
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actually i think i remember reading somewhere that some shivan alloys were somewhat organic :nervous:
I DEMAND YOUR SAUCE NOW
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actually, it could of been in the tech room for all i know. Hell, it might of even been from derelict.
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...Derelict. The Nyralothep healing itself, plus its self defense mechanism. Not to mention derelict explicitly mentions that Shivan ships are organic.
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Shivans are stupid. Why didn't they send a Sathy to blow up earth? No one could fight the Sathy at that time. It think it would take the entire GTVA just to blow this up. Then the Shivans would sned another one. Same story. Gradually, there would be no fleet to defend the home systems, so shivans just go in and boom. If we had 80+ juggernauts, we would do the same to them. Silly Shivans.
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The Shivans second incursion's objective may not have been to wipe out the Earth, could just have been to use the Capella star to bridge the gap between two galaxies.
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The Shivans second incursion's objective may not have been to wipe out the Earth, could just have been to use the Capella star to bridge the gap between two galaxies.
I mean when in FS1....they could have thought smarter.
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Well, the Sathani may not be built for combat. They may be massive transports for LR subspace travel. Plus, the Shivans probably thought the Lucy would be enough.
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Shivans are stupid. Why didn't they send a Sathy to blow up earth? No one could fight the Sathy at that time. It think it would take the entire GTVA just to blow this up. Then the Shivans would sned another one. Same story. Gradually, there would be no fleet to defend the home systems, so shivans just go in and boom. If we had 80+ juggernauts, we would do the same to them. Silly Shivans.
It's obvious: they weren't available.
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How do you know that?
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Well that's how I see it anyway.
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It is because the Lucifer fleet was the scouting party.In FS2 they may have been using the Capella Star as a Subspace Node to another Galaxy.They may have also did this to go destroy another race.Or to get to the [Spooky music/]Ancients[Spooky music/].
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I have a theory that explains all your questions.
First things first, the Shivans are a hivemind (stereotypical excuse for Shivan single mindedness).
My theory involves a 'cataclysm' which separated the Shivan fleets a long time ago (probably the destruction of several Jump Nodes simultaneously). After the cataclysm, the Shivans decided to nuke all other species because they did not want another cataclysm or something. Fortunately, the Shivans had 'backup hives' which come into motion when a fleet (or fleets) get separated from DaBrain.
The Shivans that came from Ross 128 and attacked the Terrans and Vasudans in FS1 were from a different fleet from the one in FS2. They were probably an expeditionary force which got lost after the disaster that separated the Shivans. Their fleet was very small so they decided that they had to create a sub-hive on board the Lucifer. This is why they needed to shield it and protect it so much. It is to be noted that they are ultimately the exact same Shivans as the Shivans in FS2, they were just separated for a long time.
The Sathanes in FS2 were part of a larger fleet, perhaps one of the biggest Shivan fleets separated from the main one. Because the FS2 Shivans had such a large fleet already, they did not need to shield their capital ships like the Lucifer. The Comm Nodes in the second SOC loop were being used to try to communicate other Shivan fleets far away so the FS2 Shivans could join back up with them. The supernova of Capella was used as the gravitational field for the use of a super-jump node so that the FS2 Shivans could join up with some other Shivan fleet (alternatively it could be used as a beacon so the other Shivan fleets could find it, but it seems a stretch that the Shivans would blow up a star just for a signal).
This does not rule out another species the Shivans are at war with, perhaps those who caused the 'cataclysm' in the first place by using a type of super weapon to weaken the Shivans into individual fleets. Alternatively, and more likely, there could have been a 'spacequake', which is a sort of a freak subspace anomalie that kills nodes or something.
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Nice.......I agree.
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Shivans are stupid. Why didn't they send a Sathy to blow up earth? No one could fight the Sathy at that time. It think it would take the entire GTVA just to blow this up. Then the Shivans would sned another one. Same story. Gradually, there would be no fleet to defend the home systems, so shivans just go in and boom. If we had 80+ juggernauts, we would do the same to them. Silly Shivans.
It's obvious: they weren't available.
Either that, or perhaps... well, perhaps a Sathanas is far too valuable to waste on an invasion. Perhaps the first Sathanas we destroyed was simply the first to arrive. It arrived first, taking advantage of its massive firepower to swat away the Tatenen, which had been threatening defenceless (hah!) Shivan gas miners. When GTVA warships showed up and attempted to destroy it, the Sathanas again capitalised on its advantage and destroyed them, making its way to Capella. When confronted by the Colossus, it had no choice but to fight, perhaps thinking that the Colossus had similar abilities. However, it was destroyed, thanks to Alpha 1. The rest of the Sathanas fleet arrived shortly after one another, not realising how close the Colossus was to defeat or that it was the only one the GTVA had.
Perhaps, the Shivan supernova device was experimental. The Sathanas fleet had never been required to destroy a star before, and the energy caused some of the juggernauts to malfunction, resulting in the death of many Shivans aboard the juggernauts. The other ships, perhaps, had never intended to survive the supernova, only buying time for their comrades.
That, or the supernova was an unintended side-effect. Maybe the intent was to focus the star's energy in such a way as to create a huge subspace node, but never to destroy it. Some of the Shivans realised what was going on and managed to warp in time, but others were either drained by the device's energy requirements, or their warships were too far from the newly-created node to jump.
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If you read MY theory, it says that the Lucy fleet is cut-off from the Sath fleet.
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I still don't get why the only ship with beam cannons in FS1 was the Lucifer, not even the Demon had them. But in FS2 ALL shivan ships had them.
What gives?
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I have been thinking about that too.I mean come on they have been around for thousands of years.Im guessing :v: didnt care about that loophole.
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My theory also answers this question.
The Sathanas fleet had been separated from the FS1 fleet, and hence had developed differently. Their ships developed in the FS2 style (spikey w/ beams) while the older FS1 fleet developed in the FS1 style. They still kept some old ships like the Cain and Lilith so those ship classes were shared between the two fleets.
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i think that like any other species the shivans were not perfect at the time of FS1 so they were also advancing in technology, and the lucifer was the first prototype ship to have beam cannons, and also fully shielded for the kicker.
I'm actually very surprised all the shivan capital ships don't have shields if the Lucifer did. Despite the unbalancing game play it would cause.
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but the ancients were destroyed by shivan beam fire IIRC...so the Lucy couldn't be a prototype....think the cover of FS2 sez something about a "scouting fleet"
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but the ancients were destroyed by shivan beam fire IIRC...
huh?
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"scouting fleet"
Thats what i said. :mad2: its on last page.
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but the ancients were destroyed by shivan beam fire IIRC...
huh?
When you rescue those vasudan scientists in FS1 they say that "it's evident that the ruins were destroyed by shivan weapons"
And I doubt shivan turret lasers are good for orbital bombardment...
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that still doesn't explain how the Lucifer was the only ship to possess beam weapons in FS1
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but the ancients were destroyed by shivan beam fire IIRC...
huh?
When you rescue those vasudan scientists in FS1 they say that "it's evident that the ruins were destroyed by shivan weapons"
And I doubt shivan turret lasers are good for orbital bombardment...
The lazer would not do much and also they would hit the planet after five years. :lol:
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that still doesn't explain how the Lucifer was the only ship to possess beam weapons in FS1
My theory explains it:
As the only hive in contact with the FS1 Shivans, it needed the extra protection (Shield Systems) and had the most advanced weaponry for defense.
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They can build 80+ saths in little over 30 years but can only sheild one destroyer?
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:D
If you were paying attention, they DIDN'T build 80+ Saths. That was a different fleet. The Lucy Fleet was cut off and very much isolated. A tiny taskforce that got lost. A bird. A bird who never learned to fly.
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thats cannon info?
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no.
it's MY THEORY.
idiot. :P
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idiot. :P
#3.
Well you treat it like it was canon...
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It's a theory.
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:D
If you were paying attention, they DIDN'T build 80+ Saths. That was a different fleet. The Lucy Fleet was cut off and very much isolated. A tiny taskforce that got lost. A bird. A bird who never learned to fly.
Geez, only a scouting party nearly destroyed the whole of GTVA. Damn, we are real weak...
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:D
If you were paying attention, they DIDN'T build 80+ Saths. That was a different fleet. The Lucy Fleet was cut off and very much isolated. A tiny taskforce that got lost. A bird. A bird who never learned to fly.
Geez, only a scouting party nearly destroyed the whole of GTVA. Damn, we are real weak...
Nope. Command just sucks.
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You couldn't really blame him, we didn't have the technology. But it is shocking that it was only a scouting party. I hope the Sathis are not just another scouting party.
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You couldn't really blame him, we didn't have the technology. But it is shocking that it was only a scouting party. I hope the Sathis are not just another scouting party.
No way a scouting party would blow up a star and subspace immediately.
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They went home to make a report.... ;7
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Well, maybe the second Shivan fleet was just an investigation team. They went to check up on the scouting team and then jumped back to call in the real fleet.
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Well, maybe the second Shivan fleet was just an investigation team. They went to check up on the scouting team and then jumped back to call in the real fleet.
The...
'real fleet'? :eek:
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Ya, the one with the gargant in it ;7
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Well the Gargant's not all that great, you know. It only has ONE forward weapon. I think it needs to be returreted to have beams on the frontal spikes. ;7
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It still kicks ass. :lol: Just send a destroyer with Mesons in it at the Gargant. ;7
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The Gargant's armor is unbelievable. The only way it's actually possible for the Gargant to have that much shielding is if it has Quantum Crystalline Armor or it somehow absorbs the impact of all the kinetic energy from missiles and the plasma from primary weapons or some **** like that. It's impossible for the Gargant to be that way.
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The shivans did not have beam weaponry they had flux laser cannon or something like that. It was the speed with which those cannons fired that made them look like a beam weapon but it was not a beam weapon. This is cannon! I remebered it from the ref. bible.
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Well that doesn't do anything to my theory. The Lucifer fleet could be at a different technological level than the Sathanas fleet.
My theory kicks ass.
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Your thory may be true and i tend to agree with you to some extent but remember that the Collie was designed to take on multiple Lucifer class SD and win with ease. This makes me think that beams would of sliced through the Lucifer shields like a hot knife through butter.
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Both my theories kick ass. (my Shivan one and my shield one)
Who likes my theory? :D
Any points against it?
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Your thory may be true and i tend to agree with you to some extent but remember that the Collie was designed to take on multiple Lucifer class SD and win with ease. This makes me think that beams would of sliced through the Lucifer shields like a hot knife through butter.
actually i think they would. isnt that why they decided not to user shielding on capital ships once the FS2 era came around?
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Well from my understanding, if the Derelict campaign history is adopted into 'official' FS2 HLP 'history', then it means that all those Sathanas' weren't built, but BORN. :blah:
And if that intertwines with Infero, it would mean that the 'Gargant' is their mothership :eek2:
After all it did receive the classification 'SM Gargant'. (Shivan Mothership).
I reckon is probably the most probable theory. It would be much quicker for shivans to some how have some giant , living, breathing ship giving 'birth' to these warships, then using materials to construct them. Given the arachnid-like appearance of the ships, i think my theory is at least plausable.
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Well from my understanding, if the Derelict campaign history is adopted into 'official' FS2 HLP 'history', then it means that all those Sathanas' weren't built, but BORN. :blah:
Derelict =! Canon
After all it did receive the classification 'SM Gargant'. (Shivan Mothership).
I reckon is probably the most probable theory. It would be much quicker for shivans to some how have some giant , living, breathing ship giving 'birth' to these warships, then using materials to construct them. Given the arachnid-like appearance of the ships, i think my theory is at least plausable.
It's SH Gargant, for Shivan Hive.
It's possible, but unlikely IMO. The Terrans captured the Taranis, Dragon and a wing of Maras (most likely more), and they were able to easily reverse engineer them, so it's unlikely they were 'alive.'
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After all it did receive the classification 'SM Gargant'. (Shivan Mothership).
I reckon is probably the most probable theory. It would be much quicker for shivans to some how have some giant , living, breathing ship giving 'birth' to these warships, then using materials to construct them. Given the arachnid-like appearance of the ships, i think my theory is at least plausable.
It's SH Gargant, for Shivan Hive.
It's possible, but unlikely IMO. The Terrans captured the Taranis, Dragon and a wing of Maras (most likely more), and they were able to easily reverse engineer them, so it's unlikely they were 'alive.'
They didn't reverse engineer the taranis, remember? tombaugh station was destroyed before they could do much work on it.
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And the Mara and Dragon?
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well obviously they did reverse engineer those.
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Given time the GTVA would reverse engenier every single shivan tech and then improve it. Well they would need not only time but something to work on as well. And considering how fast they managed to reverse engenier those mara's i believe that within 2 maibe 3 years they would reverse engenier almost every shivan tech ! Sure there would lots of money and research done but hell it would be worth while.
Man just imagine if they got they hands even on a small cruiser like a Lilith or a corvette....man oh man....! The really sweet hing would be if they got theyr hands on a Ravana. Now that would be something worth getting excited about. Just imagine better beams better armour better subspace tech better fighters better ships (well when taking into acount all the + and - shivan warships and GTVa warships have the GTVA has the better ships, or rather ship designs that is!)
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It was probably very expensive, though.
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Well, on Derelict they probably tried reverse engineering the Lucifer and it triggered Shivan warships to come to its aid. I wonder what would have happened if the GTVA had managed to kill off the attackers and continue studying the Lucifer.
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Then i would have stolen it. ;)
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I wonder how the GTVA actually developed beam cannon weaponry.....
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Maybe they started to think and found out how to make decent weapons. :drevil:
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I'm willing to bet my head that the GTVA used stolen Shivan technology or were at least inspired by the Lucifer's beams that they made their own versions.
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I'm willing to bet my head that the GTVA used stolen Shivan technology or were at least inspired by the Lucifer's beams that they made their own versions.
i believe they made their own. isnt that why GTVA cannons are usually green while shivan cannons are yellow (like the licufers) or red (every other Shivan Warship)
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It's possible they were made independently, but it's unlikely since the Shivans in FS2 have much better beam weapons. It seems to imply to me that the GTVA are just trying to copy Shivan technology.
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And they failed at it.Shivan beams are faster stronger, and there ships scare the **** out of me. ;)
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Well as far as reverse negeniering the shivan tech I must agree that in terms of beam cannons the GTVA failed miserabli. GTVA beam cannons are somewhat of a piece of juck compared to they shivan counterparts. However one area where we see the GTVa made a relly good advance as comapred to the shivans was in terms of range for theyr beam cannons. There is no shivan beam cannon that can match the range of the GTVA ones. If they found a way to increase the sistained fire period and reacharge time then the GTVA warships would be a serious threat to any shivan warship that we know of. Hell if they managed to get a sustained fire period of 10 seconds like the shivan ones then even with the huge recharge rate they would be able to threaten even the jugg classes with ease.
Or they could just improve on the reacharge rate and get is equal to that of the shivan ones. that would work also. Combined with the superior range that would be ownage in terms of the GTVA!
theyr ships are scary no question here but are how shall I say this......junk. Aside from masive forward firepower they have nothing! Every time a shivan warship was put on the defensive it got blow to pieces much much fater then any GTVA warship.
Shivan warships are made for one thing and one thing only...attack and fast strykes at the enemy. Nothing more nothing less. In this regard the shivan are the masters. I fear to think what would happen if a species out there would find a way to make they ships strong enough as to resist shivans weaponry long enough so that theyr ships have a chance to hit back at the shivans.
They would be toats.
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There is no shivan beam cannon that can match the range of the GTVA ones. If they found a way to increase the sistained fire period and reacharge time then the GTVA warships would be a serious threat to any shivan warship that we know of.
Nope, the BFRed is only a few hundred meters short of the LRBGreen.
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Shivan ships also have crappy AF defenses... Hecate and Hatsephsut are a terror to go up against..
Ravana? Meh..Demon? LOL!!! Crappy armor on beams to boot, I can take out the beams on a Ravana with HARPOONS!
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It also explains how they have 80+ juggernauts and not a single lucy..
Considering what beam cannons do to shields, the Lucifer would be at a severe disadvantage in FS2.
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Why? It still has 800k hitpoints.
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In FS1 it has far less...how they keep changing...where's hte continuity here? EH?
EDIT -*does it even matter in FS2? You don't see it in the official campaign anyway, they might have left it in the tables without going over it for balance...
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The Lucy always had 800k HP.
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I recall it had 500000 in FS1..or was it 600000???
I could be wrong tough...
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but pressing ~k does 100k damage to your target...and you have to press ~k 10 times to destroy a lucy in fs2. That means it has a million HP in fs2.
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No, it definitely has 800k in both games.
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proven wrong yet again. *hint hint*
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the original FS1 and the FSPort have different numbers mind you....
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But the Lucifer always had 800k hitpoints.
ALWAYS
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Just checked...looks like you're right.. :blah:
I don't get that number..why that high? Maby becouse they didn't have capship shields implemented so [V] just thought to give it a whole lot of HP, but then saw that player can kill it no matter how many you put in and made it invulnerable?
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Why? It still has 800k hitpoints.
Because it has relatively low firepower for its size and poor coverage. An Orion broadsiding behind a Lucifer would at the very least severely damage it. The Colossus would have massacred it.
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Just checked...looks like you're right.. :blah:
I don't get that number..why that high? Maby becouse they didn't have capship shields implemented so [V] just thought to give it a whole lot of HP, but then saw that player can kill it no matter how many you put in and made it invulnerable?
To make sure you couldn't destroy it without blowing up the reactors in the final mission
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but you can just disable it and kill it there anyways for the kill :P
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Why? It still has 800k hitpoints.
Because it has relatively low firepower for its size and poor coverage. An Orion broadsiding behind a Lucifer would at the very least severely damage it. The Colossus would have massacred it.
EH? It has more firepower in FS1 than any other warship and it's not that big compared to other destroyers.
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Hmm.Im going to see which will win....A Hades Or a Lucy. :nervous:
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That depends.. does the Lucy get to use it's planetary bombardment cannons on the Hades?
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No but insted of Sreds(Which was a gay loadout) it will have Lreds.
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No but instead of Sreds(Which was a gay loadout) it will have Lreds.
Even shielded, i still think the lucy is overestimated given the "super destroyer" designation.
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The Hades won.Also since the Lucy has better beam placement, the Hades had a Bomber wing.
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Well it isn't entirely fair if the hades has bomber escort IMO.
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If the Hades and Lucy both have bomber escorts then.
No but instead of Sreds(Which was a gay loadout) it will have Lreds.
BFReds. <3
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Well IMO the hades goes over the Lucy and the Lucy goings under and can still pound it because of better beam placement.And the Hades' Beams are on top.The Hades got disabled after 15 seconds LOL. :lol:
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Ya, the hades has extremely weak subsystems for it's size. I wonder what else that destroyer relates to you? :P
:ha:, just kidding :P
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Juggy > Lucy > Hadey.
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Ya, the hades has extremely weak subsystems for it's size. I wonder what else that destroyer relates to you? :P
:ha:, just kidding :P
Note:If you click my name my location is the HADESMK2 Which kicks hades a$$. :P
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The subsytems were quite weak and we going off topic...
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um...ya...so how 'bout dem shivans?
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Probably, they blew up Capella to bridge the gap between this galaxy and theirs, so they can over come the solar wind stuff....
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or maybe the shivans had so many juggernauts they wanted to blow 'em all up to impress their god
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[BenderVoice]They Blew up Capella..... .....TO ACCESS THE MAIN FLEET!!!!MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA[BenderVoice/] :lol:
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[BenderVoice]They Blew up Capella..... .....TO ACCESS THE MAIN FLEET!!!!MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA[BenderVoice/] :lol:
oh really
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Well I think it's plausible. That's basically my own theory. They blew up Capella to 'reunite' with another large fleet. Motive can vary. To kill GTVA, to kill another species, or just a family reunion.
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Whatever the motive it must have been a extreemly important one if they were willing to sacrifice that many jugs...unless it was a fluke and they weren't suppose to lose that many (or any for that matter).
But then again, losing a destroyer and 500 fighters looks terrible to us, but the shivans kept loosing fighters/bomber like crazy during both wars like it was nothing. Maby a several jugs are also nothing for them...or at least they REGARD it as nothing...
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Yeah, I agree with Trash. Nova'ing Capella was certainly not something to be used to attack the GTVA. There was definitely something more important than just killing the GTVA.
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If the juggernaughts were expendable, i can't imagine what happens if the Shivans decide that they really wanna pwn the GTVA.
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I don't think they care about the GTVA.
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Umm the range of a LRBG is about 10k or 10.5 k if i.m not wrong! How is that anywhere neas the 6 or 7 k max range for the shivan beams??
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Umm the range of a LRBG is about 10k or 10.5 k if i.m not wrong! How is that anywhere neas the 6 or 7 k max range for the shivan beams??
Uh... What are you talking about?
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BFRed:
Range 7400 m
LRBGren:
Range 8000 m
0wned.
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600 meters...given that the Sath moves at 24m/s that gives a GTVA ship with a LRBGreen 25 seconds of free shooting...
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what the hell I alwais asumed that the diference in range between the GTVA beams and the shivan beams at least when it comes to the Long range beams was at least 2k. Man wa i wrong. Hell if that is the case then the GTVA really need to get some more range from its beams.
Also as for other species an idea came into mi head what if they do not use beams to battle the shivans ! What if they used something else something that would attack the very stuff the shivan warships are made of. Since it seem that the shivan warships have some sort of organic tech to them. Something that would resemble a beam yet it would not be a beam cannon as the GTVa ones but rather some sort of byo-acid-thingy-weapon or something like that used to inflict serious damage especialy to the shivans?
It is not all that outrageous since well nobody really though about designing a weapon specificly for the shivans. However such specialyzed weaponry would prove to be somewhat less efective against other types of armour or other civ. altoghether but it would still work i guess.
Such a species would also have to survive several shivan wars ! And for now the only entity that has survived 2 shivan wars has been the GTVA.
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Also as for other species an idea came into mi head what if they do not use beams to battle the shivans ! What if they used something else something that would attack the very stuff the shivan warships are made of. Since it seem that the shivan warships have some sort of organic tech to them.
The Shivans aren't stupid, remember that. Just because they haven't evolved their ships doesn't mean they won't. Besides, I DO NOT think that Shivan ships are organic AT ALL. The FS2 ships look a bit organic, but FS1 Shivans... Manticore? Scorpion? Alive? Eh?
Such a species would also have to survive several shivan wars !
Really? Technological superiority is a good weapon, but the Shivans have been roaming the universe for MORE THAN 8,000 years. They will not be outclassed by a race that has been spacefaring for less than a century.
And for now the only entity that has survived 2 shivan wars has been the GTVA.
Survived, yes. Won? No.
I think it's safe to say the GTA/PVN lost the Great War. One homeworld destroyed, another one cut off. Yes, we killed the Lucifer and the other Shivan ships, but that's nothing compared to the loss of an entire homeworld and so much of their fleets.
The second, I do not think the Shivans did much. If the Saths had decided to try and enter Vega or Epsilon Pegasi, the GTVA blockade would have done zilch. The Shivans only sent in cruisers and corvettes, and maybe a few destroyers, but not their Saths. Their Saths seemed as if they didn't give a damn about the GTVA battle, and only committed if they really needed to (Colossus). The Shivans didn't seem intent on invasion the second time round. THe GTVA survived, they did not win.
In addition, the GTVA is the only people who have survived these two wars that we know of. There could be quite a few other pockets of Shivan resistance that the GTVA does not know of. Considering the odds, I say there would be. They would inevitably be crushed, however.
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I still think that 24s won't really help if your ship is front of a fully armed Sathanas.
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That may be so but 24 s is still enough time to get off at leas 1 round of fire from all the beams on a warship! GTVA warship that is since with theyr ridiculous low eracharge rate..they wont get to hit it more then once before the Sath gets into weapons range. Now if we are talking about a shivan destroyer then that is another thing since with one salvo from all the beams you can really do some serious damage.
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Technicly, 25 seconds gives just barely enough time for 2 salvos..and hte GTVA ship should warp out then... However to be on the side of caution, fire one salvo and warp out far away to re-charge...warp in another ship behind the Sath...repeat process
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that is sort of hit and run tactic ! I do not really like this tactic but it is very efective in theory against superior armed forces.Howeverthis may prove efective for a limited amount of time. Since the shivans have a nasty habbit of increasing the number of ships deplyd very fast! also they rather more skilled at jumping ! They are not however more skilled at sensors which may give the GTVa an advantage. but when it comes to subspace perhaps they can predict or detect warships coming in from much further away then the GTVA is able. I'm not sure about this. Actualy all you need to make a joke out the Sath is to take out its forward beams! A few well aimed ****s at its forward beam and they should go down rather fast leaving the Sath toothless so to speak. So unless it can bite the only thing a Sath in that condition is good for is barkling or intimidation by presence that is all.
i do not really care about what kind of fighter/bommber compliment it has since it would be a waste of time to try and take out GTVa warships using that method. Just warp in a couple of Deimos 2 maibe 3 of them and with the fighter compliment from a Hecate you can make short work of those fighters and bommbers.
Hey guis do you think there is a posibilaty that the GTVA managed to attach some sort of stealth fighter on to one of those juggs? i mean it would be a very reasonalbe thing to dio and gather up intel without getting exposed. And when some of those juggs warp out they take the fighter with them?
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Or you can attach a beacon to it...like some scientists do today to track movements of shark and other animals...
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not exactly what would be ideal now would it? I do not believe a beacon would be able to report any findings if it would be posible or jump a few star sistems in order to get back to the proximaty of the GTVAspace..!
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They are not however more skilled at sensors which may give the GTVa an advantage. but when it comes to subspace perhaps they can predict or detect warships coming in from much further away then the GTVA is able. I'm not sure about this. Actualy all you need to make a joke out the Sath is to take out its forward beams! A few well aimed ****s at its forward beam and they should go down rather fast leaving the Sath toothless so to speak. So unless it can bite the only thing a Sath in that condition is good for is barkling or intimidation by presence that is all.
Ok, I'm assuming English isn't your first language, but proper grammar would be nice.
Anyways, the shivans definitely have superior sensors to the GTVA's. Thats how they were able to fight so affectively in the nebula. And your tactics are good ones, but i still think it's easier to just warp in an Orion behind the Sathanas and pound it from there.
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Actualy they sensors were superior untill the GTVA brought in that AWACS! After that to me it seemed like the GTVA had the upper hand in the battle of the sensors!
I'm not sayng you are wrong I just think it would take too much time! And time wasting is something you do not want to do when battleing the shivans!Beacuse as stated above they have a nasty habbit of bringing in more ships when you leat expect them and want them.
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I bet the Shivans have AWACs of their own. Hey, wait a minute, I don't recall the Shivans having any support ships. So how the heck do they rearm during a battle? I wonder if the Comm Node serve as an AWAC as well. Remember, the Shivans seem to have everything the GTVA can pump out and perhaps even more.
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Shivans didn't seem to use support ships, they were unconcerned with individual losses as such. They did have transports, which were used for resupplying capships but the fighters themselves were expendable to all appearances.
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Shivan fighters are expendible..so they dont' rearm..if they run out of milels they just use their primaries...They are supposed to be VERY powerfull (alltough they aren't really in-game)
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I think the Shivans rely alot on their primaries and their superior spacecraft. IMO, the Dragon is a hell of a beast to catch at Insane.
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The fact that they did not use any AWACS in the nebula leaves me to believe that such tech is not yet awaylable to them. or ather they di not bother with it because they believed they were suficiently advanced sensor wise and that building such a specialized ship would be a waste of time. Man were they wrong!
Also the fact that hey do not cae about theyr fighters leaves me to believe that perhaps at least some of they fighters are some sort of advanced drones.
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The problem you run into with "Warp in behind the Sathanas" is that the Sathanas will warp out, and re-emerge from subspace facing your ship. You'll then be raped by the 4 BFReds. I tried it with 5 Orions once in FRED. They got crushed in minutes.
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Eh? 5 Orions on the rear all firing all beams at once? I don't think the Sath would have time to warp out.
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Agreed 5 ORIONS did not manage to ake out a Sath?? that is IMPOSIBLE. From just one salvo they should be able to inflict more then anough damage to the Sath. How did they manage to lose that should have been ownage on the Orions part??
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Orions warped in, started firing, Sath warped out 30 seconds later, came out behind them.
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... And the Orions didn't warp out? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. But, regardless of that, 5 Orions head-on vs. 1 Sathy = Sathy gets KO'ed, I think.
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... And the Orions didn't warp out? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. But, regardless of that, 5 Orions head-on vs. 1 Sathy = Sathy gets KO'ed, I think.
They'd just warped in, they needed time to recharge their jump drives. That's why ideas like "The Colossus should have warped out and come out behind the Sathanas" don't work. Whoever uses subspace to gain an advantage is at a disadvantage because thier opponent will do the same.
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The problem you run into with "Warp in behind the Sathanas" is that the Sathanas will warp out, and re-emerge from subspace facing your ship. You'll then be raped by the 4 BFReds. I tried it with 5 Orions once in FRED. They got crushed in minutes.
Assuming the GTVA ship will stand and wait for it to come back...they will track it, see where it went...by the time the Sath re-charged it's jump drives, so will the GTVA ships...they jump to somewhere else, but leave a few scouts in case the sath returns.
If it does, it will realy the jump coordinates and they will be able to hit it again.
Then again the Sath can try and so something simialr too, but it can only go after one Orion at a time, and one it jumps in to attakc that one, the other 4 can rape it from behins. Eitehr way it isa game of cat and mice, but I think Orions are better off.
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I think Shivans have better warp technology. The Orions are basicly 1 shot KO if the Sathanas can bring its face to an Orion. But I think there are actually more Sathanases (How the heck do you get the plural of Sathanas), then Orions. Who knows how many ships the Shivans have. We haven't even seen a Shivan Installation.
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The problem you run into with "Warp in behind the Sathanas" is that the Sathanas will warp out, and re-emerge from subspace facing your ship. You'll then be raped by the 4 BFReds. I tried it with 5 Orions once in FRED. They got crushed in minutes.
Assuming the GTVA ship will stand and wait for it to come back...they will track it, see where it went...by the time the Sath re-charged it's jump drives, so will the GTVA ships...they jump to somewhere else, but leave a few scouts in case the sath returns.
I think the idea here is a nano-jump.
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Well, apparently bigger ship take longer to re-charge their jump drives.. the bigger the subspace "hole" your'e opning the bigger the energy requirements. A Sath is a lot bigger than a Orion.
And tactical mini-jumps are not possible.
The Sath can't jump right behind an Orion in one jump. He first needs to jump to some point B, re-charge it's jump drives and then jump back to point B +10000m to the left.
Funny thing - if a ship is too close to the Sath it can't turn to face it. I once had a Sath jump in, only I placed it too close in FRED and it stopped 5m from 2 Demios corvettes. Tehy were right inbetween his 4 arms and it couldn't fire... Needles to say, they destroyed the sath :lol:
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Trying to escape the impending Big Rip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_rip) by escaping to another dimension / universe. :eek2: :nervous:
I'm trying not to think about such things as "The Big Bang" and/or "The Big Rip"...........
It just gets me depressed.
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...said the Harbinger of DOOM!!!!!!!!!
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lawlz.
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lol
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Now i've gotten depressed...why did you have to bring the big rip thingy out.....???
Wait.....I wont live that long.......oh well.....nothing for me to worry about then eh....!
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Well, apparently bigger ship take longer to re-charge their jump drives.. the bigger the subspace "hole" your'e opning the bigger the energy requirements. A Sath is a lot bigger than a Orion.
Its got a lot more volume but the subspace hole wouldn't need to be that much bigger. Its size means its bound to have bigger reactors, and Shivan subspace technology is clearly better than Terran subspace tech.
And tactical mini-jumps are not possible.
The Sath can't jump right behind an Orion in one jump. He first needs to jump to some point B, re-charge it's jump drives and then jump back to point B +10000m to the left.
We don't know, there's never been a situation in FS where it would be practical as far as I can remember.
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TrashMan, intrasystem jumps can take you to anywhere within the system, so the Sath CAN just jump behind those Orions.
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Then again so can the Orions cant they??
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Yar, but the Shivans aren't stupid. Besides, so much jumping around and warping and stuff will most likely overload the engines of the Orions, but the Sath has more engines than all of the Orions combined.
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1 engine ver 6.Which do you think would win? :p
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All of the Orions combined have less engines than the Sath. Orions have 1 each, 1 x 5 = 5, but the Sath has 6.
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If one of those BFreds ht an Orion K.O. also. :P The Sathanas could out run them to.
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Actually two hits per Orion. But those BFReds have an insane recharge rate, and on insane they would rip apart the Orions before they even had time to recharge their jump drives.
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Well, apparently bigger ship take longer to re-charge their jump drives.. the bigger the subspace "hole" your'e opning the bigger the energy requirements. A Sath is a lot bigger than a Orion.
Its got a lot more volume but the subspace hole wouldn't need to be that much bigger. Its size means its bound to have bigger reactors, and Shivan subspace technology is clearly better than Terran subspace tech.
You're assuming the energy requirements scale linearly..what if htey are exponential? That would explain the big gap in time nad power needed for different ships sizes to jump.
And tactical mini-jumps are not possible.
The Sath can't jump right behind an Orion in one jump. He first needs to jump to some point B, re-charge it's jump drives and then jump back to point B +10000m to the left.
We don't know, there's never been a situation in FS where it would be practical as far as I can remember.
TrashMan, intrasystem jumps can take you to anywhere within the system, so the Sath CAN just jump behind those Orions.
There has never been a mention of a "tactical" jump or microjump in canon FS, alltough there were many situations where it would come in handy (Collie vs. Sath anyone?). Obviously, there's some minimal jump distance - it's not like you can jump 1m from your current position.
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All of the Orions combined have less engines than the Sath. Orions have 1 each, 1 x 5 = 5, but the Sath has 6.
A jump drive (SINGULAR) is fitted on every warship.
Engines DO NOT EQUAL jump drives..
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There has never been a mention of a "tactical" jump or microjump in canon FS, alltough there were many situations where it would come in handy (Collie vs. Sath anyone?). Obviously, there's some minimal jump distance - it's not like you can jump 1m from your current position.
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
Yar?
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A jump drive (SINGULAR) is fitted on every warship.
Engines DO NOT EQUAL jump drives..
True.
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Well, apparently bigger ship take longer to re-charge their jump drives.. the bigger the subspace "hole" your'e opning the bigger the energy requirements. A Sath is a lot bigger than a Orion.
Its got a lot more volume but the subspace hole wouldn't need to be that much bigger. Its size means its bound to have bigger reactors, and Shivan subspace technology is clearly better than Terran subspace tech.
You're assuming the energy requirements scale linearly..what if htey are exponential? That would explain the big gap in time nad power needed for different ships sizes to jump.
The Sathanas is exponentially bigger than the Orion in terms of volume.
And tactical mini-jumps are not possible.
The Sath can't jump right behind an Orion in one jump. He first needs to jump to some point B, re-charge it's jump drives and then jump back to point B +10000m to the left.
We don't know, there's never been a situation in FS where it would be practical as far as I can remember.
TrashMan, intrasystem jumps can take you to anywhere within the system, so the Sath CAN just jump behind those Orions.
There has never been a mention of a "tactical" jump or microjump in canon FS, alltough there were many situations where it would come in handy (Collie vs. Sath anyone?). Obviously, there's some minimal jump distance - it's not like you can jump 1m from your current position.
In High Noon it would not have been practical for the Colossus to nano jump, because the Sathanas would have done the same thing as soon as the Colossus emerged, which would put the Colossus at a tactical disadvantage.
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I don't think that ships need to turn around in subspace. You just need to travel in ONE STRAIGHT line.
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The Sathanas is exponentially bigger than the Orion in terms of volume.
no..just no...
In High Noon it would not have been practical for the Colossus to nano jump, because the Sathanas would have done the same thing as soon as the Colossus emerged, which would put the Colossus at a tactical disadvantage.
Wrong. The sath just jumped in, and in a perfect position to shoot at the Collie to boot, so it would have to charge up it's drives to jump again. If anything it is a PERFECT situation to nano-jump behind it and give it a broadside
That said, tactical nano-jumps have NEVER been mentioned or used and are theferefore NOT CANON. Why didn't the Psamtik nano-jump the 8000 meters? Why don't the ship nano-jump closer to the node when they're running away insted of moving slowly at the node? Why didn't the Bastion nano-jump?
It's quite clear that jumping is used for BIG distances only (and by big I mean something like a distance between 2 planets)
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Two points. Doesn't say two planets anywhere there. However, what I think is that nanojumps aren't possible without highly advanced navigation systems. And I mean ADVANCED. 's why we haven't seen nanojumps.
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In High Noon it would not have been practical for the Colossus to nano jump, because the Sathanas would have done the same thing as soon as the Colossus emerged, which would put the Colossus at a tactical disadvantage.
Wrong. The sath just jumped in, and in a perfect position to shoot at the Collie to boot, so it would have to charge up it's drives to jump again. If anything it is a PERFECT situation to nano-jump behind it and give it a broadside
Sathanas was there straight away in the mission. The Vasudan Briefing you says they're going to "Send in" the Colossus. That implys that the Colossus would be the one making the first aggressive actions.
That said, tactical nano-jumps have NEVER been mentioned or used and are theferefore NOT CANON. Why didn't the Psamtik nano-jump the 8000 meters? Why don't the ship nano-jump closer to the node when they're running away insted of moving slowly at the node? Why didn't the Bastion nano-jump?
It's quite clear that jumping is used for BIG distances only (and by big I mean something like a distance between 2 planets)
The Bastion and Psamtik didn't nano-jump because they'd just jumped in and wouldn't have recharged their jump drives. Theoretically its possible but tactically its suicide.
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Sathanas was there straight away in the mission. The Vasudan Briefing you says they're going to "Send in" the Colossus. That implys that the Colossus would be the one making the first aggressive actions.
I was refering to "Their Finest Hour".. the first one wasn't a real batlte anyway, with the detoothed sathanas..
The Bastion and Psamtik didn't nano-jump because they'd just jumped in and wouldn't have recharged their jump drives. Theoretically its possible but tactically its suicide.
It takes about a minute or so for an Orion to re-charge it's jump drives..the Psamtik jumped in and was going towards the portal. It would take it 10 minutes or so to travel to it, or 1 minute to re-charge and make a nano-jump. theres nothing tacticly unfeasable or unwise about it.
It stood there for 2-3 minutes before the Sath destroyed it.
And the Bastion didn't just jump in. It was in-system fora while, making it's way towards the node while being escorted. It could have shortneed it's trip witha nano-jump by it didn't.Why?
Ergo, I can give you more examples from both games. If FS1, the Bastion persuing the Lucifer..no nano-jumps to close in fast and it had two opportunities to do that (Clash of Titans and hte mission where you race towards hte node)
It is clear that you can't jump anywhere you want. There are limitations. There are some minimal distances between two points...
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I think that maybe subspace nodes suck up all the gravity in the area or something like that so you can't make nanojumps around them. In Their Finest Hour, the Colossus was disabled. Besides, the reason the Psamtik went wonky and jumped so far from the Knossos 2 was because the Portal had messed up their sensors.
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The Nebula also messes with sensors to. :P
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Yes, but the Psamtik said something about the Knossos interfering with their jump. Bouncing them somehow.
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I think that maybe subspace nodes suck up all the gravity in the area or something like that so you can't make nanojumps around them. In Their Finest Hour, the Colossus was disabled. Besides, the reason the Psamtik went wonky and jumped so far from the Knossos 2 was because the Portal had messed up their sensors.
1. ENGINES disabled...not the jump drives...alltouhg they sometimes seem linked.
IIRC, command told the Collie to jump out of there and they responded that they will stay (that means the jump drive was still in tact)
2. FS1, the mission where youre cathiching up with the lucifer? That Typhon jump in right above the node.
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In FreeSpace 1-2 they do nano jump.When something arrives from empty space that is a nano jump.Like the first mission.The Psamtik nano jumped.
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In FreeSpace 1-2 they do nano jump.When something arrives from empty space that is a nano jump.Like the first mission.The Psamtik nano jumped.
No, a nanojump is a tiny jump within the same mission boundries.
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Now i've gotten depressed...why did you have to bring the big rip thingy out.....???
Wait.....I wont live that long.......oh well.....nothing for me to worry about then eh....!
Yeah, but what about your soul?! Your soul will get schmushed just like living matter!
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Sathanas was there straight away in the mission. The Vasudan Briefing you says they're going to "Send in" the Colossus. That implys that the Colossus would be the one making the first aggressive actions.
I was refering to "Their Finest Hour".. the first one wasn't a real batlte anyway, with the detoothed sathanas..
Would have just been delaying the inevitable.
The Bastion and Psamtik didn't nano-jump because they'd just jumped in and wouldn't have recharged their jump drives. Theoretically its possible but tactically its suicide.
It takes about a minute or so for an Orion to re-charge it's jump drives..the Psamtik jumped in and was going towards the portal. It would take it 10 minutes or so to travel to it, or 1 minute to re-charge and make a nano-jump. theres nothing tacticly unfeasable or unwise about it.
It stood there for 2-3 minutes before the Sath destroyed it.
Knossos intefered which was why it emerged 10 klicks away
And the Bastion didn't just jump in. It was in-system fora while, making it's way towards the node while being escorted. It could have shortneed it's trip witha nano-jump by it didn't.Why?
It had been stripped out and filled with Meson Bombs.
Ergo, I can give you more examples from both games. If FS1, the Bastion persuing the Lucifer..no nano-jumps to close in fast and it had two opportunities to do that (Clash of Titans and hte mission where you race towards hte node)
It is clear that you can't jump anywhere you want. There are limitations. There are some minimal distances between two points...
Put it down to Jump Drives taking longer to recharge in FS1.
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Would have just been delaying the inevitable.
Isn't that what they were trying to do? Avoid dying..and making it as haard on the other guy as possible?
Or buying the Bastion as much time as possible? Nano-jumping would surely drag the battle longer, so wouldn't that be the perfect way to buy the Bastion time?
Knossos intefered which was why it emerged 10 klicks away
8 klicks..but granted
It had been stripped out and filled with Meson Bombs.
It still had jump drives..have you seen the ani at all? It jumped and detonated INSIDE subspace...as did the Neried
Ergo, I can give you more examples from both games. If FS1, the Bastion persuing the Lucifer..no nano-jumps to close in fast and it had two opportunities to do that (Clash of Titans and hte mission where you race towards hte node)
It is clear that you can't jump anywhere you want. There are limitations. There are some minimal distances between two points...
Put it down to Jump Drives taking longer to recharge in FS1.
absolutely NO proof whatsoever...
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Hmm, ok, my theory:
In-system jumps are basically the same as inter-system jumps, they rely on existing 'wormhole' or subspace tunnels. So, you have to use your Nav subsystem, find a node that is stable enough to lock onto, that also has an egress point to close to your destination. Notice that wings warp in next to each other... ergo, they use the same subspace tunnel, but open individual portals by which they access them. Once found, your subspace drive stabilizes and opens the node, and then your engines push you into the node (which is why, without engines, you can't jump).
Inter-system jumps rely on much larger and much more stable jump nodes that cannot possibly be stabilized by a ship (unless perhaps it is Shivan tech); therefore, they have to be stable enough to use without stabilizing; you only have to open one end and enter it.
Also perhaps affecting this is that if you notice, the Knossos stabilizes a jump node, so much that when it is destroyed, the node still exists... or that was a side effect of the destruction. So, if one ship stabilizes a node for in-system jumps and uses it, it should remain open for awhile, and other ships can use it too. If it collapses, the other ship just has to lock onto another node that opens into the same vicinity. Just my theory... basically, in-system nodes form and collapse all the time, and jump drives lock onto and stabilize them for use by a ship. Inter-system nodes are much bigger, and form and collapse at a slower rate, given their size. (This solves the mystery nodes to Sol, I think... the other ones were close to collapse, but naturally would have lasted a long time, but the Lucy's blowing up half in subspace affected them, because they open into the same vicinity as the node the Lucy used, and the Lucy was half-in, half-out.)
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Jr2, EXCELLENT theory. It also explains why one of your wingmen say "Subspace node activated" when they depart. :D
Can I adopt that for my own campaign?
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Would have just been delaying the inevitable.
Isn't that what they were trying to do? Avoid dying..and making it as haard on the other guy as possible?
Or buying the Bastion as much time as possible? Nano-jumping would surely drag the battle longer, so wouldn't that be the perfect way to buy the Bastion time?
Bastion was on the other side of the system. It was disabled anyway, that mission is....strange.
It had been stripped out and filled with Meson Bombs.
It still had jump drives..have you seen the ani at all? It jumped and detonated INSIDE subspace...as did the Neried
Yes, but its unknown whether it had a one shot drive installed like the Hermes, which would take up less space.
Ergo, I can give you more examples from both games. If FS1, the Bastion persuing the Lucifer..no nano-jumps to close in fast and it had two opportunities to do that (Clash of Titans and hte mission where you race towards hte node)
It is clear that you can't jump anywhere you want. There are limitations. There are some minimal distances between two points...
Put it down to Jump Drives taking longer to recharge in FS1.
absolutely NO proof whatsoever...
[/quote]
No, no proof, its just conjecture. But the whole idea of nano-jumping would explain why nobody's ever thought of ambushing a Sathanas or a Ravana with a few destroyers and corvettes from behind.
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For once Trashman I agree 100% with you on a subject.
I've seen no evidence whatsoever in the FS2 campaign that nanojumping is even possible and I agree with Trashman that there are several times when you might expect a ship to do it and it doesn't.
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Bastion was on the other side of the system. It was disabled anyway, that mission is....strange.
Yes..an by drawing the shivans attention to itself, the Collossus was buying it time. Why the Colossus was disabeld I do not know, but it could clearly jump. Normal engines (fusion drives) and jump drives are not the same..
It still had jump drives..have you seen the ani at all? It jumped and detonated INSIDE subspace...as did the Neried
Yes, but its unknown whether it had a one shot drive installed like the Hermes, which would take up less space.
Hermes is an escape pod...who sez it has a one-shot jump drive anyway? And it's not like thaere's lack of room in an Orion..
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Nope, you need engines to jump. If you are disabled, your jump drive works not.
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I don't see them tied directly..at least not with all ships..
I mean, the Collie was able to jump in their Final Hour (but it didn't).
"Colossus, we're pulling you out. Engage your subspace drive."
"Follow your orders Colossus, jump out of there now!"
Then again that Demon in Barebaiting wouldn't jump if you disabled it.
I guess it's up to a mission designer but it could go both ways.
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Seconded.The only time you see nano jumps is in Inferno R1.(Which has a bad story IMO).
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Bastion was on the other side of the system. It was disabled anyway, that mission is....strange.
Yes..an by drawing the shivans attention to itself, the Collossus was buying it time. Why the Colossus was disabeld I do not know, but it could clearly jump. Normal engines (fusion drives) and jump drives are not the same..
I don't think a ship in FS has ever jumped out when disabled.
It still had jump drives..have you seen the ani at all? It jumped and detonated INSIDE subspace...as did the Neried
Yes, but its unknown whether it had a one shot drive installed like the Hermes, which would take up less space.
Hermes is an escape pod...who sez it has a one-shot jump drive anyway? And it's not like thaere's lack of room in an Orion..
Says in it Tech Room description. Orion was packed with Meson Bombs, it would make sense for them to remove the engine and place a smaller one in if that was necessary to create a large enough explosion.
To clarify my position, I'm not saying there is any substantial evidence for nano-jumping being possible within the game, I'm saying there is no conclusive evidence against it, and no reason for it to be impossible. It would also explain a few things without resorting to the "Command is stupid, lol" line of argument.
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...
Can I adopt that for my own campaign?
Ahm, yeah, sure...
Now, about jumping out with disabled engines, what is the subspace drive supposed to do, pull the subspace vortex opening over the ship?? No, the engines push it forwards into the vortex... Unless jump drives also function as normal drives, in which case a disabled ship really wouldn't be disabled, now, would it? *shrugs*
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Or...the subspce vortext might actually pull the ship inside... Ships warping in/out go at uber-high speeds (300+ m/s).. no way their engines can push them that hard :lol:
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Well if it sucked it in why don't other ships get sucked in when a large warphole is opened?
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Becoause they don't vibrate in the same n-dimension.....
Read up on the subspace drive in the tech room:
"A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold."
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Hmm... True.
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I mean, the Collie was able to jump in their Final Hour (but it didn't).
"Colossus, we're pulling you out. Engage your subspace drive."
"Follow your orders Colossus, jump out of there now!"
The Colossus couldn't jump. It was disabled. The captain just saw a chance to be remembered as a hero by not reminding Command of that fact. :p
Simple fact though is that you shouldn't base ideas on Their Finest Hour without realising that there were some serious 11th hour hacks in that mission. The Colossus was not meant to be disabled at all in that mission as it was designed. It's not mentioned in the briefing that the Colossus is disabled nor any of the voice acting. The mission itself is strewn with waypoints and orders for the Colossus to follow them.
It seems fairly obvious that some time after the mission was voice acted :v: spotted an error in the mission and simply disabled the Colossus to get around it.
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You'd think they could stay up for 24 hrs and fix it... ! Just think of the overtime.
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forget about such little things! I like that mission just fine. Although the nova at the end sort marked me....or rather it cought me by surprise! But still very nice very nice.
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It seems fairly obvious that some time after the mission was voice acted :v: spotted an error in the mission and simply disabled the Colossus to get around it.
Wouldn't it be far....cleaner.... to just remove the waypoint commands? It can also be done it 15 seconds. :wtf:
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James Agay steps away from the computer after deleting all the waypoints. He presses Ctrl+S
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS CRAP YOU MESSED UP"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS CRAP YOU MESSED UP AGAIN"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS ORDER CRAP YOU MESSED UP"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS EXISTS NOT"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS WAYPOINT DELETED"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS WAYPOINT GO GET BRAD"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS WAYPOINT TELL J. SCOTT"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS OMG YOU SUCK"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS **** YOU ORDERED"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS BGREEN TURRET09"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS **** YOU SUCK"
"BEEP!! WAYPOINT COLOSSUS OMG LOL"
"BEEP!! SHIP COLOSSUS SHOULD BE CALLED ORCUS, THIS IS NOW AN INTERNAL ERROR LOL YOUR MISSION HAS BEEN CORRUPTED."
James Agay commits suicide.
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Not deleting the waypoints you dolt - removing the AI commands!
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James Agay deletes the event named "Colossus On Track."
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS ON TRACK DELETED CRAP YOU MESSED UP"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS CRAP YOU MESSED UP AGAIN"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS ORDER CRAP YOU MESSED UP"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS EXISTS NOT"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS EVENT DELETED"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS EVENT GO GET BRAD"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS EVENT TELL J. SCOTT"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS OMG YOU SUCK"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS **** YOU ORDERED"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS BGREEN TURRET09"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS **** YOU SUCK"
"BEEP!! EVENT COLOSSUS OMG LOL"
"BEEP!! SHIP COLOSSUS SHOULD BE CALLED ORCUS, THIS IS NOW AN INTERNAL ERROR LOL YOUR MISSION HAS BEEN CORRUPTED."
Seriously, what easier way is there than just lowering integrity of engines to 0?
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It seems fairly obvious that some time after the mission was voice acted :v: spotted an error in the mission and simply disabled the Colossus to get around it.
Wouldn't it be far....cleaner.... to just remove the waypoint commands? It can also be done it 15 seconds. :wtf:
But then it would move over to the Node to destroy the cruisers, and be out of place for when the Sathanas jumps in.
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Seriously, what easier way is there than just lowering integrity of engines to 0?
I said CLEANER..and not much more difficult...it would take 10 seconds more..Oh Ye GODS! How difficullt!
But then it would move over to the Node to destroy the cruisers, and be out of place for when the Sathanas jumps in.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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You're out of line, Trash.
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"Out of line? I don't think so! We're risking our lives out here - we deserve a straight answer!" ;7
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"You can discuss that at your debriefing. We now have reports that rebel vessels are heading for the node. Stand by for mission update. Command out."
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"Dammit! Command let this thread de-rail from topic!"
"Why? Why would they od that?"
"You tell me pilot! I'm informed on a need-to-know basis!"
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what were the shivan doing at cappella? having a barbecue of course! you know how fast you can cook a steak near a star? less than a second!
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No, it took them like ...more than 2 days :D
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that was because when they ran out of steak, they moved on too mashmallows. and they like 'em roasted sloooow.
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"Dammit! Command let this thread de-rail from topic!"
"Why? Why would they od that?"
"You tell me pilot! I'm informed on a need-to-know basis!"
"Stand down we're on your side here"
sorry couldn't resist i really tried
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:welcomeblue:
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And spam claims another topic